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tsherkin wrote:This isn't actually true.

KD has been basically the same level of impact since 2017, until this year, leastwise in the RS. He tailed off starting in 2022 during the playoffs. He rocked the hell out of Boston in 2021 and beat the crap out of Milwaukee in a 7-game loss. Dude dropped 35/10.5/5.5 on like 59% TS against them in 2022. And in Game 7, he went out like a boss with 48/9/6. But Harden was an oxygen thief, the bench did nothing and Joe Harris sucked. But the Bucks brutalized them on the offensive glass and Giannis went HAM as well.

So yeah, it's worth remembering that he's actually been pretty awesome until very, very recently, and that even in the RS he was high-impact until this season.

Yeah, KD started to decline as (an almost) 34yo in the 2022 playoffs (in terms of being an alpha dog for a team he plays for) - last year KD was pretty good for a 2nd option, this year as well (3.8 BPM, 65.3 TS%, not bad), and from historical perspective I believe this is still upper tier of an impact for a 35/36yo forward (not to mention his Achilles injury).

Problem of guys like Steph, KD or LeBron nowadays is that they can be vital part of a winning team, but it is expected from them to anchor their teams (offensively) and they're just too old to do so, while they're not in position team level wise to play under 'winning' conditions (and they earn top salary money). Regardless of your opinion about KD, 2016s decision etc. - it's very revisionist to analyze his overall career from perspective of his post-prime years.

It looks like his single post-Warriors opportunity to drastically improve his legacy was 2021 - he was pretty great, but this is how NBA works, you don't win and people just don't remember these epic losses after some time. KD was an inch away from eliminating future NBA champs with a worse team and right now he's a loser without Steph.

Getting close to 30k points and being ~borderline All-NBA player as soon-to-be 36yo is still a positive addition to your longevity and legacy.

Yeah I know I’m the biggest KD hater on here and some will call me crazy, but whatever. KD is a borderline ATG without a doubt, no one can take that away from him. I definitely think he’s in the top 15, top 20 ATG list. Having said all of that(Stephen A Smith’s voice), there shouldn’t have been any narrative about him finishing his career on the same trajectory as LeBron as the media desperately tried to back in 2017-2019 after his run with the GSW.

I understood how the media like to push narratives for clickbait, etc, but any reasonable basketball nerds knew deep down inside KD is one of the most lethal scorers(arguably the best iso scorer ever) with an aesthetically pleasing game to watch, but beyond that and as decent as he is of a passer/playmaker, he’s never had the skills to be a real floor general who can lead the way regardless of how his team’s roster is structured, and that’s what majority of us(LeBron fans) have been trying to tell y’all for years.

He may put up decent and good assists numbers, but they aren’t impactful enough to make a difference comes playoffs time(unless he’s with GSW) because he lacks the basketball IQ to be a floor general in terms of controlling the tempo of the game, reading plays in real time, anticipate, and exploit openings, etc, and that’s where players like prime and current LeBron, Joker, Luka, etc, reign supreme. Have a good night!

Run DLC wrote:Yeah I know I’m the biggest KD hater on here and some will call me crazy, but whatever. KD is a borderline ATG without a doubt, no one can take that away from him. I definitely think he’s in the top 15, top 20 ATG list. Having said all of that(Stephen A Smith’s voice), there shouldn’t have been any narrative about him finishing his career on the same trajectory as LeBron as the media desperately tried to back in 2017-2019 after his run with the GSW.

I understood how the media like to push narratives for clickbait, etc, but any reasonable basketball nerds knew deep down inside KD is one of the most lethal scorers(arguably the best iso scorer ever) with an aesthetically pleasing game to watch, but beyond that and as decent as he is of a passer/playmaker, he’s never had the skills to be a real floor general who can lead the way regardless of how his team’s roster is structured, and that’s what majority of us(LeBron fans) have been trying to tell y’all for years.

First bolded: It’s pretty crazy that LeBron has won out in his twilight years in the debates with KD, Kawhi (remember these after 2019? ), and Curry. James wound up being a top 5 player in the 2024 playoffs and minimum top 8 player overall at 39 even with literally the most minutes ever played.

