Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[OhayoKD]

If you have cp3 over Kobe you aren’t a real human being lmfao

Now is probably a good time to mention I only "humored" CP3>Curry on this board in exchange for a friend watching an episode of she-ra.


I'd honestly take Westbrook.

[HeartBreakKid]

Maybe? The gap between him and #10 is definitely bigger than him and #20 or even #25 probably. I don't have Durant or Nash in my top 20 but they're not much worse than the 16th best player of all time probably.


Some guys who are probably typically ranked lower than him that I think are better or at least their arguments are just as good when getting away from media stuff are Jerry West, Dr.J and Nowitzki.


I probably have him at 16 using a criteria most people use. But going with what I value then I'm big on peaks, so that would also mean I consider guys like Leonard, Wade and now Jokic. Very unsexy and unpopular picks due to their short careers. That would definitely push Kobe out of the top 15 for me.

[migya]

Does his longevity, which really only spans some 14 good seasons, add up to more than Robinson's and Moses's careers?

The impact those two had was greater than Kobe's.

[OhayoKD]

He's a comfortable top 10 if you just go by career-value I think. Might be a top10 peak in a vacuum but hard to say that's accurate relative to era

[OhayoKD]

4 of those Finals and 3 of the championships came alongside what a lot of people still consider the greatest peak of all-time in Shaq ahead of Jordan and LeBron and Kobe refused to get that guy the ball and actively drove him out of town because he wanted to be the alpha while shooting horribly in the biggest series. Another two of the Finals and one of the championships came with Kobe choking horribly down the stretch, getting bailed out despite some of the worst performances any superstar's ever had in decisive games. How much credit can you really give him for that?

Here's a fun fact for you. In Kobe's last 21 NBA Finals games, do you know how many of them he shot at least 50% from the field? ONE. That's it. Meanwhile, he shot under 35% from the field 8 times over that span. And that's a guy who makes his bones as a scorer. Who thinks he needs to take every shot because no one else can shoot as well as him. A guy who was praised for being unselfish in a game where he shot 6/24 with 2 assists and 4 turnovers. If you win while playing like ****, why does that make you better than someone who played amazing and didn't have the help from teammates to get it done?

Scottie Pippen wasn't as talented of a player as Kobe, but if they swapped careers, what do you think happens to their ring totals? I think it's very likely that Scottie wins more rings with the Lakers because he's able to accept his role and help Shaq succeed while Kobe would get less with the Bulls since he'd be fighting with Jordan about how he wanted to be the top guy and taking bad shots instead of getting a superior player the ball just like he did with Shaq in LA. Why should Kobe get credit as a top 15 guy for winning 5 rings on teams where guys that weren't even top 30 could do better?

Talk to me when other players you want to prop can get to the finals first. We should all know that they real batters were in the west, not the finals in the 2000s. When the players you support, like CP3 could not pass 2nd round until 32, KG passed the first round once in 11 years. 22 year old Kobe against Kings and Spurs averaged 34.1ppg at .495fg%, with 36/48/45/36p performances. KG's playoff career high was 35.

I already said Kobe was fantastic in 2001. Great year. Congrats. It’s also the only year in his first 9 playoff runs where his numbers were better than Jamal Murray’s career playoff averages.

Okay now adjust for era-inflation.

[OhayoKD]

It's the same two posters considerably and repeatedly undermining Kobe 'just because' with nothing behind it. I'm aware people (whose posts I enjoy and commend) in this thread and on the board in general are lower than I am, but are explaining so with nuance and a productive back and forth manner..

I wonder how much of the "because" is Kobe "was never the best player" because they couldn't be bothered to account for minutes played when gushing over KG's RAPM

[Ambrose]

I've never been a Kobe guy but there is no chance in hell I'm taking CP3 over him. The list of CP3 failures is a lot longer than Kobe's.

[AEnigma]

Shouldn't that tell you don't look at RAPM?

No, it tells me a great all-around player who’s a tremendous passer, playmaker, and defender who consistently makes his teams better year after year is more valuable than a pure scorer who’s too selfish to get his teammates involved or put in the same effort on D that he does scoring the ball.

The media did irreparable damage to Kobe’s legacy as a player man what are you talking about

Hate how media always prioritises RAPM over postseason success smh smh smh

Takes a lot to respond to someone placing Paul and Robinson over Kobe and take an even more unreasonable position.

[One_and_Done]

Era adjustment wouldn't be all good for Kobe. His me first attitude, and active refusal to take more efficient shots or play team ball, would translate terribly. At least Irving can play off ball and is efficient on 3s. Meanwhile Kobe already had a benefit most stars in his era didn't; stars like Shaq drawing in double teams and giving him open shots.

The benefits of the era wouldn't help Kobe unless he radically changed his game, which he adamantly refused to do throughout his career. This was crowned by his final 2 seasons, where his athleticism had waned to the point it was very obvious the team would be better served by him playing differently; and him not doing it.

[iggymcfrack]

Talk to me when other players you want to prop can get to the finals first. We should all know that they real batters were in the west, not the finals in the 2000s. When the players you support, like CP3 could not pass 2nd round until 32, KG passed the first round once in 11 years. 22 year old Kobe against Kings and Spurs averaged 34.1ppg at .495fg%, with 36/48/45/36p performances. KG's playoff career high was 35.

I already said Kobe was fantastic in 2001. Great year. Congrats. It’s also the only year in his first 9 playoff runs where his numbers were better than Jamal Murray’s career playoff averages.

Okay now adjust for era-inflation.

I meant in era-adjusted stats, not raw stats.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If you have cp3 over Kobe you aren’t a real human being lmfao

Or we just actually watched Kobe’s whole career? He gets a lot of credit for all the rings, but so often he just performed so **** **** when it mattered most. 2001 and 2009 are really the only playoff runs where he performed well start to finish.

1998: Finishes the decisive game with 4 straight air balls to get his team swept by the Jazz.

1999: 92 ORtg, 106 DRtg, and a .504 TS% in getting swept by the Spurs.

2000: Passable second banana for Shaq, but is still pretty inefficient with a .517 TS% for the postseason.

2001: Performs great as the Lakers coast and are never tested once.

2002: Another inefficient playoffs as his .511 TS% goes all the way down to .491 in the crucial series against the Kings where the Lakers get bailed out by the refs in a series they should have lost.

