Retro Player of the Year 1988-89 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

[tsherkin]

Magic was a great offensive player in 1988-89. But even though he was a better defensive rebounder and had a higher steal rate than Nance did that season, he was nowhere near the overall defender Nance was. Both the Lakers and Cavs went 57-25 that season, and Cleveland was the much better team defensively (101.8 vs. 105.3 pts/100poss allowed).

Again I am not saying Nance was in fact the better player that season, better than Magic, but it's very close. As is Lever vs. Magic.

At face value, it's hard to really see that. A 17/8 forward, even a good defensive guy who was pretty efficient, pales in comparison to a 23/8/13 guy who led the league in FT% and won the MVP, and who was +3.5% TS relative to Nance.

Like, it's extremely hard to conceive the basis of a pro-Nance argument. The Lakers were again a +6 offense (or better), for the fourth time during Magic's tenure... and the fourth time in franchise history. They wouldn't do that again until 98 with Shaq, and haven't done it since. Magic's offensive impact was undeniable. They were an historic offense. The Cavs, by contrast, were a decent offense, and the 2nd-ranked D in the league, and a -4.9 defense. Which is good, but not in the realm of the historic.

Like, respect to Nance, he should probably get more pub time, but comparing him to Magic doesn't really see to pass the smell test. Same same someone like Fat Lever, who was an inefficient scorer who was pretty well-rounded. Like, he literally never had a season of league-average efficiency or better. In his best years, the four years during which he managed 50%+ TS, he was never better than -2.2% rTS. Takes some of the sting out of any discussion of him relative to someone like Magic. Fat, old Magic with HIV playing 32 games at the PF in 1996 was a 61.2% TS guy. He obliterated Fat Lever as a scoring threat, and was a far better playmaker. So that's another which doesn't make sense. Like, the contrast is remarkable. Magic had two seasons UNDER +5% rTS. He had more seasons at +8% rTS or better than Lever did at 50%+. The distance between them was remarkable. So too the distance between him and someone like Nance on O, and defense can only close so much of a gap of that nature.

Lever versus Magic isn't close at all.

[Lebronnygoat]

Better regular season? Magic, close, but not very close. Jordan vs the Cavs is probably on par with Magic vs the Suns that year. But Jordan vs the Knicks is a bigger gap, beating Magic out vs the Suns. Jordan dropped vs Detroit but still had an elite series, likewise with Magic vs Seattle. But it’s honestly not Magic’s fault he couldn’t have played vs Detroit, as he was injured. If he had translated from his 88 self in the finals vs Detroit, to the 89 year? Well, I think as far as an overall better season, Magic would win that. But, Jordan’s got that title because hypotheticals in this case isn’t reality. Though, better overall player on a per possession/per game basis? I don’t think Jordan had yet surpassed Magic, not quite yet.

[Cavsfansince84]

Better regular season? Magic, close, but not very close. Jordan vs the Cavs is probably on par with Magic vs the Suns that year. But Jordan vs the Knicks is a bigger gap, beating Magic out vs the Suns. Jordan dropped vs Detroit but still had an elite series, likewise with Magic vs Seattle. But it’s honestly not Magic’s fault he couldn’t have played vs Detroit, as he was injured. If he had translated from his 88 self in the finals vs Detroit, to the 89 year? Well, I think as far as an overall better season, Magic would win that. But, Jordan’s got that title because hypotheticals in this case isn’t reality. Though, better overall player on a per possession/per game basis? I don’t think Jordan had yet surpassed Magic, not quite yet.

Overall I'd agree its between Magic and Michael for #1 but I don't agree with him having an elite series vs the Pistons. It was probably the worst series of his prime self(88-93), still good by most players standards but after getting a 2-1 series lead the wheels really came off for the Bulls and MJ had 2 bad games as they lost the last 3. MJ wore down in 89 and its obvious in those games and even the commentators were talking about how he seemed tired and not his usual self. Sometimes we gotta admit that even MJ was human. The Pistons defense got to him.

[OhayoKD]

Better regular season? Magic, close, but not very close. Jordan vs the Cavs is probably on par with Magic vs the Suns that year. But Jordan vs the Knicks is a bigger gap, beating Magic out vs the Suns. Jordan dropped vs Detroit but still had an elite series, likewise with Magic vs Seattle. But it’s honestly not Magic’s fault he couldn’t have played vs Detroit, as he was injured. If he had translated from his 88 self in the finals vs Detroit, to the 89 year? Well, I think as far as an overall better season, Magic would win that. But, Jordan’s got that title because hypotheticals in this case isn’t reality. Though, better overall player on a per possession/per game basis? I don’t think Jordan had yet surpassed Magic, not quite yet.

