Retro Player of the Year 1998-99 UPDATE — Tim Duncan

[DCasey91]

Wait hold up...... People argue for DROB overtly

Yet a poster can't hold for their picks just because you don't like their reasoning?

Double standards.... Yet again.

Unfortunately it's impossible to police ridiculous votes, because you're just enforcing your own biases. The only solution is for more thought to be given to who votes, and who runs projects & how they run them, before the project begins. Too late to do anything about it now.

1. The project runner specifically stated inclusivity in the beginning. Which isn't great imho because of lack of film (1980's onwards we all have acces to full games) not exclusivity

2. You 100% sound like an elitist word for word, by definition that's elitist mentality That's your opinion that's fine

Whose being the bias one now?

Wait wait I don't like a vote because....

Cool that is your problem if the voter gave his reasoning... Which he did

How credible is the Project really if the majority here and the project runner literally let a joke voter stand?

Not enforcing anything

I'm stating the bleeding obvious

[DCasey91]

Wait hold up...... People argue for DROB overtly

Yet a poster can't hold for their picks just because you don't like their reasoning?

Double standards.... Yet again.

Such a good point, hate those double standards of treating 1999 Robinson as a more legitimate selection than 1999 Sabonis or Larry Johnson.

Stop sulking about how I told you that you need to follow the rules for voter induction.

Stop being an elitist gatekeeper, no wonder the quality has gone down. Doing a poor job of running the show

He gave his explanation

Where was that energy for the joke poster?

Double standards.

[OhayoKD]

Wait hold up...... People argue for DROB overtly

Yet a poster can't hold for their picks just because you don't like their reasoning?

Double standards.... Yet again.

Unfortunately it's impossible to police ridiculous votes, because you're just enforcing your own biases. The only solution is for more thought to be given to who votes, and who runs projects & how they run them, before the project begins. Too late to do anything about it now.

1. The project runner specifically stated inclusivity in the beginning. Which isn't great imho because of lack of film (1980's onwards we all have acces to full games) not exclusivity

2. You 100% sound like an elitist word for word, by definition that's elitist mentality That's your opinion that's fine

Hmmm

Where was that energy for the joke poster?

The irony here is this best refers to yourself

[DCasey91]

Responding to Enigma, looking at my rationale for prior votes for Shaq, in 1994 his free throw shooting was much better, in 1995 he made the Finals, and in 1997 the Lakers had a huge defensive turnaround when he joined, with Shaq arguably being at his defensive peak. As for the rest of my votes, I'm not going to pretend I'm not arbitrary at times. Still, if nothing else, I think I try to find players who were clearly by and far the best players on their teams. Sometimes a good postseason run helps convince me, sometimes it doesn't. I think I've defended my votes as best as I can, if you can't accept them that's just how it is, no hard feelings.

FWIW, i'd be in favor of counting the vote. I imagine under this level of scrutiny alot of ballots would fall apart

Thank you someone is being logical.

[DCasey91]

Unfortunately it's impossible to police ridiculous votes, because you're just enforcing your own biases. The only solution is for more thought to be given to who votes, and who runs projects & how they run them, before the project begins. Too late to do anything about it now.

1. The project runner specifically stated inclusivity in the beginning. Which isn't great imho because of lack of film (1980's onwards we all have acces to full games) not exclusivity

2. You 100% sound like an elitist word for word, by definition that's elitist mentality That's your opinion that's fine

Hmmm

Where was that energy for the joke poster?

The irony here is this best refers to yourself

Dude show me? Show me where that's referring to myself

If your'e thinking of the DROB argument where did I question the legitimacy of the vote? I said your'e flat wrong. Did I care about the legitimacy? No

What are you talking about?

I'm calling out the discprencies in the behaviour with one poster vs another. He has his reasoning his vote should not be under question especially when all votes aren't examined like that, in regards to Shaq/Malone obviously it's a different vote that does mean the legitimacy becomes questionable automatically

You literally just stated if same scrutiny was across the board then many votes wouldn't hold up as well which is completely sound logic

Where am I being an elitist? Where is the irony?

Show me, literally where am I being ironic here.

I'm calling out bs for what it is because it's bs.

The project runner just stated just before "I'll probably count the vote as it won't matter much"

Dude that's being an elitist. Fine if that's route this board is taking so be it

[AEnigma]

Wait hold up...... People argue for DROB overtly

Yet a poster can't hold for their picks just because you don't like their reasoning?

Double standards.... Yet again.