2003: Goes for 37% USG against the Spurs even though Shaq is much more efficient costing them a series they should have won.

2004: All-time saboteur series as he refuses to get the ball to Shaq who’s averaging 27 PPG on 17 FGA per game so he can score 23 PPG on 23 FGA per game and a .456 TS% leading to the biggest upset in Finals history.

2005: Misses the playoffs with a 34-48 record.

2006: Throws a temper tantrum at halftime of Game 7 against the Suns and decides he’s not going to make any attempt to get involved in the offense in the second half. Ends up with 0 points, 1 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals and 0 blocks in 19 minutes in the most important half of the season. Finishes with a PER of 19.9 and an on/off of -17.0 for the playoffs.

2007: Ugly, non-competitive first round loss where the Lakers are outscored by 52 points in 5 games.

2008: Plays pretty well until the Finals when he once again **** the bed, ending up with a team low .505 TS% for anyone playing at least 12 MPG, going 6/19, 8/21, and 7/22 in the last 3 games as the Lakers are -36 with him on the floor.

2009: Like 2001, doesn’t face any real competition and performs at peak level. This is one season where he actually looked like an MVP even if Bron and Wade were better.

2010: Finishes behind Pau in PER, WS/48, and BPM for the playoffs. Is a horrific 6/24 and 0/6 from three in Game 7 with 2 assists and 4 turnovers but gets bailed out by his teammates.

2011: Gets swept by Dirk’s Mavericks putting up a TS% of .519 with more turnovers than assists.

2012: Loses 4-1 in the second round with a TS% of .515.

2013: Gets injured, missing the playoffs

2014: Only plays 6 games due to injury.

2015: Team goes 10-25 in the 35 games he played

2016: Leads the Lakers to a 17-65 record in his final season


It always boggles my mind that Kobe gets a reputation as a “clutch” player when he so consistently performed so badly on the biggest of stages. He was a great regular season scorer, but he didn’t ever do much outside of scoring and the only guy I watched that I can think of whose scoring got so much worse in big games is Harden. Giannis and Jokic already have more good playoff runs than Kobe and neither one’s turned 29 yet.

I think people over simply volume scoring as TS and Volume which has always been pretty stupid. Someone has to take shots when the offense stagnates or when stuff doesn’t work lol.

Kobe did take some shots he didn’t have to take, and he made shots he didn’t have to make. The effect this has on his overall efficiency is pretty overstated.

In terms of offensive impact, D-Nice made a pretty good post about it awhile back, so I’d defer to that, but the noise and contextual factors in specific seasons has already been stated before

It’s been awhile since I’ve used synergy data but from what I recall he’s always been elite in halfcourt effeciency and relatively great in transition effeciency at least in the years of his name relative to other facets and that’s what brings his effeciency down

Anyways, I assume you are aware of this but true shooting percentage drops in the postseason. Former number is postseason average, second number is kobes average

1998 - 52.9/50.1
1999 - 50.8/50.2
2000 - 51.7/51.7
2001 - 51.1/55.5
2002 - 51.4/51.1
2003 - 52.5/53.1
2004 - 50.0/50.6
2006 - 54.7/58.7
2007 - 53.0/56.7
2008 - 53.2/57.7
2009 - 54.4/56.4
2010 - 54.3/56.7
2011 - 52.9/53.6
2012 - 52.0/52.5

Defenses faced

2000, 10th, 3rd, 5th, 13th
2001 9th, 7th, 1st, 5th
2002 13th, 2nd, 6th, 1st
2003 16th, 3rd
2004 5, 1, 6, 2
2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 10, 12, 3, 1
2009 10, 4, 8, 1
2010 9,10,23,5
2011 10,8
2012 20, 11


Bringing pre 2000 or post 2013 Kobe is crazy lol

There is perhaps some truth in the idea that 2001-2004 Kobes offensive value was limited because of Shaq, because isolation wing play was at its least effective in the 2000s and especially the early 2000s, and because Shaq was far more efficient than everyone else. But this would apply for everyone in a high scoring volume role on those Lakers teams.

2000 - his efficiency was fine. About league average for the playoffs, but taking averages is a bit dumb when a large part of it is because he had a pretty horrendous game 5 in the finals that brings his average down a full point or two

In any case, obviously you have the game 4 performance vs Indiana, where they’d be 2-2 if he doesn’t put up a banger. Obviously had some very key performances in that Portland series, in their closest wins, didn’t do much otherwise but this is a pretty early version of Kobe.

2001 - great dominant run

2002 - the kings series, again looking at overall TS does not paint a picture in a series. Here were his lines in the wins

Game 1
30-6-5, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 5 TO, 2 steals 2 blocks, 51.6TS
(12/26, 0/2 3pt, 6/7ft)

Game 4
25-4-2 45.8TS but 2 steals and 3 blocks
(12/26, 0/1 3pt, 1/3 ft)

Game 6
31-11-5 with 62.4TS
(10/20, 11/11 ft)

Game 7
30-10-7 with 2 steals, 49.3TS but no turnovers
(10/26, 2/3 3pt, 8/10ft)

He was mediocre in game 2, game 3 he and Shaq were both bad and it wasn’t competetive, and he sucked in game 5 and they probably win that game if he doesn’t

Not the best series but not remotely this disasterclass, and he was key in their victories

2003 -

Kobe averaged 32.3 ppg on 53.3TS this series against the 03 championship spurs defense

In 2003, the Spurs had an def rtg of 99.7. In the playoffs, this dropped to 98.2.

Their defensive rating against the Lakers were 103.6, compared to 104.0 playing against the Mavericks (who were a historic level offense over those 4 years with nash and dirk).

Game 1, their gap in effeciency was mainly just Shaq going 3/4 on putbacks, outside of that it was about the same

Game 2, sure, but Kobe started really chucking after the half where they were already down 17

Kobe was more effecient in game 3 and 4, in game 5 he was at 56.0 (36 points) while Shaq was at 58.5 (20 points). The off rtg in these 3 games were 119.6, 112.4, and 107.0 respectively too. Game 6 Shaq was far more effecient than Kobe and took more shots

Don’t see how Kobe costed them this series lol

2004 - it was a choke, but Shaq and Kobe literally did a segment on this lol it’s not as simple as “Kobe ego big he didn’t want to get the ball to Shaq”

2006 - they were down 25 going into that half btw. Using PER in 2023 is crazy

2007 - played well but yeah not competetive

2008 - playoffs with a back injury, dominant WCF run, not great vs the celtics. The Celtics were also this absurd defensive dynasty that focused all their defensive attention on Kobe since the spacing was stupid as hell back then lol
Ur being disingenuous saying they were -36 in the last 3 games when they were -35 in games 7 lol

2009 - great run obv

2010 - not as much defensive attention as 08 but still a ton, but yeah he was missing shots in game 7

Didn’t do great the next two years

Now, the thing is, ur comparing him to Chris Paul lmfao. Dominating and going to the finals and having a poor series does not compare to doing well in the first round and losing.


