The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[E-Balla]

Well, so lets play that game with Jordan:

1991 finals

game 1
last 3 minutes of 4th
at the beginning of that stretch Bulls lead 87-86
clutch time, his team needs him, but Jordan disappears!
he takes only 2 shots and misses both of them. He also can't guard Magic, need help and that leaves Perkins open, who hits 3.

Bulls lose 91-93 after unclutch Jordan performance!

That's 3 minutes. J23F had quarter to half game samples.

game 3
from the middle of 1st quarter (21-19 Bulls lead)
to the end of 4th Jordan shot 4/17 and his teammates, especially Pippen and Cliff (12 points on 6/7 FG combined in the 4th) take away the lead from Lakers (72-64 after 3rd quarter) and force OT.

To quote some wise man: GOAT my ass.

At least in the Lebron samples his team lost the lead.


Not saying it means Lebron sucked because I'm not going as far as J23F but Lebron has disappeared for amazingly long stretches in the last 6 games. And it wasn't disappearing when everything was good but disappearing when his team was doing horribly. Personally I blame both Bron and Spo. Bron for allowing Spo to let D Wade make things happen and Spo for playing Wade in the role he had in 2011 even though he's not that guy anymore.

[lorak]

At least in the Lebron samples his team lost the lead.

So Jordan's supporting cast was better.

And this two examples were from top of my head from Jordan's the best (or second best) finals ever. If I would dig deeper, I would found more such examples. And my point was only to show how silly is what J23F is doing.

[LikeABosh]

Don't worry about J23F. He invites a comparison between Lebron and Jordan, but as soon as we break it down he says they can't be compared. Okay, then

[E-Balla]

At least in the Lebron samples his team lost the lead.

So Jordan's supporting cast was better.

And this two examples were from top of my head from Jordan's the best (or second best) finals ever. If I would dig deeper, I would found more such examples. And my point was only to show how silly is what J23F is doing.

Well of course you would probably find a lot more in 96 but he does have a point. Now using it to prop up Jordan, who I think everyone agrees is better than Lebron, is just annoying which is why I said nothing at the thrashing he got for his first post here.

[Jordan23Forever]

So Jordan's supporting cast was better.

And this two examples were from top of my head from Jordan's the best (or second best) finals ever. If I would dig deeper, I would found more such examples. And my point was only to show how silly is what J23F is doing.

You certainly would not find examples of the length and frequency that Lebron has shown in this series all from one series for Jordan - certainly not in his prime. You're being incredibly disingenuous. Again, this has been obvious to everyone with eyes. It has been commented on on forums and in the media at large. Just stop - you're embarrassing yourself.

[Jordan23Forever]

I can't believe people are not only okay with the fact that this dude has disappeared and/or been rendered ineffective for 25-35 minute stretches multiple times in this series, but that they're actually DENYING it despite me laying out the FACTS right in front of their eyes. Hysterical!

[Brenice]

I honestly can't fathom how anyone can have watched this series and thinks that Lebron has had even a "good" series. It has been a disgrace. He has been invisible for 80% of the series and looks lost most of the time. The Spurs aren't even loading up on him defensively.

I think this is an instructive post.

The Spurs entire gameplan has been to "load up" on LeBron. They are basically having Tim Duncan play goaltender -- all he has to do is not get called for defensive 3 seconds (and perhaps the officials have been liberal with that), but his job when LeBron catches the ball in an isolation on one side, the pinch post or the low block has been to stand in the lane and play goalie. What happens to Duncan's man, you ask? Usually Dwyane Wade's guy will just leave him to come down into the fray so if Duncan has to really commit to James, another Spur will be in the paint. San Antonio has basically built a wall at the hoop, and they've done this because they feel it's the best way to defend an attack that is predicated on the ability of James to be a threat near the basket.

Load up on LeBron? Yeah, in the paint. But they are GIVING him an open 15ft shot. All he has to do is shoot it.

[ronnymac2]

Inappropriate; you know better, ronny.

I can't believe people are not only okay with the fact that this dude has disappeared and/or been rendered ineffective for 25-35 minute stretches multiple times in this series, but that they're actually DENYING it despite me laying out the FACTS right in front of their eyes. Hysterical!

Let me tell you something you ****, you aren't providing any facts, you're just selectively looking at one part of the game and forgetting that opportunities created are really the crux of being a great offensive anchor. Unlike in 2011, LeBron has been creating opportunities for his teammates at a stellar pace in this series. Even when healthy looking Wade attacks (Games 4 and 5), they send single coverage or reactionary help at him. They don't have 10 eyes glued to him like they do at LBJ. As ElGee said, they're basically playing borderline illegal defense considering they have the paint loaded up 90 percent of the time.

LeBron's perimeter shooting, despite 12-27 from mid-range, isn't consistent this series. Ding him for that, that's fine.

You can't get over the fact that a guy people are calling the best in today's NBA isn't impacting the game the same way that your boy Michael Jordan did in his time. LeBron is a different style. Part of that is being different as a player, and another part is that the game has changed (rules, styles, personell, etc.) — not saying it's better or worse, just different.

You're too close-minded to see any of that though.

[Brenice]

If LeBron played 4th quarters with a take no prisoners mentality like he did game 6, I don't think nobody would complain. But he doesn't. He has a history of letting other teams "take" the game while he passes the balls instead of dominating with his scoring. Jordan owned the 4th quarter like no other player.