Overall I'd agree its between Magic and Michael for #1 but I don't agree with him having an elite series vs the Pistons. It was probably the worst series of his prime self(88-93), still good by most players standards but after getting a 2-1 series lead the wheels really came off for the Bulls and MJ had 2 bad games as they lost the last 3. MJ wore down in 89 and its obvious in those games and even the commentators were talking about how he seemed tired and not his usual self. Sometimes we gotta admit that even MJ was human. The Pistons defense got to him.

Was it worse than 88 MJ vs the Pistons (or vs the knicks in 93 for that matter)

[kcktiny]

At face value, it's hard to really see that.

Yes. If you have no clue how to evaluate defense.

A 17/8 forward, even a good defensive guy who was pretty efficient, pales in comparison to a 23/8/13 guy who led the league in FT% and won the MVP, and who was +3.5% TS relative to Nance.

Tell me:

- who was more efficient on offense? Magic 1730 pts, 312 turnovers, Nance 1259 pts, 117 turnovers.
- who was the better defender, and by how much?

it's extremely hard to conceive the basis of a pro-Nance argument

Try to evaluate defense. It's half the game.

Magic's offensive impact was undeniable.

Correct. Now how about his defense?

They were an historic offense.

Both teams finished 57-25 in 1988-89.

The Lakers were 1st in the league as a team on offense (112.1 pts/100poss scored), 7th on defense (105.3 pts/100poss allowed).

The Cavaliers were 6th in the league as a team on offense (109.2 pts/100poss scored), 2nd on defense (101.8 pts/100poss allowed)

Cleveland was closer to the Lakers in offensive efficiency than the Lakers were to Cleveland in defensive efficiency.

Like, respect to Nance, he should probably get more pub time, but comparing him to Magic doesn't really see to pass the smell test.

Open your nostrils and learn how to evaluate defense. Watch him play, watch his defense.

Magic was the best offensive player on a 57-25 team that was best in the league offensively. Nance was the best defensive player on a 57-25 team that was 2nd best in the league defensively, while also being very efficient on offense. He scored 17 pts/g shooting the 5th highest 2pt FG% among forwards but while committing just 1.6 to/g.

Learn how to evaluate offensive efficiency. You can quote all the shooting percentages you want - but if you don't include a player's turnovers then you are not truly measuring offensive efficiency.

Same someone like Fat Lever, who was an inefficient scorer

Wrong.

he literally never had a season of league-average efficiency or better

Again you can quote shooting percentages all you want , but if you do not include turnovers you are not truly measuring a player's offensive efficiency. In 1988-89 Lever played similar minutes to Magic (within 5%) but Magic committed close to twice as many turnovers, 312 (3.8 to/g) to 157 (2.1 to/g) for Lever.

Plus Lever was a better rebounder than Magic, especially offensively, had 40% more steals, and was the much better defender outside of defensive rebounds, steals, and blocked shots in 1988-89.

Takes some of the sting out of any discussion of him relative to someone like Magic

Learn how to properly evaluate players when discussing offensive efficiency. Include turnovers.

He obliterated Fat Lever as a scoring threat

Are you lucid?

The 4 years I mentioned, 1986-87 to 1989-90, among all PGs in the league Magic scored the most points (6812, 22.1 pts/g) but Lever scored the 3rd most points (5950, 18.9 pts/g).

Since when is 3.2 pts/g more obliteration? The 4 years 1986-87 to 1989-90 nine PGs played 10,000+ minutes. Among those 9 Magic was 1st but Lever 3rd in points scored.

and was a far better playmaker

Are turnovers a part of playmaking? Last I checked they were.

The 4 years mentioned Magic threw for 57% more assists compared to Lever (3730/2369) but at the expense of 77% more turnovers than Lever (1170/662). Magic threw for the 2nd most assists among PGs, committed the 2nd most turnovers. Lever threw for the 8th most assists but while committing just the 14th most turnovers.

the contrast is remarkable... The distance between them was remarkable

Verbiage like obliterated and remarkable doesn't negate your inability to properly evaluate offensive efficiency.

and defense can only close so much of a gap of that nature

Or your inability to understand that players can impact their team's success just as much through defense as they can through offense.