So breaking it down:

Was Kobe nearly as good as Shaq in the first three peat? Of course not.

Was he however, a key piece to the team that had a bunch of high level key performances in 2000 and 2002 that they probably don’t win without him or wi someone else replacing him? Yes.

In 2000, not as much, but it’s pretty clear that in the Portland series, he was a key 1B type contributor in game 3, and in game 7, he was fantastic considering his defense. Of course, in the finals, he has that game 4 performance, and considering how hot the pacers were the game after from three, and how it used to be 2-3-2, there’s a chance the series is 3-2 in favor of the pacers if he doesn’t have that performance.

Dominant 2001 1B super duo type run

In 2002, has some very key performances vs Sacramento in their wins, although definately lost them a game too.

Outside of 2001 they weren’t this dominant force that didn’t struggle on their way to the title, so the fact that they won these titles, and he was a key part of the key series, yeah that’s a pretty big part of the resume.

What we can say is that he put up superstar impact type performances comparable with shaqs in the same game in game 3 and 7 vs the blazers which were both determined by 5 each, obviously the pacers game 4 performance, game 1, 6, and 7 vs the kings. All of which are single digit victories





This is about halfway into my post before realgm logged me out and got this amount saved so I’ll rehash the rest of it later but it’s just the main points on people not understanding statistics or using them well in context and stuff about his effeciency being really good when looked at under the lens and CPOE just stuff hat has been rehashed a ton of times before

Ability =/= impact, you can’t blame players for being utilized in ineffectual ways if they’ve shown the ability to be effective in other ways

Kobes synergy profile always looked ridiculously elite, except in 2011 and 2012. 2007 was a year where iirc he basically just didn’t pass out of isolations and his impact was a tad lower then, but essentially, impact numbers aren’t gonna look good if you have another probably better #1 option with you for obvious reasons and the offensive approach isn’t that synergistic as much as your turn my turn type. From 06-10 it was generally great despite there being some pretty blatant noise issues with some of his teammates having random absurd outlier years in impact with no tangible change in play, that I’m assuming D-Nice mentioned, and it makes a jump again in 2013, mostly just from him being used a tad bit better as a screener + better alignment principles despite him declining heavily from that 06-10 period. It doesn’t make sense to excuse a player for a lack of talent and not do it for misutilization.

Anyways, I don’t see how a playoff “breakdown” for is when cp3 has more runs that get ruined from him being more fragile than the dude in my username than Kobe has titles lol


Idk why I took this much effort for an opinion that would be laughed at in mental wards with television lol, realgm really becoming a place where I wonder if people actually watch basketball, I for damn sure know that if you ask someone how to beat a specific pick and roll coverages like 5 users on the forum will be able to make a coherent response

[MyUniBroDavis]

If you have cp3 over Kobe you aren’t a real human being lmfao

Now is probably a good time to mention I only "humored" CP3>Curry on this board in exchange for a friend watching an episode of she-ra.


I'd honestly take Westbrook.

Shut up webby

[MyUniBroDavis]

Also I assume I don’t have to say this to anyone, so this isn’t directed at anyone specifically because I assume we all have some semblance of common sense, but if you think RTS is a way to compare volume scorers in the 2000s to now you are a fool and should not watch basketball

[iggymcfrack]

If you have cp3 over Kobe you aren’t a real human being lmfao

Or we just actually watched Kobe’s whole career? He gets a lot of credit for all the rings, but so often he just performed so **** **** when it mattered most. 2001 and 2009 are really the only playoff runs where he performed well start to finish.

1998: Finishes the decisive game with 4 straight air balls to get his team swept by the Jazz.

1999: 92 ORtg, 106 DRtg, and a .504 TS% in getting swept by the Spurs.

2000: Passable second banana for Shaq, but is still pretty inefficient with a .517 TS% for the postseason.

2001: Performs great as the Lakers coast and are never tested once.

2002: Another inefficient playoffs as his .511 TS% goes all the way down to .491 in the crucial series against the Kings where the Lakers get bailed out by the refs in a series they should have lost.

2003: Goes for 37% USG against the Spurs even though Shaq is much more efficient costing them a series they should have won.

2004: All-time saboteur series as he refuses to get the ball to Shaq who’s averaging 27 PPG on 17 FGA per game so he can score 23 PPG on 23 FGA per game and a .456 TS% leading to the biggest upset in Finals history.

2005: Misses the playoffs with a 34-48 record.

2006: Throws a temper tantrum at halftime of Game 7 against the Suns and decides he’s not going to make any attempt to get involved in the offense in the second half. Ends up with 0 points, 1 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals and 0 blocks in 19 minutes in the most important half of the season. Finishes with a PER of 19.9 and an on/off of -17.0 for the playoffs.

2007: Ugly, non-competitive first round loss where the Lakers are outscored by 52 points in 5 games.

2008: Plays pretty well until the Finals when he once again **** the bed, ending up with a team low .505 TS% for anyone playing at least 12 MPG, going 6/19, 8/21, and 7/22 in the last 3 games as the Lakers are -36 with him on the floor.

2009: Like 2001, doesn’t face any real competition and performs at peak level. This is one season where he actually looked like an MVP even if Bron and Wade were better.

2010: Finishes behind Pau in PER, WS/48, and BPM for the playoffs. Is a horrific 6/24 and 0/6 from three in Game 7 with 2 assists and 4 turnovers but gets bailed out by his teammates.

2011: Gets swept by Dirk’s Mavericks putting up a TS% of .519 with more turnovers than assists.

2012: Loses 4-1 in the second round with a TS% of .515.

2013: Gets injured, missing the playoffs

2014: Only plays 6 games due to injury.

