How many more years for Jokic to be in top 10 contention for you?

[Colbinii]

Most rate that way and on the surface it doesn't look as good his team not winning and winning but it's a team sport. If he had the greatest boxscore and metrics ever in that series and they still lose there would be no logical argument against him.

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

Migya said he values box score stuffing and impact data. LeBron and KG are two of the best ever at it. I assume Migya values both highly since they check the boxes he values.

[migya]

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

Migya said he values box score stuffing and impact data. LeBron and KG are two of the best ever at it. I assume Migya values both highly since they check the boxes he values.

This is derailing really. Keep to topic.

I told you months ago to stop being a smart alec with cowardly poking like this.

Moderators, this poster again is instigating and trying to steer conversation wrongly.

[Special_Puppy]

Most rate that way and on the surface it doesn't look as good his team not winning and winning but it's a team sport. If he had the greatest boxscore and metrics ever in that series and they still lose there would be no logical argument against him.

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

[migya]

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

As far as metrics; Slightly better OR, DR, WS, WS/48 in both RS and PS. Bpm in PS and even in RS. TS% is also Duncan both RS and PS. Garnett also had better teams in Boston than Duncan had in SA, though some may make argument for value of likes of Ginobili being more than say Pierce and Allen, most likely wouldn't though. Duncan won championships in 05,07 and 14 with such teams to KG only 08.

I think KG stinking it in 2010 finals is big in his career. Some can note that he wasn't good many other times other years as well but he literally cost Boston the championship by not showing up much in 2010 and being outplayed significantly by Gasol in a very close series.

Garnett didn't step up scoring wise in the playoffs like Duncan. He didn't get big buckets much, Duncan did, and that characteristic is prevalent among alltime greats and those in the top ten. Garnett was great but those aspects make Duncan better.

[web123888]

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

5 rings and 3 finals MVPs, anchor of a dynasty - all that stuff matters a lot more than obscure advanced stats.

[Special_Puppy]

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

5 rings and 3 finals MVPs, anchor of a dynasty - all that stuff matters a lot more than obscure advanced stats.

What % of Duncan’s greater team success was due to his supporting casts being better than Garnett’s vs Duncan being a better and more valuable player?

[iggymcfrack]

He's definitely in top 10 contention right now. My 9-11 guys are David Robinson, Bill Russell, and Jokic, and they're hard to rank. I feel like Robinson should be ahead of Russell and that Russell should be ahead of Jokic, but I also kinda feel like Jokic should be ahead of Robinson.

Like from a skills perspective, it feels like Robinson provides 99% of what Russell provides on defense, but his offense is massively better so he should be ahead of him. Meanwhile, Jokic's skills don't map as closely to Russell's so for him to pass the biggest winner of all-time, it feels like he at least needs 2 rings. But Jokic also has 3 years as the clear best player in the league and Robinson doesn't really have an argument in any given year.

I feel like the rankings that fit best right now are 9. Robinson 10. Russell 11. Jokic (what I had at the start of the year) and 9. Russell 10. Jokic 11. Robinson. I think I'm gonna stick with the former for now, but the 9-11 spots are the ones I'm most conflicted about in my top 30.

[OhayoKD]

Yup, it's why players like KG and LeBron are GOAT candidates.

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

Significant advantage in possessions played in the rs and the playoffs, accrued significantly more playoff value as a result of playing more. and probably has a slight advantage in playoff impact in general (and his team's have also generally been less conducive for impact numbers(best years come with his best teammate playing the same position as him)).

[Special_Puppy]

LeBron is a pretty weak GOAT candidate…as in there’s generally a better argument for him not being a top 3 player all time than for him being the greatest ever.

Garnett is not even near the greatest player to ever play his position, not even close to being a top 10 player of all time… never mind a serious GOAT candidate with zero Finals MVPs.

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

Significant advantage in possessions played in the rs and the playoffs, accrued significantly more playoff value as a result of playing more. and probably has a slight advantage in playoff impact in general (and his team's have also generally been less conducive for impact numbers(best years come with his best teammate playing the same position as him)).

I'm seeing 107,932 career possessions for Duncan and 106,536 career possessions for Garnett.

[OhayoKD]

What's the argument that Tim Duncan had a significantly more valuable career than Kevin Garnett?

