Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History

[AEnigma]

Nah then you need to go into context for all of them. Set a cut-off and commit to it. It is not like it will meaningfully change the results, but the same approach should be used for both. If you are going to use the Bobcats (weird hill to die on but whatever), then you need to also include the 1991 Lakers. And either way the 1991 Pistons should have been included too.

[Lebronnygoat]

Also, is there any explanation for why Jordan’s series against the 1991 Pistons isn’t counted here? The 1991 Pistons had a -3.3 rDRTG, so they clearly qualify. Jordan had a +13.1 rTS% against them, and the series is curiously not included.

Bill Laimbeer could barely play, averaging 20 mpg vs way over 30 in the playoffs (32 in the rs) and Isiah Thomas was literally the epitome of his counterpart, 5’9 Isiah Thomas in Cleveland. Completely lost his edge due to a sprained ankle, and fractured wrist. Rodman barely played in the last two games where MJ averaged 69%TS on 32 ppg, and in game 1 where Rodman played 37 minutes MJ shot 53%TS on 22 points. Now he did have a great game 2, but this is all to say this series and the LA series require major context. You can’t find those flaws in the LeBron series I point out.

[lessthanjake]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, and multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah this sort of cherrypicking is just not gonna cut it here.

[lessthanjake]

Also, is there any explanation for why Jordan’s series against the 1991 Pistons isn’t counted here? The 1991 Pistons had a -3.3 rDRTG, so they clearly qualify. Jordan had a +13.1 rTS% against them, and the series is curiously not included.

Bill Laimbeer could barely play, averaging 20 mpg vs way over 30 in the playoffs (32 in the rs) and Isiah Thomas was literally the epitome of his counterpart, 5’9 Isiah Thomas in Cleveland. Completely lost his edge due to a sprained ankle, and fractured wrist. Rodman barely played in the last two games where MJ averaged 69%TS on 32 ppg, and in game 1 where Rodman played 37 minutes MJ shot 53%TS on 22 points. Now he did have a great game 2, but this is all to say this series and the LA series require major context. You can’t find those flaws in the LeBron series I point out.

You can’t set forth an objective criteria for inclusion and then decide to come up with subjective reasons not to include data that meets that objective criteria (or, in the case of the 2014 Bobcats, to include data that doesn’t meet that objective criteria), when abiding by the objective criteria would help undermine your conclusion.

[AEnigma]

Sounds like this post should have stuck to the initially planned -4 cutoff.

[Lebronnygoat]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, while multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

Yes, 2010 LeBron had an injured elbow. Since the end of the regular season he had to rest it. He came back into Chicago, and played Goat lvl, until game 5, where the elbow is visually affecting him, prompting him to literally shoot left handed free throws in the clutch. This game he goes 5-17 iirc. Not the same LeBron. Games 1 and 3 are explained by the long break he gets from Chicago game 5 to Boston game 1 to rest that elbow. And game 2 to game 3 is 4 days of rest (or may 3rd to 7th). Very simple when you add context, it’s not data manipulation at all. For example (this one’s more extreme) but if 3 of your teams most impactful defenders go out and you’re ranked, -3.5 rDRTG in the RS, there’s no reason to use the performance vs said team.

[lessthanjake]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, while multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

Yes, 2010 LeBron had an injured elbow. Since the end of the regular season he had to rest it. He came back into Chicago, and played Goat lvl, until game 5, where the elbow is visually affecting him, prompting him to literally shoot left handed free throws in the clutch. This game he goes 5-17 iirc. Not the same LeBron. Games 1 and 3 are explained by the long break he gets from Chicago game 5 to Boston game 1 to rest that elbow. And game 2 to game 3 is 4 days of rest (or may 3rd to 7th). Very simple when you add context, it’s not data manipulation at all. For example (this one’s more extreme) but if 3 of your teams most impactful defenders go out and you’re ranked, -3.5 rDRTG in the RS, there’s no reason to use the performance vs said team.

Again, you stated an objective criteria that you claimed to have abided by. But you have clearly come up with subjective reasons to subtly eliminate data points you don’t like (as well as reasons to include non-qualifying data points that you like). Obviously that is data manipulation.

[Colbinii]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, while multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

Yes, 2010 LeBron had an injured elbow. Since the end of the regular season he had to rest it. He came back into Chicago, and played Goat lvl, until game 5, where the elbow is visually affecting him, prompting him to literally shoot left handed free throws in the clutch. This game he goes 5-17 iirc. Not the same LeBron. Games 1 and 3 are explained by the long break he gets from Chicago game 5 to Boston game 1 to rest that elbow. And game 2 to game 3 is 4 days of rest (or may 3rd to 7th). Very simple when you add context, it’s not data manipulation at all. For example (this one’s more extreme) but if 3 of your teams most impactful defenders go out and you’re ranked, -3.5 rDRTG in the RS, there’s no reason to use the performance vs said team.

You can't comb through a series for LeBron and not do the same for Jordan.

LeBron was clearly injured, but it doesn't mean we can just ignore it. That isn't how data works.