Right now if you go to stats.nba.com and look at the defensive dashboards:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-2pt?CF=FG2A*GE*106&dir=D&sort=FG2_PCT

You'll see that Victor Wembanyama has allowed a 40% 2pt FG% on defense (61/151 fgm/fga). Karl-Anthony Towns has allowed a 63% 2pt FG% (74/118).

Since you like to quote shooting percentages how big of a difference is it in terms of team impact for a player on offense to shoot just 40% compared to 63% on 2s? I'd bet you say big, as you seem to like quoting FG%s.

You think the impact on defense between allowing a 40% vs. 63% 2pt FG% is similar?

Lever versus Magic isn't close at all.

In your world of only FG%s = offensive efficiency and "defense can only close so much of a gap" perhaps.

[Cavsfansince84]

Was it worse than 88 MJ vs the Pistons (or vs the knicks in 93 for that matter)

Well obviously there's a few others that would be contention for that title. Off memory I can't say which is the worst but I think the 89 series vs the Pistons is up there. In 93 you can always say his team won. In 89 the Bulls collectively sunk. In 88 it was a really green team vs a true contender.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Michael Jordan - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Jordan and Magic are the two best players of this season by far. Magic got hurt in the Finals which really badly hurts his PS. For me to put him ahead of Jordan, I'd have to believe that he's comfortably ahead in impact and I don't believe that. In fact, push comes to shove, I'd say Jordan was the superior individual player. This season MJ becomes a high volume playmaker and combining that with his GOAT level scoring to me just makes him superior offensively to any other player in history including Magic. You can't argue with the level of production combined with the efficiency. And though they are guards and generally guard defense doesn't move the needle too much, Jordan is clearly a superior defensive player. We are talking an all-time great defensive guard compared to an average one. Locking down Isiah in the ECF is extra proof of his two-way dominance at the highest level. He averaged 32.5/8.0/8.0 on 61.4 %TS (+7.7 rTS) in the RS then 34.8/7.0/7.6 on 60.2 %TS (+7.6 rTS) in the PS.

2. Magic Johnson - 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. Magic did do the best with his team in the RS but his PS is marred by the FInals injury. In terms of team success in the PS, he did make it a round further than MJ but he lost to the same opponent in fewer games so it's hard to take that argument seriously. I think if he was healthy and played to his potential in the FInals (even in a loss), it would be almost a toss up between him and MJ because while MJ improved from 1988 so did Magic. Statistically this season, Magic was better than his last including in the PS before he got injured. He averaged 22.5/7.9/12.8 on 62.5 %TS (+8.8 rTS) in the RS then 18.4/5.9/11.8 on 60.9 %TS (+7.7 rTS) in the PS.

3. Hakeem Olajuwon - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. For many years, Hakeem is churching out elite seasons on both ends but the team success isn't there. His casts admittedly aren't great so I have no problem with Hakeem at #3 as I think he's a better overall player than Barkley as the gap between them on defense dwarfs the gap on offense. He averaged 24.8/13.5/1.8 on 55.2 %TS (+1.5 rTS) in the RS then 25.3/13.0/3.0 on 54.9 %TS (+0.0 rTS) in the PS.

4. Charles Barkley - 1st Team All-NBA. Just a complete wrecking ball on offense, monster rebounder, can handle the ball. Before Shaq came into the league, Chuck might have been the most dominant player at attacking the paint. The Sixers were also #3 on offense showing his impact especially considering his supporting cast wasn't special. Defense is problematic as usual for him but I don't think he's a negative on that end and he's still a big impact player. Averaged 25.8/12.5/4.1 on 65.3 %TS (+11.6 rTS) in the RS then 27.0/11.7/5.3 on 69.1 %TS (+14.1 rTS) in the PS.

5. Kevin Johnson - 2nd Team All-NBA. Gets this spot over the other contenders due to his terrific offensive impact in the RS and then a huge PS run leading the Suns to the WCF. KJ is unstoppable getting to the rim and can leverage his scoring threat to get his teammates good shots. Just a terrific floor general. Super efficient offensive player who bleeds value on the defensive end and that's why he isn't above this spot for me. Averaged 20.4/4.2/12.2 on 59.7 %TS (+6.0 rTS) in the RS then 23.8/4.3/12.3 on 61.8 %TS (+8.7 rTS) in the PS.