Second bolded: they have been some really good meta discussions in the top 100 thread and other threads on the comparisons board regarding The ceiling for ultra efficient volume scoring and KD is the perfect hub for this discussion.

Run DLC wrote:Yeah I know I’m the biggest KD hater on here and some will call me crazy, but whatever. KD is a borderline ATG without a doubt, no one can take that away from him. I definitely think he’s in the top 15, top 20 ATG list. Having said all of that(Stephen A Smith’s voice), there shouldn’t have been any narrative about him finishing his career on the same trajectory as LeBron as the media desperately tried to back in 2017-2019 after his run with the GSW.

I understood how the media like to push narratives for clickbait, etc, but any reasonable basketball nerds knew deep down inside KD is one of the most lethal scorers(arguably the best iso scorer ever) with an aesthetically pleasing game to watch, but beyond that and as decent as he is of a passer/playmaker, he’s never had the skills to be a real floor general who can lead the way regardless of how his team’s roster is structured, and that’s what majority of us(LeBron fans) have been trying to tell y’all for years.

He may put up decent and good assists numbers, but they aren’t impactful enough to make a difference comes playoffs time(unless he’s with GSW) because he lacks the basketball IQ to be a floor general in terms of controlling the tempo of the game, reading plays in real time, anticipate, and exploit openings, etc, and that’s where players like prime and current LeBron, Joker, Luka, etc, reign supreme. Have a good night!

I rarely watch the talking head shows. Did they really try to place Durant on Lebron's level?

Based on MVP voting they don't. Durant's last top 5 in MVP voting was 2016.

And I don't think you have to be a basketball nerd or Lebron fan to know Lebron is better than Durant. I lived in San Francisco for all of Durant's years here. I never met anyone who argued Durant was similar.

I'm not pushing back on your critique of Durant's game but rather your critique of how Durant was regarded in comparison to Lebron.

I don't watch the talking head shows so maybe that is what you're referring to. But remember those shows are designed to have people say things for affect that they don't mean. It is know that SAS makes arguments solely to get attention. So critiquing their arguments is similar to critiquing a WWE program. The basketball press that matters has always placed Lebron based on MVP voting over Durant.

Mos_Heat wrote:For a guy who has a reputation of "The most malleable great player of all time" his teams always play super heavy ISO offense. He even disrupted Dub's motion a little

When he played with OKC many, myself included, attacked Brooks for how primitive the OKC offense seemed given their immense talent. In retrospect, that may have been a product of that being what Durant worked. It probably would have led to a title if the conferences were a bit more balanced from 2012-16.

But it wasn't the best way for those clubs to play even if Durant believe iso ball is the way to run a club.

sp6r=underrated wrote:

Run DLC wrote:Yeah I know I’m the biggest KD hater on here and some will call me crazy, but whatever. KD is a borderline ATG without a doubt, no one can take that away from him. I definitely think he’s in the top 15, top 20 ATG list. Having said all of that(Stephen A Smith’s voice), there shouldn’t have been any narrative about him finishing his career on the same trajectory as LeBron as the media desperately tried to back in 2017-2019 after his run with the GSW.

I understood how the media like to push narratives for clickbait, etc, but any reasonable basketball nerds knew deep down inside KD is one of the most lethal scorers(arguably the best iso scorer ever) with an aesthetically pleasing game to watch, but beyond that and as decent as he is of a passer/playmaker, he’s never had the skills to be a real floor general who can lead the way regardless of how his team’s roster is structured, and that’s what majority of us(LeBron fans) have been trying to tell y’all for years.

He may put up decent and good assists numbers, but they aren’t impactful enough to make a difference comes playoffs time(unless he’s with GSW) because he lacks the basketball IQ to be a floor general in terms of controlling the tempo of the game, reading plays in real time, anticipate, and exploit openings, etc, and that’s where players like prime and current LeBron, Joker, Luka, etc, reign supreme. Have a good night!

I rarely watch the talking head shows. Did they really try to place Durant on Lebron's level?

Based on MVP voting they don't. Durant's last top 5 in MVP voting was 2016.

And I don't think you have to be a basketball nerd or Lebron fan to know Lebron is better than Durant. I lived in San Francisco for all of Durant's years here. I never met anyone who argued Durant was similar.