2015: Team goes 10-25 in the 35 games he played

2016: Leads the Lakers to a 17-65 record in his final season


It always boggles my mind that Kobe gets a reputation as a “clutch” player when he so consistently performed so badly on the biggest of stages. He was a great regular season scorer, but he didn’t ever do much outside of scoring and the only guy I watched that I can think of whose scoring got so much worse in big games is Harden. Giannis and Jokic already have more good playoff runs than Kobe and neither one’s turned 29 yet.

I think people over simply volume scoring as TS and Volume which has always been pretty stupid. Someone has to take shots when the offense stagnates or when stuff doesn’t work lol.

Kobe did take some shots he didn’t have to take, and he made shots he didn’t have to make. The effect this has on his overall efficiency is pretty overstated.

In terms of offensive impact, D-Nice made a pretty good post about it awhile back, so I’d defer to that, but the noise and contextual factors in specific seasons has already been stated before

It’s been awhile since I’ve used synergy data but from what I recall he’s always been elite in halfcourt effeciency and relatively great in transition effeciency at least in the years of his name relative to other facets and that’s what brings his effeciency down

Anyways, I assume you are aware of this but true shooting percentage drops in the postseason. Former number is postseason average, second number is kobes average

1998 - 52.9/50.1
1999 - 50.8/50.2
2000 - 51.7/51.7
2001 - 51.1/55.5
2002 - 51.4/51.1
2003 - 52.5/53.1
2004 - 50.0/50.6
2006 - 54.7/58.7
2007 - 53.0/56.7
2008 - 53.2/57.7
2009 - 54.4/56.4
2010 - 54.3/56.7
2011 - 52.9/53.6
2012 - 52.0/52.5

Defenses faced

2000, 10th, 3rd, 5th, 13th
2001 9th, 7th, 1st, 5th
2002 13th, 2nd, 6th, 1st
2003 16th, 3rd
2004 5, 1, 6, 2
2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 10, 12, 3, 1
2009 10, 4, 8, 1
2010 9,10,23,5
2011 10,8
2012 20, 11


Bringing pre 2000 or post 2013 Kobe is crazy lol

There is perhaps some truth in the idea that 2001-2004 Kobes offensive value was limited because of Shaq, because isolation wing play was at its least effective in the 2000s and especially the early 2000s, and because Shaq was far more efficient than everyone else. But this would apply for everyone in a high scoring volume role on those Lakers teams.

2000 - his efficiency was fine. About league average for the playoffs, but taking averages is a bit dumb when a large part of it is because he had a pretty horrendous game 5 in the finals that brings his average down a full point or two

In any case, obviously you have the game 4 performance vs Indiana, where they’d be 2-2 if he doesn’t put up a banger. Obviously had some very key performances in that Portland series, in their closest wins, didn’t do much otherwise but this is a pretty early version of Kobe.

2001 - great dominant run

2002 - the kings series, again looking at overall TS does not paint a picture in a series. Here were his lines in the wins

Game 1
30-6-5, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 5 TO, 2 steals 2 blocks, 51.6TS
(12/26, 0/2 3pt, 6/7ft)

Game 4
25-4-2 45.8TS but 2 steals and 3 blocks
(12/26, 0/1 3pt, 1/3 ft)

Game 6
31-11-5 with 62.4TS
(10/20, 11/11 ft)

Game 7
30-10-7 with 2 steals, 49.3TS but no turnovers
(10/26, 2/3 3pt, 8/10ft)

He was mediocre in game 2, game 3 he and Shaq were both bad and it wasn’t competetive, and he sucked in game 5 and they probably win that game if he doesn’t

Not the best series but not remotely this disasterclass, and he was key in their victories

2003 -

Kobe averaged 32.3 ppg on 53.3TS this series against the 03 championship spurs defense

In 2003, the Spurs had an def rtg of 99.7. In the playoffs, this dropped to 98.2.

Their defensive rating against the Lakers were 103.6, compared to 104.0 playing against the Mavericks (who were a historic level offense over those 4 years with nash and dirk).

Game 1, their gap in effeciency was mainly just Shaq going 3/4 on putbacks, outside of that it was about the same

Game 2, sure, but Kobe started really chucking after the half where they were already down 17

Kobe was more effecient in game 3 and 4, in game 5 he was at 56.0 (36 points) while Shaq was at 58.5 (20 points). The off rtg in these 3 games were 119.6, 112.4, and 107.0 respectively too. Game 6 Shaq was far more effecient than Kobe and took more shots

Don’t see how Kobe costed them this series lol

2004 - it was a choke, but Shaq and Kobe literally did a segment on this lol it’s not as simple as “Kobe ego big he didn’t want to get the ball to Shaq”

2006 - they were down 25 going into that half btw. Using PER in 2023 is crazy

2007 - played well but yeah not competetive

2008 - playoffs with a back injury, dominant WCF run, not great vs the celtics. The Celtics were also this absurd defensive dynasty that focused all their defensive attention on Kobe since the spacing was stupid as hell back then lol
Ur being disingenuous saying they were -36 in the last 3 games when they were -35 in games 7 lol

2009 - great run obv

2010 - not as much defensive attention as 08 but still a ton, but yeah he was missing shots in game 7

Didn’t do great the next two years

Now, the thing is, ur comparing him to Chris Paul lmfao. Dominating and going to the finals and having a poor series does not compare to doing well in the first round and losing.


So breaking it down:

Was Kobe nearly as good as Shaq in the first three peat? Of course not.

Was he however, a key piece to the team that had a bunch of high level key performances in 2000 and 2002 that they probably don’t win without him or wi someone else replacing him? Yes.

In 2000, not as much, but it’s pretty clear that in the Portland series, he was a key 1B type contributor in game 3, and in game 7, he was fantastic considering his defense. Of course, in the finals, he has that game 4 performance, and considering how hot the pacers were the game after from three, and how it used to be 2-3-2, there’s a chance the series is 3-2 in favor of the pacers if he doesn’t have that performance.

Dominant 2001 1B super duo type run

In 2002, has some very key performances vs Sacramento in their wins, although definately lost them a game too.

Outside of 2001 they weren’t this dominant force that didn’t struggle on their way to the title, so the fact that they won these titles, and he was a key part of the key series, yeah that’s a pretty big part of the resume.