Such a good point, hate those double standards of treating 1999 Robinson as a more legitimate selection than 1999 Sabonis or Larry Johnson.

Stop sulking about how I told you that you need to follow the rules for voter induction.

Stop being an elitist gatekeeper, no wonder the quality has gone down. Doing a poor job of running the show

He gave his explanation

Where was that energy for the joke poster?

Double standards.

> accuse me of “elitist gatekeeping”

> attack me for admitting “joke posters”

This is why I know you are just specifically mad that you were not given a courtesy extended to absolutely no one else. You wanted double standards, and after being provided none, now you evidently intend to spend the entire time complaining rather than making any real contribution.

[DCasey91]

Not accusing you, you are one.
Democracy rights to vote, you have the posters listed to vote

You guys on consensus structured the voting principle and still let something slip with the joke vote but the structure is there on legitimacy of vote

Voter gave his reasoning as to why. Followed instruction

You the gatekeeper/enforcer literally stating further explanation is required....

What?

Don't worry this board isn't turning into an elitist approach.... It already is one

My contribution is calling out the BS every single time.

It'll probably end up being 6-7 guys measuring the pee and the arguements, evidence, and proposals do not matter it's the persuasiveness/power of accord, populist. Objective truth gets lost

Dude legit just had to further explain which he didnt have to at all for you then you go and say well I'll probably consider the vote but it won't matter much

Poor management is poor management

Derailing, backseat moderating. trex

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Not accusing you, you are one.
Democracy rights to vote, you have the posters listed to vote

You guys on consensus structured the voting principle and still let something slip with the joke vote but the structure is there on legitimacy of vote

Voter gave his reasoning as to why. Followed instruction

You the gatekeeper/enforcer literally stating further explanation is required....

What?

Don't worry this board isn't turning into an elitist approach.... It already is one

My contribution is calling out the BS every single time.

It'll probably end up being 6-7 guys measuring the pee and the arguements, evidence, and proposals do not matter it's the persuasiveness/power of accord, populist. Objective truth gets lost

Dude legit just had to further explain which he didnt have to at all for you then you go and say well I'll probably consider the vote but it won't matter much

Poor management is poor management

Are you talking about Strongestgrainer? The one that wrote down everything all the players do and got more into it than almost anyone?

voting against mj doesn't make your votes a joke. Get over it.

[Lebronnygoat]

POY
1. Duncan
Best guy for sure. On a night to night basis 22/2.4/11 on +3 rTs and DPOY D. Then 22/3/12 on +7 rTs and if you watch the game Duncan’s creating a bunch. KG’s first round is probably better but I don’t think that’s more important than 82 games and three playoff rounds. 3 rises and 1 drop. He outplays Shaq big time scoring 29 to 23 with +9rTS to -1rTS and way better defense. Shaq creates more but not by enough. Robinson gets too much credit for guarding Shaq playing 30 minutes when Duncan is affecting him and everyone for 44.
2. Kevin Garnett
Top 5 in the RS. Ugly 20 on -2rts but creates alot and great D and has basically no one. He plays great vs Duncan and holds him to 19 points on +0 rTS which is his worst scoring series by far. Shoots bad but makes a ton and great defense and rebounding without a Drob or anyone good really.
3. Shaq
Really good regular season and first round. Dogwater vs the Spurs though.
4. Malone
Is terrible in the playoffs. Just chokes and a completely stupid MVP.
5. Zo
Duncan-esq efficient 20 and great D. Probably creates an okay amount but I haven’t checked

[DCasey91]

Huh?

This has nothing to do with MJ.

Do you know what caricature means? He did it for all of them. Hence joke

And you the voters and the project runner allowed it

I literally just said right or wrong on the placing that's not the point it's the behaviour that's highly hypocritical and double standard

A poster just said if same scrutiny was applied/done for all votes then the majority wouldn't hold up well. Which is completely sound logic

Got more into does not change the fact of the caricature of the voting.

Does it or does it no against what was stated initially in the voting structure that was predisposed beforehand in the previous project then further outlined in this one? Yes or no it's still a damn caricature

This poster stated his reasoning and for some stupid reason had to defend it further

Hypocrisy.

I don't know how to explain it anymore clearer than that. Do you want the caricature to further expand on the anime like writing describing players? I mean for amusement 100%. You cannot tell me with a straight face that's a legitimate position when before it began the process was done to determine legitimacy

.... Then you go back on it because.... You like them. That's all very good but it further proves my points I was warning about

It's clear as day this board is full of itself

[DCasey91]

Project runner did a poor brief investigation on the voters past saying well you voted for Shaq in such and such years

Please explain

What happened in Shaq's playoffs this year?
Was Malone elite in efficiency in the playoffs?

