Pelly24 wrote:OhayoKD wrote:tsherkin wrote:
Pelly, I believe what Ohayo is trying to say here is that Wade isn't alone in benefiting from how the era has changed things. What needs to happen is superior separation due to era, that sound about right, Ohayo?.
Yep.
For comparison, LeBron was at 72% shooting at the rim on about the same amount of attempts back in 2008-2009. And thats absolute apex athletic ability Lebron.LeBron is somehow shooting just as well at the rim now despite being a decade older. That's not a coincidence. Prime Wade easily clears 72-74% at the rim today with all this spacing now, based on that (educated guess).
The "somehow" is that Lebron is big and tall. Wade is(in a nba sense) not. That actual guards like sga or morant
do not offer a bigger rim-threat than a greatly diminished Lebron offers(never mind Giannis) is a concern if you are actually worried about impact and not slashlines.
m not taking anyone but Jokic and maybe Luka over him in today's game. I've seen Giannis and Embiid fizzle out too much.
An interesting claim given that Giannis has seen significantly more team-success in the regular season and the playoffs than Jokic and is a direct peer for him in any sort of impact-on-winning comparison. Wade is a guard and obviously will not be touching Giannis's influence on that end.
Jokic is much better than Giannis. Just peep the 2023 postseason for evidence. Every time Jokic lost in the playoffs he was supposed to lose, because he had the worse team due to injuries. He's beaten Kawhi and PG,beat the blazers basically by himself
"Giannis is much better than Jokic, peep the 2022 and 2021 postseason for evidence"
Jokic's Nuggets have done alot worse than losing to the arguable 2nd best team/eventual finalist. I also don't know what your basis for "jokic would never lose to the heat with x" is when Jokic's Nuggets put up less of a fight vs the Lakers than a hobbled Miami team despite Jokic's teammate assisting/scoring more combined points while facing
more defensive attention from ad/lebron/dwight.
, etc. In comparison, Giannis was upset in 2020 and 2023. He only won a championship when all the other elite players were injured. Jokic is in the middle of having the type of BPM/Ws/48, PER, EPM, etc. whatever advanced stats you choose, that only MJ and LeBron rivaled at their peak. He averaged a 26 point triple double on 70 (!!!) TS%.
If by advanced stat you mean made-up slashline derivatives...you're still wrong because any stat that prioritized defensive actions or ball-handling would see Jokic look worse than the likes of Giannis and Luka respectively. Lebron is advantaged with either. It's not "whatever" stats you choose, it's "whatever stats" don't count or weigh Jokic's weaknesses enough for him to not look so good.
If you mean actual objective(or objective-adjacent) data then no. Jokic consistently loses to Embid in RAPM(never mind Lebron) and his best real-world signals don't touch James. His playoff on/off is also weirdly horrible. By any serious use of statistics Giannis is a peer, whether you go by regular season or playoffs:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2299872&p=110066251&hilit=giannis#p110066251(you can control f for "challenger")
A TLDR:
-> similarish WOWY for rs and playoffs, if you went for a single-year jokic's 2023 has the most favorable upside I think assuming no teammate improvement in the postseason, but Giannis has an rs advantage with 19/20
-> similarish RAPM though I guess i'd give jokic an edge without longetivity considerations
-> Jokic a decent rs on/off advantage, giannis a big playoff on/off advantage
-> giannis's teams improve more in a raw-rating sense but wif you used a more binary approach like "srs-titles" or whatever giannis might come at a disadvantage(
-> giannis sports a longetivity advantage that is potentially suppressing averages to a degree
-> split apm-box hybrids though as mentioned, i think that's of dubious utility comparing defensive juggernaut with an offensive one
He has been less successful and he doesn't gain notable seperation individually unless you start cherrypicking what basketball actions you want to count.
I don't really know what the last line is supposed to prove. No one is arguing Jokic is a worse offensive player than Giannis.
And no, it's not a concern, because DWade is much bigger and stronger than both SGA and JA Morant while also being faster. He
He is closer to both of them than he is to Lebron in terms of physique. So yes, Lebron being able to be simialrly effective as a rim-scorer(more effective in 2023) calls into question in your theory that spacing would make his impact would go up as opposed to down.