What we can say is that he put up superstar impact type performances comparable with shaqs in the same game in game 3 and 7 vs the blazers which were both determined by 5 each, obviously the pacers game 4 performance, game 1, 6, and 7 vs the kings. All of which are single digit victories



This is about halfway into my post before realgm logged me out and got this amount saved so I’ll rehash the rest of it later but it’s just the main points on people not understanding statistics or using them well in context and stuff about his effeciency being really good when looked at under the lens and CPOE just stuff hat has been rehashed a ton of times before

Idk why I took this much effort for an opinion that would be laughed at in mental wards with television lol, realgm really becoming a place where I wonder if people actually watch basketball, I for damn sure know that if you ask someone how to beat a specific pick and roll coverages like 5 users on the forum will be able to make a coherent response

The Lakers weren’t down 25 at half against the Suns in Game 7 in 2006, they were down 15. It was 60-45. MASSIVE difference. There was (an admittedly stupid) media narrative at the time that Kobe’s scoring was costing the Lakers wins because he scored more in the losses than the wins so in order to make a point that the Lakers are worse without him scoring, he literally tanked the second half of a very winnable Game 7. I was a Kobe fan at the time and I hung my head in shame afterwards disgusted with what I’d just watched. It’s literally the most embarrassing quitting incident I’ve ever seen. Worse than Pippen refusing to go in for the final shot against the Knicks. 1000x worse than any of LeBron’s so called “quitting incidents” where he put up triple doubles. An all-time embarrassment.

And PER has its issues, but it’s league adjusted which makes it good to compare across eras and the #1 issue it has is to overrate high volume scorers who don’t play defense which is 2006 Kobe to a tee. He’s the exact definition of the kind of player PER would overrate. If you want to use WS/48 instead Kobe had 0.87 which is worse than KG ever did in the playoffs after his age 21 season, worse than CP3 ever did after his age 23 season (when he played 5 games injured), as bad as Stockton ever did until his age 40 season, worse than Dirk did from age 21 to age 39, worse than Curry ever did, and worse than Harden ever did. It was an all-time disaster class.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Or we just actually watched Kobe’s whole career? He gets a lot of credit for all the rings, but so often he just performed so **** **** when it mattered most. 2001 and 2009 are really the only playoff runs where he performed well start to finish.

1998: Finishes the decisive game with 4 straight air balls to get his team swept by the Jazz.

1999: 92 ORtg, 106 DRtg, and a .504 TS% in getting swept by the Spurs.

2000: Passable second banana for Shaq, but is still pretty inefficient with a .517 TS% for the postseason.

2001: Performs great as the Lakers coast and are never tested once.

2002: Another inefficient playoffs as his .511 TS% goes all the way down to .491 in the crucial series against the Kings where the Lakers get bailed out by the refs in a series they should have lost.

2003: Goes for 37% USG against the Spurs even though Shaq is much more efficient costing them a series they should have won.

2004: All-time saboteur series as he refuses to get the ball to Shaq who’s averaging 27 PPG on 17 FGA per game so he can score 23 PPG on 23 FGA per game and a .456 TS% leading to the biggest upset in Finals history.

2005: Misses the playoffs with a 34-48 record.

2006: Throws a temper tantrum at halftime of Game 7 against the Suns and decides he’s not going to make any attempt to get involved in the offense in the second half. Ends up with 0 points, 1 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals and 0 blocks in 19 minutes in the most important half of the season. Finishes with a PER of 19.9 and an on/off of -17.0 for the playoffs.

2007: Ugly, non-competitive first round loss where the Lakers are outscored by 52 points in 5 games.

2008: Plays pretty well until the Finals when he once again **** the bed, ending up with a team low .505 TS% for anyone playing at least 12 MPG, going 6/19, 8/21, and 7/22 in the last 3 games as the Lakers are -36 with him on the floor.

2009: Like 2001, doesn’t face any real competition and performs at peak level. This is one season where he actually looked like an MVP even if Bron and Wade were better.

2010: Finishes behind Pau in PER, WS/48, and BPM for the playoffs. Is a horrific 6/24 and 0/6 from three in Game 7 with 2 assists and 4 turnovers but gets bailed out by his teammates.

2011: Gets swept by Dirk’s Mavericks putting up a TS% of .519 with more turnovers than assists.

2012: Loses 4-1 in the second round with a TS% of .515.

2013: Gets injured, missing the playoffs

2014: Only plays 6 games due to injury.

2015: Team goes 10-25 in the 35 games he played

2016: Leads the Lakers to a 17-65 record in his final season


It always boggles my mind that Kobe gets a reputation as a “clutch” player when he so consistently performed so badly on the biggest of stages. He was a great regular season scorer, but he didn’t ever do much outside of scoring and the only guy I watched that I can think of whose scoring got so much worse in big games is Harden. Giannis and Jokic already have more good playoff runs than Kobe and neither one’s turned 29 yet.

I think people over simply volume scoring as TS and Volume which has always been pretty stupid. Someone has to take shots when the offense stagnates or when stuff doesn’t work lol.

Kobe did take some shots he didn’t have to take, and he made shots he didn’t have to make. The effect this has on his overall efficiency is pretty overstated.

In terms of offensive impact, D-Nice made a pretty good post about it awhile back, so I’d defer to that, but the noise and contextual factors in specific seasons has already been stated before

It’s been awhile since I’ve used synergy data but from what I recall he’s always been elite in halfcourt effeciency and relatively great in transition effeciency at least in the years of his name relative to other facets and that’s what brings his effeciency down

Anyways, I assume you are aware of this but true shooting percentage drops in the postseason. Former number is postseason average, second number is kobes average

1998 - 52.9/50.1
1999 - 50.8/50.2
2000 - 51.7/51.7
2001 - 51.1/55.5
2002 - 51.4/51.1
2003 - 52.5/53.1
2004 - 50.0/50.6
2006 - 54.7/58.7
2007 - 53.0/56.7
2008 - 53.2/57.7
2009 - 54.4/56.4
2010 - 54.3/56.7
2011 - 52.9/53.6
2012 - 52.0/52.5

Defenses faced

2000, 10th, 3rd, 5th, 13th
2001 9th, 7th, 1st, 5th
2002 13th, 2nd, 6th, 1st
2003 16th, 3rd
2004 5, 1, 6, 2
2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 10, 12, 3, 1
2009 10, 4, 8, 1
2010 9,10,23,5
2011 10,8
2012 20, 11


Bringing pre 2000 or post 2013 Kobe is crazy lol

There is perhaps some truth in the idea that 2001-2004 Kobes offensive value was limited because of Shaq, because isolation wing play was at its least effective in the 2000s and especially the early 2000s, and because Shaq was far more efficient than everyone else. But this would apply for everyone in a high scoring volume role on those Lakers teams.

