Magic vs Lebron in offense

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Lebron had higher highs but also much lower lows in terms of prime play on offense.

But when Lebron is at his peak, I think he is better.

I also think Lebron is best as the primary handler but wasn't always used to maximize his offensive value.

I think LeBron's offensive value was notably muted in Miami versus some of his roles in Cleveland where he functioned more like a PG. This doesn't mean that LeBron wasn't still extremely good offensively in Miami—he was. However, I believe his overall creation and playmaking value took a dip when playing next to Wade.

Magic is often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think LeBron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lens.

Looking at PS rORTG since the '60s per Backpicks, LeBron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes, but depending on the range you use, it still shows LeBron leading better offenses. For example, LeBron's Cavs-Heat years topped Magic’s Lakers in 8-year PS offense.

To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, an 8-year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). LeBron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career.

If you look at shorter peak PS stretches such as single-year or 3-year PS stretches, I think once again, LeBron comes out looking stronger. According to Backpicks, the 2015–17 Cavs have the 3rd best unique offensive PS stretch for relative offensive rating, and keep in mind LeBron did not have a healthy Kyrie or KLove for much of the 2015 PS. This once again surpasses the Lakers' offensive performance, and reinforces the idea that LeBron at the PG is probably best served for exerting his full impact.

If you don't like using relative offensive rating to judge playoff offense, there is another method called common offensive rating.
Common offensive rating compares a team’s postseason play to other teams against that same given opponent (for that particular PS). The rORTG is also listed on the side too, where a team’s playoff offensive rating is compared to its opponent’s regular season defensive ratings. The Cavs have the best common offensive rating of the time period.

The best 3-year offenses and defense (minimum of 20 games played across three postseason trips), we see the following unique team peaks in playoff offense per common offensive rating (cORTG) via Backpicks since 1984 (but only other potential contenders would be if you go back to Mikan days).

| Team | Year | cORTG | rORTG |
| ---- | ------- | ----- | ----- |
| CLE | 2015–17 | 13.0 | 9.5 |
| MIA | 2012–14 | 9.7 | 8.7 |
| LAL | 1987–89 | 9.4 | 9.0 |

LeBron's offenses come out looking better under this approach as well. The 2016 Cavs (+15.3 cORTG) and 2017 Cavs (+14.6) have the two highest single-season offensive marks using this approach. Under the 3-year guise, the Cavs would be at least #1 going back to 1984.

Now, the question might be, "how do we know LeBron had the capacity in Miami to elevate offenses to better heights than he showed?"

While you do not want to take the numbers at face value, and want to keep in mind we don't always know what players LeBron was facing with Wade off, we see a drastic spike in LeBron's floor-raising performance without Wade on the court.

Right. And in my mind, who's to say that LeBron was stiff in adapting his game? LeBron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade was out.

**LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012–14:**

* 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
* 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
* Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
*(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)*

And if you want a bigger sample size that includes the RS:

**12–14 LeBron without Wade on the floor:**

* 34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
* +9.5 rTS%
* 7.2 IA AST/75
* 39.5% from 3
* 67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)
*(3700 Minutes Played Sample)*

If you look at LeBron's offensive box-score metrics at face value, on average he comes out ahead of Magic. Though I would argue that the metrics show his value was even higher in more heliocentric or ball-dominant roles. I'm not arguing that LeBron's average offensive prime year is universally the highest, but rather that shifting LeBron to a variety of other teams—specifically where he handles the ball more—would show him to be more impactful than his Miami numbers might suggest.

I would argue LeBron meshed decently well with Chris Bosh, someone who was a floor-spacer and could be a role man, opening up driving lanes for LeBron. I think LeBron and Wade's styles clashed a bit, to the point where—even though they both were good—their offensive impact wasn't what it would be in many other situations.

Of course, I could be gauging things incorrectly, and not penalizing LeBron enough for his box-score production not being as great with Wade on. However, I just feel like more times than not, LeBron can elevate a great enough variety of teams around the league that his offensive impact would overall be greater.

My final piece of evidence for my belief that LeBron at the PG position may have more value than perhaps Magic is by just looking at his peak in all-in-one metrics.

If you look at single-season peaks (and PS peaks for the metrics that have a PS-only component) in the following metrics:

* O-BPM
* Backpicks O-BPM
* O-PIPM
* O-RAPTOR
* O-TWPR
* Crafted OPM

LeBron actually surpasses Magic in all of them, which is perhaps suggestive of the idea that LeBron can elevate teams to special heights with the ball in his hands.

[lessthanjake]

Great work, although to make it fair I think we have to acknowledge that James played significantly more playoff series than any of these players and he plays at the age Magic was far into retirement.

James played more playoff series from 2009 through 2020 (i.e., 41) than Jordan (37) Magic (39), or Curry (30) have in their respective careers. 38 out of 41 series were positive rORtg series including 28 in a row from 2011 through 2017.

In these 41 series, LeBron had as many +20 rORtg series (three) as he had negative rORtg series (three). Not sure why 20+ rORtg series weren’t part of the charts above?

I'm only comparing Jordan for now, may edit in Magic and Steph later....

Jordan
1985:
+5.1

1986:
+5.7

1987:
+3.0

1988:
+3.8
-11.5

1989:
+3.9
+8.3
-1.6

1990:
+10.0
+8.3
-2.1

1991:
+8.8
+10.8
+17.0
+10.7

1992:
+15.8
+7.0
+1.2
+6.0

1993:
+10.8
+10.4
+12.7
+6.3

1995 (rusty Jordan):
+4.5
+4.0

1996:
+2.9
+0.9
+10.7
+8.3

1997:
+10.0
+11.4
+2.7
+0.3

1998:
+9.9
+2.1
+11.4
-0.9 (The last dance )

From 2009-2018, Lebron still had 4/37 series (10.8%) at or below zero rORtg: 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2018 ECR1, 2018 Finals. By comparison, 1989-1998 Jordan had 0/32 series (0.0%) and 2013-2022 Curry had 2/26 series (7.7%) at or below zero rORtg: 2015 WCSF, 2022 WCSF. And Magic is also better with either 1 or 2 series only if we take the 1982-1991 stretch.

