Better peak: Kevin Garnett vs Nikola Jokic

[ShotCreator]

Garnett is better. The talent is too high.

Jokic' playmaking(not pure passing, but playmaking angles created), isn't the tier needed to just brute force past Garnett's level overall.

Garnett scales as high as Gobert defensively, and as a high as a Donovan Mitchell offensively. Just pure talent-wise. How he was used(No lob passers played with, no 3pointers taken), is not confusing me as to the actual ceiling of play. And the raw ceiling was enough to be considered better. But when maximized, and next to real talent? There's no team I'd ever feel Jokic could improve more than Garnett.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Garnett is better. The talent is too high.

Jokic' playmaking(not pure passing, but playmaking angles created), isn't the tier needed to just brute force past Garnett's level overall.

Garnett scales as high as Gobert defensively, and as a high as a Donovan Mitchell offensively. Just pure talent-wise. How he was used(No lob passers played with, no 3pointers taken), is not confusing me as to the actual ceiling of play. And the raw ceiling was enough to be considered better. But when maximized, and next to real talent? There's no team I'd ever feel Jokic could improve more than Garnett.

I think this is a fair comparison but what do you mean by this

[JimmyFromNz]

Garnett is better. The talent is too high.

Jokic' playmaking(not pure passing, but playmaking angles created), isn't the tier needed to just brute force past Garnett's level overall.

Garnett scales as high as Gobert defensively, and as a high as a Donovan Mitchell offensively. Just pure talent-wise. How he was used(No lob passers played with, no 3pointers taken), is not confusing me as to the actual ceiling of play. And the raw ceiling was enough to be considered better. But when maximized, and next to real talent? There's no team I'd ever feel Jokic could improve more than Garnett.

Yeah little unsure what you mean. Particularly the tiered approach to skill levels. Where Jokic is pretty comfortably the best big man playmaker of all time already, this seems like a pretty good 'tier' to me, acknowledging that is not just what he is.

He's as good of a rebounder (TRB% is higher), and on a different level as a scorer to KG. The defensive gap is clear, there's no argument there.

So I guess my question would be the invert of yours. What is it about Garnett's defensive tier that just 'brute forces' past Jokic overall peak? Personally I dont think a debate around having the more balanced skillset (which he does) ' to Jokic is that determinative or convincing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the main point is based around Garnett's scalability onto other teams. I wouldn't disagree, but I'm not sure that answers the original question.

[dygaction]

Looked at the poll results and thought this topic was in the GB board. Did not expect a landslide win for Jokic in PC board

[iggymcfrack]

Looked at the poll results and thought this topic was in the GB board. Did not expect a landslide win for Jokic in PC board

I would have had 2004 KG as the 3rd or 4th best peak of all-time going into this season, but I still think 2023 Jokic was clearly better. He was just that unbelievable. I think a lot of the board is with me in loving KG, but just loving Joker even more.

[Djoker]

KG gets underrated just how good he was on D.

Look at these Boston lineups in the playoffs. Every lineup with KG OFF they are deep in the red. With him ON every lineup is a positive, most hugely positive. His only problem was he was getting old and couldn't play like 43 mpg. If he could Boston would have won 2-3 rings.




With all that being said, I'd probably lean towards Jokic.

[Ambrose]

Jokic, without even thinking about it. Come on.

[Ron Swanson]

Polls often exaggerate the gap (the vast majority can view Jokic as "slightly" better and that's no shot at KG), but I have Jokic here without too much thought. My last reservations towards Jokic as a Top 15-20ish peak/prime guy dissipated when he proved he could sharply scale his scoring volume and usage, which not surprisingly coincided with his leap in all of the "impact" metrics (I still have issues with how stellar the defensive metrics paint him, but I don't feel like relitigating all of that here).

I tend to always favor two-way impact stars, but my main issue with KG has always been that the numbers exaggerate his offensive footprint and gloss over the real weaknesses in him as an offensive anchor/fulcrum to build around (lack of rim-pressure, FT rate/foul-drawing, inefficient shot profile, playoff scoring resiliency).

[Cavsfansince84]

I think the argument for KG would have to be as a better floor raiser and ability to play on a dominant team when allowed to focus more on the defensive end. The thing is though we just saw Jokic do one of the greatest floor raising jobs of all time two seasons ago and then followed it up with a near atg off season and playoff run this year. So I probably lean Jokic due to the dominance of that playoff run. KG as good as he was never had a playoff run like that.