I'm not pushing back on your critique of Durant's game but rather your critique of how Durant was regarded in comparison to Lebron.

I don't watch the talking head shows so maybe that is what you're referring to. But remember those shows are designed to have people say things for affect that they don't mean. It is know that SAS makes arguments solely to get attention. So critiquing their arguments is similar to critiquing a WWE program. The basketball press that matters has always placed Lebron based on MVP voting over Durant.

I think when Durant was 21 it wasn't crazy to think he would finish his career top 5 all time, but that line of thinking was gone by 2015 I think. You can honestly argue that if you simulate Durant's career 1 million times from age 21 onwards then this was a 25th percentile outcome for him. Potentially never winning one ring where you were the best player on the team is kind of disappointing for someone who finish second in MVP voting at age 21 (even if Durant is still top 25 all time)

Special_Puppy wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:

Run DLC wrote:Yeah I know I’m the biggest KD hater on here and some will call me crazy, but whatever. KD is a borderline ATG without a doubt, no one can take that away from him. I definitely think he’s in the top 15, top 20 ATG list. Having said all of that(Stephen A Smith’s voice), there shouldn’t have been any narrative about him finishing his career on the same trajectory as LeBron as the media desperately tried to back in 2017-2019 after his run with the GSW.

I understood how the media like to push narratives for clickbait, etc, but any reasonable basketball nerds knew deep down inside KD is one of the most lethal scorers(arguably the best iso scorer ever) with an aesthetically pleasing game to watch, but beyond that and as decent as he is of a passer/playmaker, he’s never had the skills to be a real floor general who can lead the way regardless of how his team’s roster is structured, and that’s what majority of us(LeBron fans) have been trying to tell y’all for years.

He may put up decent and good assists numbers, but they aren’t impactful enough to make a difference comes playoffs time(unless he’s with GSW) because he lacks the basketball IQ to be a floor general in terms of controlling the tempo of the game, reading plays in real time, anticipate, and exploit openings, etc, and that’s where players like prime and current LeBron, Joker, Luka, etc, reign supreme. Have a good night!

I rarely watch the talking head shows. Did they really try to place Durant on Lebron's level?

Based on MVP voting they don't. Durant's last top 5 in MVP voting was 2016.

And I don't think you have to be a basketball nerd or Lebron fan to know Lebron is better than Durant. I lived in San Francisco for all of Durant's years here. I never met anyone who argued Durant was similar.

I'm not pushing back on your critique of Durant's game but rather your critique of how Durant was regarded in comparison to Lebron.

I don't watch the talking head shows so maybe that is what you're referring to. But remember those shows are designed to have people say things for affect that they don't mean. It is know that SAS makes arguments solely to get attention. So critiquing their arguments is similar to critiquing a WWE program. The basketball press that matters has always placed Lebron based on MVP voting over Durant.

I think when Durant was 21 it wasn't crazy to think he would finish his career top 5 all time, but that line of thinking was gone by 2015 I think. You can honestly argue that if you simulate Durant's career 1 million times from age 21 onwards then this was a 25th percentile outcome for him. Potentially never winning one ring where you were the best player on the team is kind of disappointing for someone who finish second in MVP voting at age 21 (even if Durant is still top 25 all time)

Even with projection top-5 is a huge stretch if you actually watched him play. He's never had the skillset to be top-10 regardless of how aesthetically pleasing he was. Honestly, given his relatively good health I think this is actually a good career outcome for him production-wise.

capfan33 wrote:Even with projection top-5 is a huge stretch if you actually watched him play. He's never had the skillset to be top-10 regardless of how aesthetically pleasing he was. Honestly, given his relatively good health I think this is actually a good career outcome for him production-wise.

This career outcome is a very good outcome even if he had the skill-set to be a GOAT. Wemby is the first player since Lebron that I'm aware of to enter the NBA with "he could be the best player of all time" hype. I'm sure Pop would be estatic if he had a career as good as Durant.