HM: Patrick Ewing - 2nd Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Elite defender who is merely an entry level all-star on offense.

HM: Karl Malone - 1st Team All-NBA. Utah didn't do much in the PS and though Karl had a good series it's not quite enough.

OPOY

1. Michael Jordan - GOAT scorer with high volume playmaking. Offensive GOAT at his peak. Offense really went up a notch in the PS despite a mediocre supporting cast.

2. Magic Johnson - Just a smidge behind MJ in offensive impact. Captained the #1 offense in the RS.

3. Kevin Johnson - Fantastic historically underrated PG season. Captained the #2 offense in the RS.

DPOY

1. Mark Eaton - Best rim protector in the game. Once again anchors a #1 defense in the RS.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon - Terrific combo of vertical and horizontal defense. Anchors the #4 defense in the RS.

3. Patrick Ewing - Fantastic rim protector who plays high minutes.

[Lebronnygoat]

89 Detroit he was arguably an elite playmaker, into all time great categories with that game 6 had he not been so loose with the ball. Couple that with his 29.7ppg and +4.7rTS, it’s hard to deny that reality. Jordan in 1988 was 27ppg +2.5 and a clearly worse playmaker. 1992 vs Cavs and Knicks was worse, and 1993 vs Knicks.

[tsherkin]

Yes. If you have no clue how to evaluate defense.

No, even still.

- who was more efficient on offense? Magic 1730 pts, 312 turnovers, Nance 1259 pts, 117 turnovers.

Magic, without a shred of hesitation. No one sane would say otherwise.

- who was the better defender, and by how much?

Nance, without question. But there is a difference of magnitude, and defensive players will always lag behind offensive players in terms of impact. Reactionary versus proactive players. That's just what it is. This is why you don't see the Eatons or the Mutombos or the Ben Wallaces or the Goberts leading their teams to repeat titles or dynastic dominance. Defense is valuable, important, even critical, but forcing the issue with offense has a different impact.

Wrong.

Nope. Lever was definitively inefficient every season of his career. He was not a good scorer and his playmaking was only so valuable. And Lever didn't elevate his team to offensive excellence. His impact signals weren't remarkable. Offense... wasn't really his thing, per-game averages notwithstanding.

[quote
Again you can quote shooting percentages all you want , but if you do not include turnovers you are not truly measuring a player's offensive efficiency. In 1988-89 Lever played similar minutes to Magic (within 5%) but Magic committed close to twice as many turnovers, 312 (3.8 to/g) to 157 (2.1 to/g) for Lever.

Sure, but unless you're actively being disingenuous, the assist volume difference informs the reason for the difference in turnover volume.

In 89, Magic averaged 12.8 apg. Lever averaged 7.9.

There is always going to be a difference in total turnovers between two such players, Magic definitely had a higher risk diet than Lever, but the results of what he did justified it. He was a 48.6% AST guy against 18.4% TOV, or 3.17:1. It's not a meaningful difference between the two, most especially when you consider how much better, and higher-volume, a scorer Magic was.

Plus Lever was a better rebounder than Magic, especially offensively,

6.7% ORB vs 4.0% ORB, no one cares.

Learn how to properly evaluate players when discussing offensive efficiency. Include turnovers.

Learn the value of scoring efficiency and volume differences, in scoring and playmaking.

Are you lucid?

The 4 years I mentioned, 1986-87 to 1989-90, among all PGs in the league Magic scored the most points (6812, 22.1 pts/g) but Lever scored the 3rd most points (5950, 18.9 pts/g).

Yes, and Lever was a flat-out waste of skin when you factor in scoring efficiency. You'd have to be either insane or actively committing to a BS argument to argue that there wasn't a yawning chasm between the two as scorers. It couldn't be a good-faith argument.

Are turnovers a part of playmaking? Last I checked they were.

Is volume of assists a part of playmaking?


I grok that you're trying to look at turnovers, but your flagrant disregard for the humongous difference in scoring efficiency immediately renders your argument invalid. And then your argument about turnovers without regard for assist volume does the same. And then, once you get beyond the difference in FG% and draw rate and volume and basically every imaginable aspect of scoring between the two, and the difference in assist production, and the difference in offensive impact which is very specifically evident in any statistical examination of both players, you're left with nothing sensible or sane which supports a pro-Lever argument.