2000 - his efficiency was fine. About league average for the playoffs, but taking averages is a bit dumb when a large part of it is because he had a pretty horrendous game 5 in the finals that brings his average down a full point or two

In any case, obviously you have the game 4 performance vs Indiana, where they’d be 2-2 if he doesn’t put up a banger. Obviously had some very key performances in that Portland series, in their closest wins, didn’t do much otherwise but this is a pretty early version of Kobe.

2001 - great dominant run

2002 - the kings series, again looking at overall TS does not paint a picture in a series. Here were his lines in the wins

Game 1
30-6-5, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 5 TO, 2 steals 2 blocks, 51.6TS
(12/26, 0/2 3pt, 6/7ft)

Game 4
25-4-2 45.8TS but 2 steals and 3 blocks
(12/26, 0/1 3pt, 1/3 ft)

Game 6
31-11-5 with 62.4TS
(10/20, 11/11 ft)

Game 7
30-10-7 with 2 steals, 49.3TS but no turnovers
(10/26, 2/3 3pt, 8/10ft)

He was mediocre in game 2, game 3 he and Shaq were both bad and it wasn’t competetive, and he sucked in game 5 and they probably win that game if he doesn’t

Not the best series but not remotely this disasterclass, and he was key in their victories

2003 -

Kobe averaged 32.3 ppg on 53.3TS this series against the 03 championship spurs defense

In 2003, the Spurs had an def rtg of 99.7. In the playoffs, this dropped to 98.2.

Their defensive rating against the Lakers were 103.6, compared to 104.0 playing against the Mavericks (who were a historic level offense over those 4 years with nash and dirk).

Game 1, their gap in effeciency was mainly just Shaq going 3/4 on putbacks, outside of that it was about the same

Game 2, sure, but Kobe started really chucking after the half where they were already down 17

Kobe was more effecient in game 3 and 4, in game 5 he was at 56.0 (36 points) while Shaq was at 58.5 (20 points). The off rtg in these 3 games were 119.6, 112.4, and 107.0 respectively too. Game 6 Shaq was far more effecient than Kobe and took more shots

Don’t see how Kobe costed them this series lol

2004 - it was a choke, but Shaq and Kobe literally did a segment on this lol it’s not as simple as “Kobe ego big he didn’t want to get the ball to Shaq”

2006 - they were down 25 going into that half btw. Using PER in 2023 is crazy

2007 - played well but yeah not competetive

2008 - playoffs with a back injury, dominant WCF run, not great vs the celtics. The Celtics were also this absurd defensive dynasty that focused all their defensive attention on Kobe since the spacing was stupid as hell back then lol
Ur being disingenuous saying they were -36 in the last 3 games when they were -35 in games 7 lol

2009 - great run obv

2010 - not as much defensive attention as 08 but still a ton, but yeah he was missing shots in game 7

Didn’t do great the next two years

Now, the thing is, ur comparing him to Chris Paul lmfao. Dominating and going to the finals and having a poor series does not compare to doing well in the first round and losing.


So breaking it down:

Was Kobe nearly as good as Shaq in the first three peat? Of course not.

Was he however, a key piece to the team that had a bunch of high level key performances in 2000 and 2002 that they probably don’t win without him or wi someone else replacing him? Yes.

In 2000, not as much, but it’s pretty clear that in the Portland series, he was a key 1B type contributor in game 3, and in game 7, he was fantastic considering his defense. Of course, in the finals, he has that game 4 performance, and considering how hot the pacers were the game after from three, and how it used to be 2-3-2, there’s a chance the series is 3-2 in favor of the pacers if he doesn’t have that performance.

Dominant 2001 1B super duo type run

In 2002, has some very key performances vs Sacramento in their wins, although definately lost them a game too.

Outside of 2001 they weren’t this dominant force that didn’t struggle on their way to the title, so the fact that they won these titles, and he was a key part of the key series, yeah that’s a pretty big part of the resume.

What we can say is that he put up superstar impact type performances comparable with shaqs in the same game in game 3 and 7 vs the blazers which were both determined by 5 each, obviously the pacers game 4 performance, game 1, 6, and 7 vs the kings. All of which are single digit victories



This is about halfway into my post before realgm logged me out and got this amount saved so I’ll rehash the rest of it later but it’s just the main points on people not understanding statistics or using them well in context and stuff about his effeciency being really good when looked at under the lens and CPOE just stuff hat has been rehashed a ton of times before

Idk why I took this much effort for an opinion that would be laughed at in mental wards with television lol, realgm really becoming a place where I wonder if people actually watch basketball, I for damn sure know that if you ask someone how to beat a specific pick and roll coverages like 5 users on the forum will be able to make a coherent response

The Lakers weren’t down 25 at half against the Suns in Game 7 in 2006, they were down 15. It was 60-45. MASSIVE difference. There was (an admittedly stupid) media narrative at the time that Kobe’s scoring was costing the Lakers wins because he scored more in the losses than the wins so in order to make a point that the Lakers are worse without him scoring, he literally tanked the second half of a very winnable Game 7. I was a Kobe fan at the time and O hung my head in shame afterwards disgusted with what I’d seen. It’s literally the most embarrassing quitting incident I’ve ever seen. Worse than Pippen refusing to go in for the final shot against the Knicks. 1000x worse than any of LeBron’s so called “quitting incidents” where he’s putting up triple doubles. An all-time embarrassment.

And PER has its issues, but it’s league adjusted which makes it good to compare across eras and the #1 issue it has is to overrate high volume scorers who don’t play defense which is 2006 Kobe to a tee. He’s the exact definition of the kind of player PER would overrate. If you want to use WS/48 instead Kobe had 0.87 which is worse than KG ever did in the playoffs after his age 21 season, worse than CP3 ever did after his age 23 season (when he played 5 games injured), as bad as Stockton ever did until his age 40 season, worse than Dirk did from age 21 to age 39, worse than Curry ever did, and worse than Harden ever did. It was an all-time disaster class.