[OhayoKD]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, while multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

Yes, 2010 LeBron had an injured elbow. Since the end of the regular season he had to rest it. He came back into Chicago, and played Goat lvl, until game 5, where the elbow is visually affecting him, prompting him to literally shoot left handed free throws in the clutch. This game he goes 5-17 iirc. Not the same LeBron. Games 1 and 3 are explained by the long break he gets from Chicago game 5 to Boston game 1 to rest that elbow. And game 2 to game 3 is 4 days of rest (or may 3rd to 7th). Very simple when you add context, it’s not data manipulation at all. For example (this one’s more extreme) but if 3 of your teams most impactful defenders go out and you’re ranked, -3.5 rDRTG in the RS, there’s no reason to use the performance vs said team.

You can't comb through a series for LeBron and not do the same for Jordan.

LeBron was clearly injured, but it doesn't mean we can just ignore it. That isn't how data works.

Yep.

Just post the data. Cherrypicking what counts or doesn't count is, ironically, one of the major staples in pro-MJ and anti-Lebron arguments.

[lessthanjake]

Another question—this time a genuine question rather than pointing out a flaw:

How are you converting the points per game to inflation-adjusted-per-75-possessions? Like, what are the data points that you use to determine the amount of inflation, and how are you figuring out how many possessions they played in a series?

[Lebronnygoat]

Oh, and is there any reason that LeBron’s series against the Celtics in 2010 isn’t included? The 2010 Celtics had a -3.8 rDRTG that year.

There’s just a lot of mistakes here, with series against less-than-3.0-rDRTG teams being erroneously included, while multiple series against more-than-3.0-rDRTG teams not being included. And in every single instance, the mistakes helped LeBron’s numbers or hurt Jordan’s numbers.

Yes, 2010 LeBron had an injured elbow. Since the end of the regular season he had to rest it. He came back into Chicago, and played Goat lvl, until game 5, where the elbow is visually affecting him, prompting him to literally shoot left handed free throws in the clutch. This game he goes 5-17 iirc. Not the same LeBron. Games 1 and 3 are explained by the long break he gets from Chicago game 5 to Boston game 1 to rest that elbow. And game 2 to game 3 is 4 days of rest (or may 3rd to 7th). Very simple when you add context, it’s not data manipulation at all. For example (this one’s more extreme) but if 3 of your teams most impactful defenders go out and you’re ranked, -3.5 rDRTG in the RS, there’s no reason to use the performance vs said team.

Again, you stated an objective criteria that you claimed to have abided by. But you have clearly come up with subjective reasons to subtly eliminate data points you don’t like (as well as reasons to include non-qualifying data points that you like). Obviously that is data manipulation.

So I guess we’re including Kevin love in the 2016 finals then if we made a post about him? Is that right? That’s just lazy and awful thinking.

[AEnigma]

Possession differences should be relatively marginal looking at 1988-98 versus 2009-18. BBR estimate for Jordan is 76.5 possessions per game, while its estimate for Lebron is 77 possessions per game, and estimated league average pace for the 2009-18 NBA was actually lower (93.71) than the 1988-98 NBA (95.27).

[lessthanjake]

Possession differences should be relatively marginal looking at 1988-98 versus 2009-18. BBR estimate for Jordan is 76.5 possessions per game, while estimates for Lebron are 77 possessions per game, and estimated league average pace for the 2009-18 NBA was actually lower (93.71) than the 1988-98 NBA (95.27).

Yeah, it generally seems fine to me to hand-wave away pace in this particular comparison, but the OP said the numbers were in inflation-adjusted-per-75 terms, so I’m curious how that was done, because I can’t really figure out a way of doing it that I think is actually totally right. Like, if we’re trying to get it, do we estimate their possessions on the court by multiplying the BBREF pace of the series by the percent of the minutes in the series that the player played? That assumes pace on and off the floor is the same, so it’s not perfect. And for the inflation-adjusted thing, are we just comparing the points-per-100-possessions in the RS in that year to the points-per-100-possessions in the 2023 RS? Or are we doing that with the playoff numbers for those years? I have a feeling none of this really matters much for the overall picture, but I’m still curious what the OP is doing to get the numbers.

[ChipotleWest]

The lesser attempts for Lebron vs. Jordan is easily offset by Lebron taking 5000 more 3 pointers than Jordan in his career. You're getting an extra point for each vs. 2. He made 1700 more. There's really no reason he shouldn't be in the mix on ppg if he's the GOAT scorer. Also to me that is a slight knock on him, why is the "GOAT" scorer not taking more field goal attempts? Wouldn't the team want that?

Because he knows that it's better to pass more often than not. Even Jordan had to learn that lesson. There's a limit to what hyper-volume scoring can accomplish.

But fair enough, resilient, Jordan had Jordan Rules put against him the Pistons were being more physical with him than any team had ever been to any player and they did beat his team two years in a row. He still was good but he had no teammate averaging 15 ppg that season, however he came back and beat them 4-0. That's resilient.