Literally nothing. Lever was a 2-time All-Star who produced volume numbers on a team which led the league in pace in 6 of 7 seasons. He was a very bad scorer, who produced a bunch of assists and rebounds. Comparing him to Magic is an insulting waste of everyone's time.

[LA Bird]

As strange as it may be, I don't think the poster leaving Magic off his ballot is voting strategically for Jordan. He just has a history of weird votes. If we look at his 1987 ballot for example, he didn't mention Jordan at all while ranking Drexler second:

The Trail Blazers weren’t as good at offensive rebounding as the Sixers, but they were in the top 10 of the stat, while having less turnovers and drawing even more fouls. Clyde was the Trail Blazers 2nd leading scorer and playmaker, while also being decent at rebounding.

Though the Trail Blazers and the Sixers were both mediocre defensively, I’ve heard way more positive talk about Clyde’s defense than Barkley’s, which gives him the nod in my opinion.

Just like with the Michael Adams pick, I don't think this guy buys his own argument. How is #2 in the league someone who is not even the best scorer nor best playmaker on his own team and only a decent rebounder who plays better defense than Barkley? There is zero chance a strategic Jordan fan would leave him out of the top 5 completely, let alone rank Drexler second ahead of him. I feel like this is a troll testing how far he can push the boundaries of a "legitimate" vote before getting banned.

On the broader topic, strategic voting could easily be fixed with a change in vote counting system. It's a question of whether the commissioner wants to deviate from previous project norms since a key part of the results is not just the final placing but also the POY share. Perhaps use H2H to determine the final winner between the top 2 so a lopsided vote has no effect? The POY share would still be tainted but at least you can't swing the vote for the winner as easily by putting your favorite at 1 and leaving their biggest rival off.

[One_and_Done]

As strange as it may be, I don't think the poster leaving Magic off his ballot is voting strategically for Jordan. He just has a history of weird votes. If we look at his 1987 ballot for example, he didn't mention Jordan at all while ranking Drexler second:

The Trail Blazers weren’t as good at offensive rebounding as the Sixers, but they were in the top 10 of the stat, while having less turnovers and drawing even more fouls. Clyde was the Trail Blazers 2nd leading scorer and playmaker, while also being decent at rebounding.

Though the Trail Blazers and the Sixers were both mediocre defensively, I’ve heard way more positive talk about Clyde’s defense than Barkley’s, which gives him the nod in my opinion.

Just like with the Michael Adams pick, I don't think this guy buys his own argument. How is #2 in the league someone who is not even the best scorer nor best playmaker on his own team and only a decent rebounder who plays better defense than Barkley? There is zero chance a strategic Jordan fan would leave him out of the top 5 completely, let alone rank Drexler second ahead of him. I feel like this is a troll testing how far he can push the boundaries of a "legitimate" vote before getting banned.

On the broader topic, strategic voting could easily be fixed with a change in vote counting system. It's a question of whether the commissioner wants to deviate from previous project norms since a key part of the results is not just the final placing but also the POY share. Perhaps use H2H to determine the final winner between the top 2 so a lopsided vote has no effect? The POY share would still be tainted but at least you can't swing the vote for the winner as easily by putting your favorite at 1 and leaving their biggest rival off.

I mean, it could be strategic in that they select who they want to win then act accordingly. In 87 they wanted Magic to win, so both Bird and MJ were left off. In 89 they want Jordan to win, so Magic is off.

[70sFan]

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan

It's one of the hardest choices for POY so far. I thought that Jordan had very slightly better season for the 95% of the time (mostly due to his defensive advantage over Magic, who started to hurt his team on that end), but people don't realize that after the first 3 games against the Pistons in which Bulls were highly competitive and Jordan played really well, he just collapsed:

MJ vs Bulls games 1-3: 35.0/7.3/4.3 on 57 TS% and 3.0 tov, Bulls ORtg: 107.6
MJ vs Bulls games 4-6: 24.3/3.7/8.7 on 55 TS% and 4.3 tov, Bulls ORtg: 98.7

I get that Pistons attacked him relentlessly and he was forced to give the ball to his teammates more, but he clearly didn't handle the burden of playmaking load they forced on him.

I guess the question is how I can pick Magic over him, who lost in fewer games against the same team. Well, Magic was injured in the finals but throughout the playoffs he played as well as ever and we've seen Magic handling Pistons defense far better last year. I expect healthy Magic (who was better offensively this year than last) to do perfectly fine and I don't think he missed enough games to leave him from the conversation, especially since his team advanced further anyway.