Myb on the first one, saw it wrong


I refuse to believe I just got hit with “oh well if you don’t like that I have win shares!”

Supporting cp3 and Calling the 06 first round an all time disaster class… yeah lol this conversation is done

[iggymcfrack]

I think people over simply volume scoring as TS and Volume which has always been pretty stupid. Someone has to take shots when the offense stagnates or when stuff doesn’t work lol.

Kobe did take some shots he didn’t have to take, and he made shots he didn’t have to make. The effect this has on his overall efficiency is pretty overstated.

In terms of offensive impact, D-Nice made a pretty good post about it awhile back, so I’d defer to that, but the noise and contextual factors in specific seasons has already been stated before

It’s been awhile since I’ve used synergy data but from what I recall he’s always been elite in halfcourt effeciency and relatively great in transition effeciency at least in the years of his name relative to other facets and that’s what brings his effeciency down

Anyways, I assume you are aware of this but true shooting percentage drops in the postseason. Former number is postseason average, second number is kobes average

1998 - 52.9/50.1
1999 - 50.8/50.2
2000 - 51.7/51.7
2001 - 51.1/55.5
2002 - 51.4/51.1
2003 - 52.5/53.1
2004 - 50.0/50.6
2006 - 54.7/58.7
2007 - 53.0/56.7
2008 - 53.2/57.7
2009 - 54.4/56.4
2010 - 54.3/56.7
2011 - 52.9/53.6
2012 - 52.0/52.5

Defenses faced

2000, 10th, 3rd, 5th, 13th
2001 9th, 7th, 1st, 5th
2002 13th, 2nd, 6th, 1st
2003 16th, 3rd
2004 5, 1, 6, 2
2006 16th
2007 13th
2008 10, 12, 3, 1
2009 10, 4, 8, 1
2010 9,10,23,5
2011 10,8
2012 20, 11


Bringing pre 2000 or post 2013 Kobe is crazy lol

There is perhaps some truth in the idea that 2001-2004 Kobes offensive value was limited because of Shaq, because isolation wing play was at its least effective in the 2000s and especially the early 2000s, and because Shaq was far more efficient than everyone else. But this would apply for everyone in a high scoring volume role on those Lakers teams.

2000 - his efficiency was fine. About league average for the playoffs, but taking averages is a bit dumb when a large part of it is because he had a pretty horrendous game 5 in the finals that brings his average down a full point or two

In any case, obviously you have the game 4 performance vs Indiana, where they’d be 2-2 if he doesn’t put up a banger. Obviously had some very key performances in that Portland series, in their closest wins, didn’t do much otherwise but this is a pretty early version of Kobe.

2001 - great dominant run

2002 - the kings series, again looking at overall TS does not paint a picture in a series. Here were his lines in the wins

Game 1
30-6-5, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 5 TO, 2 steals 2 blocks, 51.6TS
(12/26, 0/2 3pt, 6/7ft)

Game 4
25-4-2 45.8TS but 2 steals and 3 blocks
(12/26, 0/1 3pt, 1/3 ft)

Game 6
31-11-5 with 62.4TS
(10/20, 11/11 ft)

Game 7
30-10-7 with 2 steals, 49.3TS but no turnovers
(10/26, 2/3 3pt, 8/10ft)

He was mediocre in game 2, game 3 he and Shaq were both bad and it wasn’t competetive, and he sucked in game 5 and they probably win that game if he doesn’t

Not the best series but not remotely this disasterclass, and he was key in their victories

2003 -

Kobe averaged 32.3 ppg on 53.3TS this series against the 03 championship spurs defense

In 2003, the Spurs had an def rtg of 99.7. In the playoffs, this dropped to 98.2.

Their defensive rating against the Lakers were 103.6, compared to 104.0 playing against the Mavericks (who were a historic level offense over those 4 years with nash and dirk).

Game 1, their gap in effeciency was mainly just Shaq going 3/4 on putbacks, outside of that it was about the same

Game 2, sure, but Kobe started really chucking after the half where they were already down 17

Kobe was more effecient in game 3 and 4, in game 5 he was at 56.0 (36 points) while Shaq was at 58.5 (20 points). The off rtg in these 3 games were 119.6, 112.4, and 107.0 respectively too. Game 6 Shaq was far more effecient than Kobe and took more shots

Don’t see how Kobe costed them this series lol

2004 - it was a choke, but Shaq and Kobe literally did a segment on this lol it’s not as simple as “Kobe ego big he didn’t want to get the ball to Shaq”

2006 - they were down 25 going into that half btw. Using PER in 2023 is crazy

2007 - played well but yeah not competetive

2008 - playoffs with a back injury, dominant WCF run, not great vs the celtics. The Celtics were also this absurd defensive dynasty that focused all their defensive attention on Kobe since the spacing was stupid as hell back then lol
Ur being disingenuous saying they were -36 in the last 3 games when they were -35 in games 7 lol

2009 - great run obv

2010 - not as much defensive attention as 08 but still a ton, but yeah he was missing shots in game 7

Didn’t do great the next two years

Now, the thing is, ur comparing him to Chris Paul lmfao. Dominating and going to the finals and having a poor series does not compare to doing well in the first round and losing.


So breaking it down:

Was Kobe nearly as good as Shaq in the first three peat? Of course not.

Was he however, a key piece to the team that had a bunch of high level key performances in 2000 and 2002 that they probably don’t win without him or wi someone else replacing him? Yes.

In 2000, not as much, but it’s pretty clear that in the Portland series, he was a key 1B type contributor in game 3, and in game 7, he was fantastic considering his defense. Of course, in the finals, he has that game 4 performance, and considering how hot the pacers were the game after from three, and how it used to be 2-3-2, there’s a chance the series is 3-2 in favor of the pacers if he doesn’t have that performance.

Dominant 2001 1B super duo type run

In 2002, has some very key performances vs Sacramento in their wins, although definately lost them a game too.

Outside of 2001 they weren’t this dominant force that didn’t struggle on their way to the title, so the fact that they won these titles, and he was a key part of the key series, yeah that’s a pretty big part of the resume.