Look man, I like you as a poster, but when HCL said "yet another", you just proved him right here. You don't need to lie for Jordan to make him look like the GOAT, you can make a case without it. 3/32 (9.4%) of his series: 1998 Finals Last Dance, 1989 and 1990 Pistons.
Not even mentioning the horrendous -11.5 he had against the Pistons in 1988.
I don't like people lying about players to make them look better or worse, it's ridiculous.

You’re taking the Bulls overall rORTG, not their rORTG with Jordan on the court. Djoker’s numbers are the rORTG during the minutes these players were on the court. And, unsurprisingly, the Bulls generally did significantly better offensively with Jordan on the court than when he wasn’t on the court, so his on-court rORTGs are much better than the Bulls’ overall rORTG. I think before accusing someone of lying it may be worth stepping back for a second to consider whether you may be misunderstanding what they said.

[Top10alltime]

James played more playoff series from 2009 through 2020 (i.e., 41) than Jordan (37) Magic (39), or Curry (30) have in their respective careers. 38 out of 41 series were positive rORtg series including 28 in a row from 2011 through 2017.

In these 41 series, LeBron had as many +20 rORtg series (three) as he had negative rORtg series (three). Not sure why 20+ rORtg series weren’t part of the charts above?

I'm only comparing Jordan for now, may edit in Magic and Steph later....

Jordan
1985:
+5.1

1986:
+5.7

1987:
+3.0

1988:
+3.8
-11.5

1989:
+3.9
+8.3
-1.6

1990:
+10.0
+8.3
-2.1

1991:
+8.8
+10.8
+17.0
+10.7

1992:
+15.8
+7.0
+1.2
+6.0

1993:
+10.8
+10.4
+12.7
+6.3

1995 (rusty Jordan):
+4.5
+4.0

1996:
+2.9
+0.9
+10.7
+8.3

1997:
+10.0
+11.4
+2.7
+0.3

1998:
+9.9
+2.1
+11.4
-0.9 (The last dance )

From 2009-2018, Lebron still had 4/37 series (10.8%) at or below zero rORtg: 2010 ECSF, 2014 Finals, 2018 ECR1, 2018 Finals. By comparison, 1989-1998 Jordan had 0/32 series (0.0%) and 2013-2022 Curry had 2/26 series (7.7%) at or below zero rORtg: 2015 WCSF, 2022 WCSF. And Magic is also better with either 1 or 2 series only if we take the 1982-1991 stretch.

Look man, I like you as a poster, but when HCL said "yet another", you just proved him right here. You don't need to lie for Jordan to make him look like the GOAT, you can make a case without it. 3/32 (9.4%) of his series: 1998 Finals Last Dance, 1989 and 1990 Pistons.
Not even mentioning the horrendous -11.5 he had against the Pistons in 1988.
I don't like people lying about players to make them look better or worse, it's ridiculous.

You’re taking the Bulls overall rORTG, not their rORTG with Jordan on the court. Djoker’s numbers are the rORTG during the minutes these players were on the court. And, unsurprisingly, the Bulls generally did significantly better offensively with Jordan on the court than when he wasn’t on the court, so his on-court rORTGs are much better than the Bulls’ overall rORTG. I think before accusing someone of lying it may be worth stepping back for a second to consider whether you may be misunderstanding what they said.

Ok, then can you show those calculations? Thanks.

And DJoker, I'm very sorry, I didn't know you were talking about that. Hope you can forgive

[lessthanjake]

I'm only comparing Jordan for now, may edit in Magic and Steph later....

Jordan
1985:
+5.1

1986:
+5.7

1987:
+3.0

1988:
+3.8
-11.5

1989:
+3.9
+8.3
-1.6

1990:
+10.0
+8.3
-2.1

1991:
+8.8
+10.8
+17.0
+10.7

1992:
+15.8
+7.0
+1.2
+6.0

1993:
+10.8
+10.4
+12.7
+6.3

1995 (rusty Jordan):
+4.5
+4.0

1996:
+2.9
+0.9
+10.7
+8.3

1997:
+10.0
+11.4
+2.7
+0.3

1998:
+9.9
+2.1
+11.4
-0.9 (The last dance )



Look man, I like you as a poster, but when HCL said "yet another", you just proved him right here. You don't need to lie for Jordan to make him look like the GOAT, you can make a case without it. 3/32 (9.4%) of his series: 1998 Finals Last Dance, 1989 and 1990 Pistons.
Not even mentioning the horrendous -11.5 he had against the Pistons in 1988.
I don't like people lying about players to make them look better or worse, it's ridiculous.

You’re taking the Bulls overall rORTG, not their rORTG with Jordan on the court. Djoker’s numbers are the rORTG during the minutes these players were on the court. And, unsurprisingly, the Bulls generally did significantly better offensively with Jordan on the court than when he wasn’t on the court, so his on-court rORTGs are much better than the Bulls’ overall rORTG. I think before accusing someone of lying it may be worth stepping back for a second to consider whether you may be misunderstanding what they said.

Ok, then can you show those calculations? Thanks.

And DJoker, I'm very sorry, I didn't know you were talking about that. Hope you can forgive

Djoker made a thread on Jordan’s numbers here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2465160. Djoker also has a more general thread listing these numbers for a bunch of different players: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2448658&p=117724594#p117724594. And we’ve discussed Magic’s rORTG numbers in this thread.