I'd probably put Jordan ahead of Magic without the last 3 Pistons games, but between that and this version of Magic being basically GOAT offensive player, I felt obliged to put Magic at the top.

3. Hakeem Olajuwon

I think Olajuwon had the best defensive season of his career up to that point (arguably ever, but some may consider 1990 even more impressive) but he faces stellar competition at the top and he didn't accomplish much in the playoffs unfortunately. That doesn't mean he's a worse player than the top 2, but it does hurt him a bit in POY conversation. He's clearly better than the other candidates though, that's for sure.

4. Charles Barkley
5. Patrick Ewing

HM: Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone

I can see all 4 finishing the top 5. I decided to go with the best offensive player left and the best defender. I struggle to put young Malone there yet, he's still unrefined offensively and didn't have the same craftiness he'd get later. KJ might be underrated by my voting, he's incredible but I just prefer Barkley's offensive dominance.

OPOY

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan
3. Charles Barkley
HM: Kevin Johnson

DPOY

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Mark Eaton
3. Patrick Ewing

[LA Bird]

I mean, it could be strategic in that they select who they want to win then act accordingly. In 87 they wanted Magic to win, so both Bird and MJ were left off. In 89 they want Jordan to win, so Magic is off.

They voted Jordan and Magic 1 and 2 last year so I don't think that is the case either. Also, if they were actually voting strategically for their favorite, they could do it far more inconspicuously than with a pick like Michael Adams ahead of Magic Johnson. It seems intentional to me.

[OhayoKD]

89 Detroit he was arguably an elite playmaker, into all time great categories with that game 6 had he not been so loose with the ball. Couple that with his 29.7ppg and +4.7rTS, it’s hard to deny that reality. Jordan in 1988 was 27ppg +2.5 and a clearly worse playmaker. 1992 vs Cavs and Knicks was worse, and 1993 vs Knicks.

Curious if you looked at creation quality with your tracking. He looked alot worse than all-time just looking at the assists but obviously looking at the whole game can paint a different picture.

Also would be cool to see if you have tracking for any of the games specific to those series

[homecourtloss]

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan

It's one of the hardest choices for POY so far. I thought that Jordan had very slightly better season for the 95% of the time (mostly due to his defensive advantage over Magic, who started to hurt his team on that end), but people don't realize that after the first 3 games against the Pistons in which Bulls were highly competitive and Jordan played really well, he just collapsed:

MJ vs Bulls games 1-3: 35.0/7.3/4.3 on 57 TS% and 3.0 tov, Bulls ORtg: 107.6
MJ vs Bulls games 4-6: 24.3/3.7/8.7 on 55 TS% and 4.3 tov, Bulls ORtg: 98.7

I get that Pistons attacked him relentlessly and he was forced to give the ball to his teammates more, but he clearly didn't handle the burden of playmaking load they forced on him.

Good post. One thing I’m not so sure about is Magic hurting them on defense. I’ve been a lot higher on his defense after rewatching him and seeing many of the plus/minus, r-WoWY numbers. He clearly has defensive limitations, and you don’t see the qualities of a good defender out there on too many actions, but for the era he played in, his limitations didn’t seem to hurt the lakers too much. If he were playing today and were asked to guard out to 30 feet on ball-screen actions, that would be a different story. They still had a better defense in 1989 than they did in 1988. You had older Cooper, AC, Thompson, Scott, but you also had older Kareem, Worthy, Big O who didn’t defend. On balance, Magic being a negative defender would likely have pushed the Lakers down on defense, but then again, his offensive genius helps in this regard as there are fewer transition opportunities for teams since the Lakers are always scoring.

[Djoker]

I think the narrative of Jordan collapsing in the last three games in the Pistons series is very overblown. He still had a +3.1 rTS and a better than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio not to mention excellent D against Isiah. Individually, he played a very strong series.

[B-Mitch 30]

As strange as it may be, I don't think the poster leaving Magic off his ballot is voting strategically for Jordan. He just has a history of weird votes. If we look at his 1987 ballot for example, he didn't mention Jordan at all while ranking Drexler second:

The Trail Blazers weren’t as good at offensive rebounding as the Sixers, but they were in the top 10 of the stat, while having less turnovers and drawing even more fouls. Clyde was the Trail Blazers 2nd leading scorer and playmaker, while also being decent at rebounding.