If you want to examine about good faith at least do a better job next time in understanding the other side's opinion

... That's called perspective

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Alonzo Mourning
3 - Kevin Garnett
4 - Shaq
3 - Karl Malone

Duncan duh. Everyones voting him and he's mega outscoring Shaq and he almost sweeps everyone with not all that. Only a couple people really talked about his defense and one even did a whole eyetest thing with it and it seems like wasn't a way worse def than drob either. Advanced stats didn't stop russell from winning POY every year so I don't know why they should stop Duncan when he's making the Spurs way better.

If Alonzo's going to be a dpoy guy and score a bunch on good ts and have his stats get better in the playoffs and shut down the other guy I'll take him over a bunch of guys who weren't winning in the RS or playing D like him or just choking big time in the playoffs.

Did KG outplay duncan? I don't know but it seeems possible? Better stats on I think a better D and takes a game with his team injuted and Duncan has his like worst stats by far. I think if you outplay a 1 duh guy you can be top 3. Seems there's okay excuses for them not winning much in the RS.

I wasn't just gonna be like wow Shaq got swept he must have sucked but those numbers are kind of crazy. Feel if you're letting a guy whose known for defense have way more points on way better true shooting you got to drop.

Malone and his team don't do what they should in more than 1 series so if Shaq goes to 5 think he goes to 5

Defensive Player of the Year

1 - Alonzo Mourning
2 - David Robinson
3 - Tim Duncan

Offensive Player of the Year

1 - Shaq
2 - Tim Duncan
3 - Karl Malone

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Huh?

This has nothing to do with MJ.

Do you know what caricature means? He did it for all of them. Hence joke

And you the voters and the project runner allowed it

I literally just said right or wrong on the placing that's not the point it's the behaviour that's highly hypocritical and double standard

A poster just said if same scrutiny was applied/done for all votes then the majority wouldn't hold up well. Which is completely sound logic

Got more into does not change the fact of the caricature of the voting.

Does it or does it no against what was stated initially in the voting structure that was predisposed beforehand in the previous project then further outlined in this one? Yes or no it's still a damn caricature

This poster stated his reasoning and for some stupid reason had to defend it further

Hypocrisy.

I don't know how to explain it anymore clearer than that. Do you want the caricature to further expand on the anime like writing describing players? I mean for amusement 100%. You cannot tell me with a straight face that's a legitimate position when before it began the process was done to determine legitimacy

.... Then you go back on it because.... You like them. That's all very good but it further proves my points I was warning about

It's clear as day this board is full of itself

You know a joke format doesnt mean the votes or whys are jokes right?

If the votes and whys are good who cares that they have fun with anime. Seems like you're the one full of yourself to me

[DCasey91]

Might want to read what was said back then about it.

A poster put down his votes, stating his reasoning for his top 5. It's your opinion that it's a bad vote

Heck the consensus can say its a bad vote what I'm not for is bs reasons to enforce bs stating you need to further expand on it

All because you didn't like the the placing in the first place?

That's your problem. He shouldn't have to defend it as he did in the first place.

Not when you have a person writing joke essays every single time.

Hypocrisy

[One_and_Done]

Might want to read what was said back then about it.

A poster put down his votes, stating his reasoning for his top 5. It's your opinion that it's a bad vote

Heck the consensus can say its a bad vote what I'm not for is bs reasons to enforce bs stating you need to further expand on it

All because you didn't like the the placing in the first place?

That's your problem. He shouldn't have to defend it as he did in the first place.

Not when you have a person writing joke essays every single time.

Hypocrisy

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, but can we maybe move this discussion to the project thread.

[DCasey91]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan

The Spurs offense was unspectacular, but well rounded this season, being in the top 16 of eFG, turnover percentage, offensive rebounding, and free throws per field goal attempt. However, they improved in the playoffs, as Duncan led the team in points and offensive rebounds, while being second in assists, as he won his first championship.

2. Grant Hill

Hill had a superb season, leading the Pistons in points and assists on fine efficiency, and being a good rebounder. Similar to the Spurs, the team was in the top 15 of eFG, offensive rebounds, and free throws per field goal attempt, while their turnover percentage was bad, but not bottom of the barrel. Though Hill lost in the first round, it seems clear that the team wouldn’t have even made the playoffs without him.