What we can say is that he put up superstar impact type performances comparable with shaqs in the same game in game 3 and 7 vs the blazers which were both determined by 5 each, obviously the pacers game 4 performance, game 1, 6, and 7 vs the kings. All of which are single digit victories



This is about halfway into my post before realgm logged me out and got this amount saved so I’ll rehash the rest of it later but it’s just the main points on people not understanding statistics or using them well in context and stuff about his effeciency being really good when looked at under the lens and CPOE just stuff hat has been rehashed a ton of times before

Idk why I took this much effort for an opinion that would be laughed at in mental wards with television lol, realgm really becoming a place where I wonder if people actually watch basketball, I for damn sure know that if you ask someone how to beat a specific pick and roll coverages like 5 users on the forum will be able to make a coherent response

The Lakers weren’t down 25 at half against the Suns in Game 7 in 2006, they were down 15. It was 60-45. MASSIVE difference. There was (an admittedly stupid) media narrative at the time that Kobe’s scoring was costing the Lakers wins because he scored more in the losses than the wins so in order to make a point that the Lakers are worse without him scoring, he literally tanked the second half of a very winnable Game 7. I was a Kobe fan at the time and O hung my head in shame afterwards disgusted with what I’d seen. It’s literally the most embarrassing quitting incident I’ve ever seen. Worse than Pippen refusing to go in for the final shot against the Knicks. 1000x worse than any of LeBron’s so called “quitting incidents” where he’s putting up triple doubles. An all-time embarrassment.

And PER has its issues, but it’s league adjusted which makes it good to compare across eras and the #1 issue it has is to overrate high volume scorers who don’t play defense which is 2006 Kobe to a tee. He’s the exact definition of the kind of player PER would overrate. If you want to use WS/48 instead Kobe had 0.87 which is worse than KG ever did in the playoffs after his age 21 season, worse than CP3 ever did after his age 23 season (when he played 5 games injured), as bad as Stockton ever did until his age 40 season, worse than Dirk did from age 21 to age 39, worse than Curry ever did, and worse than Harden ever did. It was an all-time disaster class.

Myb on the first one, saw it wrong


I refuse to believe I just got hit with “oh well if you don’t like that I have win shares!”

Do you like the on/off of -17.0? The BPM of 2.4? His playoff RAPM which ranked 133rd out of 195 qualifying players? No matter how you measure it, he sucked that playoffs, in large part because he literally quit at the end when the series was still winnable.

[70sFan]

I do have him inside top 15 and I don't think any active player outside of Curry and LeBron have a strong argument over Kobe for career value.

I don’t see how you can say Chris Paul doesn’t have a strong argument. He could pass Kobe for career games played this year. Meanwhile in 26 year RAPM, Chris Paul ranks #3 overall behind only LeBron and KG while Kobe ranks #73 overall behind Ron Harper and Chuck Hayes. For their careers, Paul’s teams performed at a NetRtg of +6.9 with him on the floor compared to +4.2 for Kobe even though Kobe’s teams performed 2.3 points better with the stars on the bench.

Kobe was healthier in the playoffs than Paul, but he also sabotaged a dynasty because he didn’t like being the #2 and literally quit on his team at halftime of a Game 7 in 2006. Personally I’d have Paul far ahead of Kobe. I don’t think it’s even particularly close.

Cool, it's not the first time we disagree on something.

Just keep in mind that even under the most favorable circumstances you can imagine, Chris Paul would give you 5 rings in any possible way.

[MyUniBroDavis]

The Lakers weren’t down 25 at half against the Suns in Game 7 in 2006, they were down 15. It was 60-45. MASSIVE difference. There was (an admittedly stupid) media narrative at the time that Kobe’s scoring was costing the Lakers wins because he scored more in the losses than the wins so in order to make a point that the Lakers are worse without him scoring, he literally tanked the second half of a very winnable Game 7. I was a Kobe fan at the time and O hung my head in shame afterwards disgusted with what I’d seen. It’s literally the most embarrassing quitting incident I’ve ever seen. Worse than Pippen refusing to go in for the final shot against the Knicks. 1000x worse than any of LeBron’s so called “quitting incidents” where he’s putting up triple doubles. An all-time embarrassment.

And PER has its issues, but it’s league adjusted which makes it good to compare across eras and the #1 issue it has is to overrate high volume scorers who don’t play defense which is 2006 Kobe to a tee. He’s the exact definition of the kind of player PER would overrate. If you want to use WS/48 instead Kobe had 0.87 which is worse than KG ever did in the playoffs after his age 21 season, worse than CP3 ever did after his age 23 season (when he played 5 games injured), as bad as Stockton ever did until his age 40 season, worse than Dirk did from age 21 to age 39, worse than Curry ever did, and worse than Harden ever did. It was an all-time disaster class.

Myb on the first one, saw it wrong


I refuse to believe I just got hit with “oh well if you don’t like that I have win shares!”

Do you like the on/off of -17.0? The BPM of 2.4? His playoff RAPM which ranked 133rd out of 195 qualifying players? No matter how you measure it, he sucked that playoffs, in large part because he literally quit at the end when the series was still winnable.

There’s no way I just saw someone use RAPM in a 7 game sample

oh my god please tell me you didn’t use the gitlab rapm lmao

I refuse to believe this convo went from

PER > Winshares > 7 game RAPM

[iggymcfrack]

Myb on the first one, saw it wrong


I refuse to believe I just got hit with “oh well if you don’t like that I have win shares!”

Do you like the on/off of -17.0? The BPM of 2.4? His playoff RAPM which ranked 133rd out of 195 qualifying players? No matter how you measure it, he sucked that playoffs, in large part because he literally quit at the end when the series was still winnable.

There’s no way I just saw someone use RAPM in a 7 game sample

oh my god please tell me you didn’t use the gitlab rapm lmao

I refuse to believe this convo went from

PER > Winshares > 7 game RAPM

I literally listed every stat I can find from the 2006 playoffs and they all said Kobe sucked. If you can find a better one, point it out to me instead of just trying to cut down every single stat I can think of.

[One_and_Done]

If Kobe had played in Utah, and Karl Malone had played in LA, then the people voting Kobe in the top 10 would say Karl Malone was in the top 10, and Kobe wasn't even in the top 20. Statistically there's not much argument for Kobe over Karl tbh, but then that's true for alot of guys; KD, Giannis, Curry, Kawhi, etc. Basically every metric tells you Kobe is worse than them. As least Kawhi doesn't have longevity, so Kobe can get ahead of him with that, but that's no help with those other guys.