Though the Trail Blazers and the Sixers were both mediocre defensively, I’ve heard way more positive talk about Clyde’s defense than Barkley’s, which gives him the nod in my opinion.

Just like with the Michael Adams pick, I don't think this guy buys his own argument. How is #2 in the league someone who is not even the best scorer nor best playmaker on his own team and only a decent rebounder who plays better defense than Barkley? There is zero chance a strategic Jordan fan would leave him out of the top 5 completely, let alone rank Drexler second ahead of him. I feel like this is a troll testing how far he can push the boundaries of a "legitimate" vote before getting banned.

In my defense, I may have undersold Clyde's rebounding a bit, as he led the Blazers in offensive boards, which I mention in my 1988 post. I also said why I left MJ off my 1987 ballot there. I don't know how else to convince you I'm not a troll, other than saying I'm not one. I think if you look through my posting history, I tend to try to add something of value to the discussions I join.

[70sFan]

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Michael Jordan

It's one of the hardest choices for POY so far. I thought that Jordan had very slightly better season for the 95% of the time (mostly due to his defensive advantage over Magic, who started to hurt his team on that end), but people don't realize that after the first 3 games against the Pistons in which Bulls were highly competitive and Jordan played really well, he just collapsed:

MJ vs Bulls games 1-3: 35.0/7.3/4.3 on 57 TS% and 3.0 tov, Bulls ORtg: 107.6
MJ vs Bulls games 4-6: 24.3/3.7/8.7 on 55 TS% and 4.3 tov, Bulls ORtg: 98.7

I get that Pistons attacked him relentlessly and he was forced to give the ball to his teammates more, but he clearly didn't handle the burden of playmaking load they forced on him.

Good post. One thing I’m not so sure about is Magic hurting them on defense. I’ve been a lot higher on his defense after rewatching him and seeing many of the plus/minus, r-WoWY numbers. He clearly has defensive limitations, and you don’t see the qualities of a good defender out there on too many actions, but for the era he played in, his limitations didn’t seem to hurt the lakers too much. If he were playing today and were asked to guard out to 30 feet on ball-screen actions, that would be a different story. They still had a better defense in 1989 than they did in 1988. You had older Cooper, AC, Thompson, Scott, but you also had older Kareem, Worthy, Big O who didn’t defend. On balance, Magic being a negative defender would likely have pushed the Lakers down on defense, but then again, his offensive genius helps in this regard as there are fewer transition opportunities for teams since the Lakers are always scoring.

I think he started to slow down notably on defense in the next year, it's possible that this one was the last "prime defensive year" for him. I do agree that Magic wasn't really a bad defender and I don't think he'd have that much problems today either (certainly not to the same degree someone like Luka has).

[70sFan]

I think the narrative of Jordan collapsing in the last three games in the Pistons series is very overblown. He still had a +3.1 rTS and a better than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio not to mention excellent D against Isiah. Individually, he played a very strong series.

It's of course relative to his own standards, but he didn't led the Bulls to respectable offenses in these games (and his teammates weren't that bad at converting shots, though obviously outmatched) and I think it shows a limitation of his playmaking ability. He also scored on relatively low volume, so +3.1 rTS% is not super impressive.

I wouldn't call it bad in absolute sense, but he fights with basically peak Magic here. This series would put him ahead of most POY contenders in the league history anyway.

[Djoker]

I think the narrative of Jordan collapsing in the last three games in the Pistons series is very overblown. He still had a +3.1 rTS and a better than 2:1 assist to turnover ratio not to mention excellent D against Isiah. Individually, he played a very strong series.

It's of course relative to his own standards, but he didn't led the Bulls to respectable offenses in these games (and his teammates weren't that bad at converting shots, though obviously outmatched) and I think it shows a limitation of his playmaking ability. He also scored on relatively low volume, so +3.1 rTS% is not super impressive.

I wouldn't call it bad in absolute sense, but he fights with basically peak Magic here. This series would put him ahead of most POY contenders in the league history anyway.

Fair post.

The only thing I'd add is that it was a defensive series. The Bulls also held the Pistons below their averages. The Pistons as a team shot 49.8 %TS for the series which is 5.3% less than their season average. But they murdered the Bulls on the boards and especially Rodman coming off the bench hurt them a lot. He was the X-factor in the series IMO.