[Peregrine01]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

[kendogg]

KG is an overrated scrub. Can't teabag dunk like Shaq. Can't pass like Jokic. Has a slow release on his jumper and a tendency to pull down on the ball after catching, so he's practically worthless offball except as a rebounder. He has literally zero go to moves as a scorer. His move is to take contested jumpshots like Durant, except he can't shoot like Durant. Just a defensive specialist like Draymond Green or Robert Covington. Except Roco ain't a b#^&@ like the other two so I'll take him.

[MyUniBroDavis]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

I mean there’s probably a gap between those two casts lol, but I agree with the bolded a ton but for the most part this probably applies to both ends

Really high bbiq at times is from really well designed offense, but making those reads is something a high bbiq is needed for

Alotnof times a guy gets criticized unfairly when the staff doesn’t put him in a position to succeed

[Peregrine01]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

I mean there’s probably a gap between those two casts lol, but I agree with the bolded a ton but for the most part this probably applies to both ends

Really high bbiq at times is from really well designed offense, but making those reads is something a high bbiq is needed for

Alotnof times a guy gets criticized unfairly when the staff doesn’t put him in a position to succeed

I don’t think this applies to offense as much because we’ve seen great offensive players carry great offenses almost by themselves. Great defense seems to require great coaching to a much larger degree.

[MyUniBroDavis]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

I mean there’s probably a gap between those two casts lol, but I agree with the bolded a ton but for the most part this probably applies to both ends

Really high bbiq at times is from really well designed offense, but making those reads is something a high bbiq is needed for

Alotnof times a guy gets criticized unfairly when the staff doesn’t put him in a position to succeed

I don’t think this applies to offense as much because we’ve seen great offensive players carry great offenses almost by themselves. Great defense seems to require great coaching to a much larger degree.

It’s kind of tough honestly, nowadays there are def times we see dumb coaching limit offense, and great coaching enhance one.

I mean 2014 warriors vs 2015 warriors was mostly a coaching change more than anything else


I agree an offensive player can carry a badly coached poor offense more than a defensive player can the other way around even now though


In general imo coaching is more important now than before, if Giannis had like a great offensive coach they’d be cooking they had to switch out of 5 out because they didn’t know how to run it lol

[homecourtloss]

KG is an overrated scrub. Can't teabag dunk like Shaq. Can't pass like Jokic. Has a slow release on his jumper and a tendency to pull down on the ball after catching, so he's practically worthless offball except as a rebounder. He has literally zero go to moves as a scorer. His move is to take contested jumpshots like Durant, except he can't shoot like Durant. Just a defensive specialist like Draymond Green or Robert Covington. Except Roco ain't a b#^&@ like the other two so I'll take him.

I sincerely hope this is satire but judging from post history you seem serious.

[Red Beast]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

I mean there’s probably a gap between those two casts lol, but I agree with the bolded a ton but for the most part this probably applies to both ends

Really high bbiq at times is from really well designed offense, but making those reads is something a high bbiq is needed for

Alotnof times a guy gets criticized unfairly when the staff doesn’t put him in a position to succeed

Don't think there is any significant gap between the two casts. KG played with some pretty decent and some okay defenders in 12 years with the Wolves and never had a top 5 defense. In 12 years, he only had a top ten defense twice. KG is a great defender, but he was never top ten all time, which is something I see mentioned frequently. You can't have that many mediocre and bad defenses for the first 12 years of your career, when you are in your athletic prime, and blame the quality of all of those teammates. The logic just doesn't fit. Particularly when you can look at other great defensive players and find many instances where they have been on multiple top five defensives with different coaches and pretty average teammates.

KG just never had the same impact as the great rim protectors have. The primary reason for the Celtic's defense was Tom Thibodeau. Thibodeau engineered the revolutionary defense for the Celtics, then had the number one defense for the Bulls, then had another number one defense for the Knicks. All with different players. KG, of course, was very important, but he was one ingredient in the recipe, he wasn't the cook. That was Thibodeau.