Significant advantage in possessions played in the rs and the playoffs, accrued significantly more playoff value as a result of playing more. and probably has a slight advantage in playoff impact in general (and his team's have also generally been less conducive for impact numbers(best years come with his best teammate playing the same position as him)).

I'm seeing 107,932 career possessions for Duncan and 106,536 career possessions for Garnett.

its 241 k for Duncan vs 206 k for KG in the rs and 34 k in the playoffs for duncan vs 19 k for KG

[Special_Puppy]

Significant advantage in possessions played in the rs and the playoffs, accrued significantly more playoff value as a result of playing more. and probably has a slight advantage in playoff impact in general (and his team's have also generally been less conducive for impact numbers(best years come with his best teammate playing the same position as him)).

I'm seeing 107,932 career possessions for Duncan and 106,536 career possessions for Garnett.

its 241 k for Duncan vs 206 k for KG in the rs and 34 k in the playoffs for duncan vs 19 k for KG

I don't get how we are getting such different numbers. Duncan played 56738 minutes where as KG played 55701 minutes total so you'd think the amount of possessions would be pretty close like I have it. Spurs and Timberwovles had a similar pace.

[AEnigma]

In general I would go more by minutes anyway unless we want to argue players on faster-paced teams are by rule more valuable.

[ty 4191]

I think 3 more seasons of this level and you can definitely argue him against the likes of Bird and Curry.

Except he's already more than on par with either Bird or Curry.

How many players, period, have had a 4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated 5/24/24:

Consider that in the past 341 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.7 Relative True Shooting% (rTS%) (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY SINGLE 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.6 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 4 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.7 PER across the last 341 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and LeBron James.

2. His BPM the last 4 full seasons is 12.3, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .656 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .365 from three point range on very high volume for a center (3.2/game).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

[Dutchball97]

I think 3 more seasons of this level and you can definitely argue him against the likes of Bird and Curry.

Except he's already more than on par with either Bird or Curry.

How many players, period, have had a 4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated 5/24/24:

Consider that in the past 341 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.7 Relative True Shooting% (rTS%) (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY SINGLE 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.6 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 4 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.7 PER across the last 341 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and LeBron James.

2. His BPM the last 4 full seasons is 12.3, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .656 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .365 from three point range on very high volume for a center (3.2/game).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

Bird: 897 regular season games, 34443 regular season minutes and 164 play-off games, 6886 play-off minutes in 13 seasons

Curry: 956 regular season games, 32723 regular season minutes and 147 play-off games, 5492 play-off minutes in 15 seasons

Jokic: 675 regular season games, 21078 regular season minutes and 80 play-off games, 3038 play-off minutes in 9 seasons


Now I'm not someone who thinks playing more automatically means you had a more valuable career but when Jokic still has such a significant gap in games/minutes played to the 2 guys with the weakest longevity among top 10 contenders I'm going to wait a couple more seasons tbh.

[Special_Puppy]

I think 3 more seasons of this level and you can definitely argue him against the likes of Bird and Curry.

Except he's already more than on par with either Bird or Curry.

How many players, period, have had a 4 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated 5/24/24:

Consider that in the past 341 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.6/12.3/8.6 on +8.7 Relative True Shooting% (rTS%) (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.6/12.3/8.6 in ANY SINGLE 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.6 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 4 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.7 PER across the last 341 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and LeBron James.

2. His BPM the last 4 full seasons is 12.3, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 5 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .656 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .365 from three point range on very high volume for a center (3.2/game).

Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

Bird: 897 regular season games, 34443 regular season minutes and 164 play-off games, 6886 play-off minutes in 13 seasons

Curry: 956 regular season games, 32723 regular season minutes and 147 play-off games, 5492 play-off minutes in 15 seasons

Jokic: 675 regular season games, 21078 regular season minutes and 80 play-off games, 3038 play-off minutes in 9 seasons


Now I'm not someone who thinks playing more automatically means you had a more valuable career but when Jokic still has such a significant gap in games/minutes played to the 2 guys with the weakest longevity among top 10 contenders I'm going to wait a couple more seasons tbh.

Yeah I want to see something like 900 total regular-season games played, 30k regular-season minutes, 200 playoff games, and 6000 total playoff minutes

[rk2023]

Negative five years, as I believe 2019 was when Jokic became a top 10 player in the NBA. Of course it’s only been uphill since then.