That's irrelevant narrative that escapes the usage of the word "resilient" in this thread... and in playoff matchups with Detroit from 88-90, Jordan averaged 27.4 ppg on 54.9% TS, 29.7 ppg on 56.1% TS and 32.1 ppg on 56.6%.

In those respective regular seasons, he averaged 35.0 ppg on 60.3% TS, 32.5 ppg on 61.4% TS and 33.6 ppg on 60.6% TS.

He was considerably diminished against them. Not the pro-resilience argument you seem to think it is...

Because he was getting beat up and the Pistons admitted it. Lebron never went through ANY sort of thing in his entire career. No one else did. I said the resilient part was coming back in 91 and sweeping them.

Definition of resilient: able to withstand or recover quickly from difficult conditions.

Resilient does not mean just playing for longer than everyone and being a good scorer like some of you think. It was a poor use of the word for OP to use it in this thread honestly. Lebron is not the best at recovering from difficult conditions.

[tsherkin]

Because he was getting beat up and the Pistons admitted it. Lebron never went through ANY sort of thing in his entire career.

Patently false, and also significantly overplayed.

Definition of resilient: able to withstand or recover quickly from difficult conditions.

That is one definition of resilience, but it is also very specifically not the one which was employed in the OP, so now you are just being diffident for the sake of trying to undermine positivity towards Lebron. You have a good one.

[ChipotleWest]

Because he was getting beat up and the Pistons admitted it. Lebron never went through ANY sort of thing in his entire career.

Patently false, and also significantly overplayed.

It's right here. Lebron would have given up and passed every time. He had to do that in a Finals game against the Mavs when he scored 8 points when Marion and company shut him down, something MJ never did.

Watch on YouTube

Definition of resilient: able to withstand or recover quickly from difficult conditions

That is one definition of resilience, but it is also very specifically not the one which was employed in the OP, so now you are just being diffident for the sake of trying to undermine positivity towards Lebron. You have a good one.

Please post the alternative definition, you can't because it doesn't exist.

You're blaming me for OP using the wrong word. It's a joke to think Lebron is the most resilient scorer. He's not the best either. You guys are changing definitions for him now.

[Lebronnygoat]

Possession differences should be relatively marginal looking at 1988-98 versus 2009-18. BBR estimate for Jordan is 76.5 possessions per game, while estimates for Lebron are 77 possessions per game, and estimated league average pace for the 2009-18 NBA was actually lower (93.71) than the 1988-98 NBA (95.27).

Yeah, it generally seems fine to me to hand-wave away pace in this particular comparison, but the OP said the numbers were in inflation-adjusted-per-75 terms, so I’m curious how that was done, because I can’t really figure out a way of doing it that I think is actually totally right. Like, if we’re trying to get it, do we estimate their possessions on the court by multiplying the BBREF pace of the series by the percent of the minutes in the series that the player played? That assumes pace on and off the floor is the same, so it’s not perfect. And for the inflation-adjusted thing, are we just comparing the points-per-100-possessions in the RS in that year to the points-per-100-possessions in the 2023 RS? Or are we doing that with the playoff numbers for those years? I have a feeling none of this really matters much for the overall picture, but I’m still curious what the OP is doing to get the numbers.

I did a majority of LeBron’s stats doing the BBALL Ref method you described, and it was always ~10 (close to 10) less than what PBP posted. So it was accurate in that regard, and when I did the Jordan ones using BBALL Ref I added 10 to the possessions. This is the best look you’re going to get at of these guys scoring, and, it’s definitely accurate.

[Lebronnygoat]

Possession differences should be relatively marginal looking at 1988-98 versus 2009-18. BBR estimate for Jordan is 76.5 possessions per game, while estimates for Lebron are 77 possessions per game, and estimated league average pace for the 2009-18 NBA was actually lower (93.71) than the 1988-98 NBA (95.27).

Yeah, it generally seems fine to me to hand-wave away pace in this particular comparison, but the OP said the numbers were in inflation-adjusted-per-75 terms, so I’m curious how that was done, because I can’t really figure out a way of doing it that I think is actually totally right. Like, if we’re trying to get it, do we estimate their possessions on the court by multiplying the BBREF pace of the series by the percent of the minutes in the series that the player played? That assumes pace on and off the floor is the same, so it’s not perfect. And for the inflation-adjusted thing, are we just comparing the points-per-100-possessions in the RS in that year to the points-per-100-possessions in the 2023 RS? Or are we doing that with the playoff numbers for those years? I have a feeling none of this really matters much for the overall picture, but I’m still curious what the OP is doing to get the numbers.

Also it’s by 2023 regular season, I originally clarified that

[ChipotleWest]

"Our rules are designed to allow players to penetrate for higher percentages shots. This has allowed for more high quality perimeter shots as well, because of how much easier it is to penetrate today." - Stu Jackson

Jordan's era was tougher to score no advanced stats will change that, and he STILL beat Lebron in ppg with taking 5000 less 3 pointers. If there was a basketball definition of resilient scorer it would have a picture of Michael Jordan, NOT Lebron James.