KG on defense was similar to what he was on offense, very versatile with lots of energy and intelligence, but not truly dominant in impactful areas. He was not an elite rim protector, and he was not an elite post defender. He lacked strength to guard top centers and wasn't quick enough to shut down elite wings. He was an elite help defender, which is very useful, but not nearly as impactful as an elite rim protector. Another way to put this would be - I would have a team of five KGs on defense rather than five Mutombos. But, if I had to pick one player on defense it would be DIkembe every time.

[homecourtloss]

An interesting view was brought up on the GB board. It's well known that KG didn't lead any stellar defenses when he was on Minny and it's often blamed on his teammates. But the Dwight-led Magic, which also didn't have many notable defensive players other than Dwight, had stellar defenses from 2009 to 2011 before dropping off in 2012 when SVG left.

This leads me to think: do we give too much credit/discredit to an individual player's impact on defense? And do we give too little credit/discredit to the coaching staff's impact on defense?

I mean there’s probably a gap between those two casts lol, but I agree with the bolded a ton but for the most part this probably applies to both ends

Really high bbiq at times is from really well designed offense, but making those reads is something a high bbiq is needed for

Alotnof times a guy gets criticized unfairly when the staff doesn’t put him in a position to succeed

Don't think there is any significant gap between the two casts. KG played with some pretty decent and some okay defenders in 12 years with the Wolves and never had a top 5 defense. In 12 years, he only had a top ten defense twice. KG is a great defender, but he was never top ten all time, which is something I see mentioned frequently. You can't have that many mediocre and bad defenses for the first 12 years of your career, when you are in your athletic prime, and blame the quality of all of those teammates. The logic just doesn't fit. Particularly when you can look at other great defensive players and find many instances where they have been on multiple top five defensives with different coaches and pretty average teammates.

KG just never had the same impact as the great rim protectors have. The primary reason for the Celtic's defense was Tom Thibodeau. Thibodeau engineered the revolutionary defense for the Celtics, then had the number one defense for the Bulls, then had another number one defense for the Knicks. All with different players. KG, of course, was very important, but he was one ingredient in the recipe, he wasn't the cook. That was Thibodeau.

KG on defense was similar to what he was on offense, very versatile with lots of energy and intelligence, but not truly dominant in impactful areas. He was not an elite rim protector, and he was not an elite post defender. He lacked strength to guard top centers and wasn't quick enough to shut down elite wings. He was an elite help defender, which is very useful, but not nearly as impactful as an elite rim protector. Another way to put this would be - I would have a team of five KGs on defense rather than five Mutombos. But, if I had to pick one player on defense it would be DIkembe every time.

You cannot make a justifiable claim that he wasn’t truly dominant in “impactful areas” when we have the impact metrics we do for KG. The lack of team defense success outside of 2004 for Minnesota has been a topic of discussion for a while, but then you see KG’s career RS+PS DRAPM at -5.8 at a 95% confidence level…that mitigates things. Only Gobert, Dikembe, Big Ben, Bradley, and Jason Collins are near this. While he did have his strongest single seasons defensively in Boston, he also had strong seasons in Minnesota.

As for rim defense, he may not be Dikembe or Shawn Bradley, but he’s better than what people remember. We have tracking data available from the 2013-2014 season on. In 2013-2014, old KG, past his prime, was 12th in DFG% at the rim out of 174 players who played at least 40 games and defended 2+ shots at the rim.

Players shot 52.3% at the rim vs. him in 2013-2014.

40.4% vs. Biyombo
44.9% vs. Hibbert
45.8% vs. Splitter
47.3 vs. Mahimi
49.0% vs. Jermaine O’Neal
49.6% vs. Ibaka
50% vs. Lopez
50.5% vs. Asik
51.1% vs. Koufos
52.1% vs. Noah
52.2% vs. Perkins
52.3% vs. KG
52.3% vs. Mozgov

52.5% vs. Duncan
52.4% vs. AD

On another note, looking at this list makes you realize that 2014 Indiana was getting ELITE rim protection for 48 minutes per game between hibbert and Mahimi and along with PG13’s wing defense, you get an ATG -7.4 rDRtg, 99.3 DRtg

[Red Beast]

You cannot make a justifiable claim that he wasn’t truly dominant in “impactful areas” when we have the impact metrics we do for KG. The lack of team defense success outside of 2004 for Minnesota has been a topic of discussion for a while, but then you see KG’s career RS+PS DRAPM at -5.8 at a 95% confidence level…that mitigates things. Only Gobert, Dikembe, Big Ben, Bradley, and Jason Collins are near this. While he did have his strongest single seasons defensively in Boston, he also had strong seasons in Minnesota.