Am I the only one who remembered how fans on here were going around stating that KD could’ve led the same 2018 Cavs to the NBA finals like LeBron did? That was when I knew deep down a lot of those guys on here only watch basketball and get caught up only in the scoring aspect of it. KD never had the ability to carry a team like LeBron. KD can be the ultimate plug on any elite offensive system, but put him on a mediocre team with no real floor general to keep the offense flowing, then watch how one dimensional his game really is. To me, KD is just a better efficient version of Kobe, Melo, T-Mac.

Run DLC wrote:Am I the only one who remembered how fans on here were going around stating that KD could’ve led the same 2018 Cavs to the NBA finals like LeBron did? That was where I knew deep down a lot of those guys on here only watch basketball and get caught up only in the scoring aspect of it. KD never had the ability to carry a team like LeBron. KD can be the ultimate plug on any elite offensive system, but put him on a mediocre team with no real floor general to keep the offense flowing, then watch how one dimensional his game really is. To me, KD is just a better efficient version of Kobe, Melo, T-Mac.

I don’t think Durant could have led the same roster because they are such different players, but he certainly could have with an equivalently talented roster that is built around his strengths and weaknesses

I think it would be more fair to call him a suped up Dirk than a suped up Melo

KembaWalker wrote:

Run DLC wrote:Am I the only one who remembered how fans on here were going around stating that KD could’ve led the same 2018 Cavs to the NBA finals like LeBron did? That was where I knew deep down a lot of those guys on here only watch basketball and get caught up only in the scoring aspect of it. KD never had the ability to carry a team like LeBron. KD can be the ultimate plug on any elite offensive system, but put him on a mediocre team with no real floor general to keep the offense flowing, then watch how one dimensional his game really is. To me, KD is just a better efficient version of Kobe, Melo, T-Mac.

I don’t think Durant could have led the same roster because they are such different players, but he certainly could have with an equivalently talented roster that is built around his strengths and weaknesses

I think it would be more fair to call him a suped up Dirk than a suped up Melo

Yeah, I never liked the KD and Melo comparison, he’s way better than Melo ever was. KD is definitely top 3 for best small forwards of all time, I have LeBron at #1, Bird at #2, and KD at #3.

KembaWalker wrote:

Run DLC wrote:Am I the only one who remembered how fans on here were going around stating that KD could’ve led the same 2018 Cavs to the NBA finals like LeBron did? That was where I knew deep down a lot of those guys on here only watch basketball and get caught up only in the scoring aspect of it. KD never had the ability to carry a team like LeBron. KD can be the ultimate plug on any elite offensive system, but put him on a mediocre team with no real floor general to keep the offense flowing, then watch how one dimensional his game really is. To me, KD is just a better efficient version of Kobe, Melo, T-Mac.

I don’t think Durant could have led the same roster because they are such different players, but he certainly could have with an equivalently talented roster that is built around his strengths and weaknesses

I think it would be more fair to call him a suped up Dirk than a suped up Melo

His strength being scoring (against the right matchups), 1on1 defense, and (relative) weaknesses being basically everything else. Not sure about that one. And Dirk was probably more impactful era-relative albeit if they both started today KD is probably better, but even that I'm not sure of.

I never thought he was as good as Dirk, his basketball IQ in the halfcourt is flawed, and his impact on team chemistry is way worse. I do like that the younger version was transition thread beside Russ.

I think Durant in the 20s all time is right especially with a few guys moving up like Jokic and Giannis. He is flawed but he has more longevity than a player like Wade, translated to playoffs better than a player like Harden.

Dr Positivity wrote:I never thought he was as good as Dirk, his basketball IQ in the halfcourt is flawed, and his impact on team chemistry is way worse. I do like that the younger version was transition thread beside Russ.

I think Durant in the 20s all time is right especially with a few guys moving up like Jokic and Giannis. He is flawed but he has more longevity than a player like Wade, translated to playoffs better than a player like Harden.

The last year and a half is the first time I’ve watched every game KD play and I’m convinced he’s got the lowest bbiq of any top-20 player all time. Not saying he’s dumb because you can’t be this consistently great for so long and be an idiot but something is just off with his understanding of the game. Maybe it’s the situation around him lately but it seems like he doesn’t know what his teammates are supposed to be doing and some of the turnovers are mind-numbingly bad. You gotta think given his numbers he’d be firmly top-10 all time with just a 15% higher bb iq.