3. Arvydas Sabonis

The Trail Blazers offense was even more well rounded than the Spurs, being in the top 13 of the aforementioned stats, with the team managing to reach the Conference Finals. Sabonis was the best player on the Blazers, being one of their most efficient scorers, and 2nd on the team in assists and offensive rebounds, despite his low amount of minutes.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Alonzo Mourning
3. Arvydas Sabonis

Besides their excellent offense, the Trailblazers had one of the league’s best defenses, and once again Sabonis was the best defensive rebounder and shot blocker on the team despite his limited minutes, allowing him to provide value even when his efficiency declined in the playoffs.

4. Dikembe Mutombo

Dikembe wasn’t the offensive player Mourning was, but the Hawks were in the top 4 of offensive rebounding and fouls per field goal attempt, while being 12th in turnover percentage. Their only weakness was eFG, as Dikembe was literally the only starter who played in over 36 games who had a positive true shooting percentage. The man was clearly the most important player on the Hawks by far.

5. Larry Johnson

Johnson was probably the best player on the surprise Conference champion Knicks, as Patrick Ewing missed significant time with an achilles problem. Johnson was one of only two starters to have a positive eFG, and managed to stay somewhat efficient in the playoffs, as well as hitting a game winning four point play in the Conference Finals.

You need to explain the glaring Shaq and Malone omissions here.

As a reminder:

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

You cite “well-rounded” offences for the Spurs and Blazers while ignoring that the Lakers and Jazz were both top three offences (with the Lakers being “top 13” in all four offensive factors, so their exclusion is nonsensical even by that invented standard). You say Sabonis’s defence keeps him top three even when his offence fades, but ignore that the Blazers had the worst defensive and overall team performance against the Spurs. Staying on Sabonis, you have previously used minutes as a way to elevate players, but suddenly no longer care.

Johnson led the NBA in minutes
…
[Kidd] also played 8 more minutes per game than McDyess, while having a plus-minus higher by 123

And you say you feel the regular season should matter more than usual… then completely ignore the second-best regular season team.

This should not be a recurring issue with you.

That last sentence is Exhibit A narcissism.

Have you done this long winded diatribe to every voter that would take you ages to do.

Has he been a contrarian voter?

You obviously didn't look in to the perspective of year by year votes did you?

I just want to see if you keep that same energy because your'e running the show

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Might want to read what was said back then about it.

A poster put down his votes, stating his reasoning for his top 5. It's your opinion that it's a bad vote

Heck the consensus can say its a bad vote what I'm not for is bs reasons to enforce bs stating you need to further expand on it

All because you didn't like the the placing in the first place?

That's your problem. He shouldn't have to defend it as he did in the first place.

Not when you have a person writing joke essays every single time.

Hypocrisy

I remember we all said that the votes should count and then someone got mad and conspiracy theory because they were using an anime format even though there was nothing wrong with the votes or why grainer voted the way she voted. And then MJ started losing and you guys started coming at us instead of making points.

I feel like Bmitch votes should count but singling grainer out kind of makes it obv you're just mad about MJ lol. There's no way those votes shouldn't count.

[DCasey91]

Dude you have MJ brain on your mind.
That's what 3 times now?

If you care to look I've been consistently critical on this board about bs/hypocrisy and double standards, called out the Larry Bird inconsistency and illogical position same with the DROB one this year.

I don't have "guys" on my side it's just me that's it.

Hubie Brown played 8 games for his career.

The voter isn't voting for just some guy.

MJ stans are all the same

The caricature voter stands. A voter gets his votes done and you said it should count look at what bs the runner has posted about it

Just read it back. Dude should get an apology

[homecourtloss]

lol this an absolutely wild meltdown because people aren’t automatically placing Jordan first. I am 100% sure that had this been the exact same thing happening, but instead of Jordan being moved down, and some other player was, this meltdown would not happen. So, yes—it is about Jordan.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Dude you have MJ brain on your mind.
That's what 3 times now?

If you care to look I've been consistently critical on this board about bs/hypocrisy and double standards, called out the Larry Bird inconsistency and illogical position same with the DROB one this year.

I don't have "guys" on my side it's just me that's it.

Hubie Brown played 8 games for his career.

The voter isn't voting for just some guy.

MJ stans are all the same

The caricature voter stands. A voter gets his votes done and you said it should count look at what bs the runner has posted about it

Just read it back. Dude should get an apology

Just cause you keep saying caricature doesn't change grainer's votes are as legit as anyone's. And you and all the other guys are lame for getting mad they did an anime thing.