As for rim defense, he may not be Dikembe or Shawn Bradley, but he’s better than what people remember. We have tracking data available from the 2013-2014 season on. In 2013-2014, old KG, past his prime, was 12th in DFG% at the rim out of 174 players who played at least 40 games and defended 2+ shots at the rim.

Players shot 52.3% at the rim vs. him in 2013-2014.

40.4% vs. Biyombo
44.9% vs. Hibbert
45.8% vs. Splitter
47.3 vs. Mahimi
49.0% vs. Jermaine O’Neal
49.6% vs. Ibaka
50% vs. Lopez
50.5% vs. Asik
51.1% vs. Koufos
52.1% vs. Noah
52.2% vs. Perkins
52.3% vs. KG
52.3% vs. Mozgov

52.5% vs. Duncan
52.4% vs. AD

On another note, looking at this list makes you realize that 2014 Indiana was getting ELITE rim protection for 48 minutes per game between hibbert and Mahimi and along with PG13’s wing defense, you get an ATG -7.4 rDRtg, 99.3 DRtg

I'm sorry but I have very little confidence in DRAPM being used as a definitive measure of anything. Even for a career, it must be considered in context and any evaluation of a player must consider all other evidence. It is particularly dangerous to be used as a comparison of players as it is an indicator that speaks to an individual player's situation. It seems to me that DRAPM is used to dismiss all other evidence and held up in isolation. Your rim defense stat supports my argument that he was a good not elite rim protector. Remember in 13/14 he played primarily as a center, and he only played 20 minutes a game. Also, the figure you provide is not a true indication of rim protection as it does not measure shots not taken because a player is in the vicinity.

Is KG a great defensive player? Yes, he is. Is he top ten all time? No, he is not. In comparison, let's look at other defensive big men in their first 12 seasons. This is how many top 5 defenses the following players had (remembering KG had zero):
Hakeem 8
Ewing 7
Robinson 9
Duncan 12
Russell 12
Dikembe 6
Elvin Hayes 7
Wilt 10
Eaton 5 (4 out of the 5 years he played more than 30 minutes/game)
Ben Wallace 5
Rudy Gobert 4 (out of 10)
Draymond Green 6 (out of 10)

Now, many of these players played for multiple coaches and very different teammates. Some for different teams. Yet, they regularly had great defenses. How can they do this, yet KG could not scrape together one top five in 12 years? His defenses were generally ordinary or bad. These other players had some pretty mediocre teammates (just as bad as KG) for some years and still had great defenses. How do you explain that?

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm sorry but I have very little confidence in DRAPM being used as a definitive measure of anything. Even for a career, it must be considered in context and any evaluation of a player must consider all other evidence. It is particularly dangerous to be used as a comparison of players as it is an indicator that speaks to an individual player's situation. It seems to me that DRAPM is used to dismiss all other evidence and held up in isolation. Your rim defense stat supports my argument that he was a good not elite rim protector. Remember in 13/14 he played primarily as a center, and he only played 20 minutes a game. Also, the figure you provide is not a true indication of rim protection as it does not measure shots not taken because a player is in the vicinity.

Is KG a great defensive player? Yes, he is. Is he top ten all time? No, he is not. In comparison, let's look at other defensive big men in their first 12 seasons. This is how many top 5 defenses the following players had (remembering KG had zero):
Hakeem 8
Ewing 7
Robinson 9
Duncan 12
Russell 12
Dikembe 6
Elvin Hayes 7
Wilt 10
Eaton 5 (4 out of the 5 years he played more than 30 minutes/game)
Ben Wallace 5
Rudy Gobert 4 (out of 10)
Draymond Green 6 (out of 10)

Now, many of these players played for multiple coaches and very different teammates. Some for different teams. Yet, they regularly had great defenses. How can they do this, yet KG could not scrape together one top five in 12 years? His defenses were generally ordinary or bad. These other players had some pretty mediocre teammates (just as bad as KG) for some years and still had great defenses. How do you explain that?

I don’t necessarily agree with your conclusions but this bolded is a W take

[LukaTheGOAT]

How DRAPTOR was tested exactly? Where can I find the info?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/introducing-raptor-our-new-metric-for-the-modern-nba/