[TheChosen618]

If LeBron played 4th quarters with a take no prisoners mentality like he did game 6, I don't think nobody would complain. But he doesn't. He has a history of letting other teams "take" the game while he passes the balls instead of dominating with his scoring. Jordan owned the 4th quarter like no other player.

It doesn't have much to do with mentality as it has to do with lineups.

Yes, there are times where Lebron is straight up passive, but a lot of the times it's because as ElGee mentioned because the Spurs are loading up on him. This usually only happens when Wade is out there, but when you surround him by snipers or just threats from outside which Wade isn't, then he plays really well. It opens up a lot for him.

It's Lebron's fault that his jumper is garbage right now, but he could be doing better if he was given the opportunity to do so.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Jordan was 7 years removed form High School before he got out of the first round. LeBron has just as many titles, more wins, more playoff wins, and more awards than Jordan did at the same age. IMO, Lebron is on pace to be considered the GOAT.

Jordan is great, but he wont always be the greatest.

[semi-sentient]

Check out these numbers for LeBron with Duncan on the bench: 46 pts, 20-33 fg, 3-4 ft, 6 ast

That's insane efficiency, and I don't think he has any turnovers either. Duncan is clearly having a huge effect out there defensively.

If I'm Popovich I find a way to rest Duncan when LeBron goes to the bench. If he continues with his current rotations then the Spurs are toast. Duncan is going to have to reach deep down to find a way to play another effective 40+ minutes in game 7, that's for sure.

[SideshowBob]

Check out these numbers for LeBron with Duncan on the bench: 46 pts, 20-33 fg, 3-4 ft, 6 ast

That's insane efficiency, and I don't think he has any turnovers either. Duncan is clearly having a huge effect out there defensively.

If I'm Popovich I find a way to rest Duncan when LeBron goes to the bench. If he continues with his current rotations then the Spurs are toast. Duncan is going to have to reach deep down to find a way to play another effective 40+ minutes in game 7, that's for sure.

Here we go: http://tinyurl.com/lj7rzpb

Yeah just a single TO with Duncan on the bench. That's a huge shift in scoring rate as well, 16.7 pts/36min in 203 minutes with Duncan on the floor. 31.1 pts/36min in 53 minutes with Duncan off (USG shift of 28.8% -> 33.9%).

[SideshowBob]

Jumpshooting by series (BBR)

Code: Select all

Year     Series     FG     FGA     eFG%

2009     Detroit    4.8    12.0   .427
2009     Atlanta    6.0    12.8   .598
2009     Orlando    5.8    15.5   .435
2010     Chicago    6.2    12.8   .586
2010     Boston     3.8    11.5   .384
2011     76ers      4.4    11.6   .414
2011     Boston     6.0    15.8   .443
2011     Chicago    5.4    13.8   .442
2011     Dallas     3.5     9.8   .432
2012     Knicks     4.8    13.0   .423
2012     Pacers     5.5    14.8   .388
2012     Boston     6.4    15.9   .446
2012     Thunder    3.4    12.6   .294
2013     Bucks      2.8     6.3   .500
2013     Chicago    2.6     9.0   .356
2013     Pacers     5.7    13.1   .516

Code: Select all

Year     Series     FG     FGA     eFG%

2013     Spurs      4.5     14.0  .363

[semi-sentient]

Check out these numbers for LeBron with Duncan on the bench: 46 pts, 20-33 fg, 3-4 ft, 6 ast

That's insane efficiency, and I don't think he has any turnovers either. Duncan is clearly having a huge effect out there defensively.

If I'm Popovich I find a way to rest Duncan when LeBron goes to the bench. If he continues with his current rotations then the Spurs are toast. Duncan is going to have to reach deep down to find a way to play another effective 40+ minutes in game 7, that's for sure.

Here we go: http://tinyurl.com/lj7rzpb

Yeah just a single TO with Duncan on the bench. That's a huge shift in scoring rate as well, 16.7 pts/36min in 203 minutes with Duncan on the floor. 31.1 pts/36min in 53 minutes with Duncan off (USG shift of 28.8% -> 33.9%).

Interesting... didn't know I could do that at nba.com. I went through the game logs to confirm my suspicions so it looks like I missed a shot attempt and 4 assists.

Code: Select all

MP   PTS   TS%    AST   REB   TOV   BLKA
53   46    .643   10    19    1     0

[SideshowBob]

Here we go: http://tinyurl.com/lj7rzpb

Yeah just a single TO with Duncan on the bench. That's a huge shift in scoring rate as well, 16.7 pts/36min in 203 minutes with Duncan on the floor. 31.1 pts/36min in 53 minutes with Duncan off (USG shift of 28.8% -> 33.9%).

Interesting... didn't know I could do that at nba.com. I went through the game logs to confirm my suspicions so it looks like I missed a shot attempt and 4 assists.

Code: Select all

MP   PTS   TS%    AST   REB   TOV   BLKA
53   46    .643   10    19    1     0

That's tedious stuff. Its awesome that they have this easily accessible now

[TheChosen618]

Here we go: http://tinyurl.com/lj7rzpb

Yeah just a single TO with Duncan on the bench. That's a huge shift in scoring rate as well, 16.7 pts/36min in 203 minutes with Duncan on the floor. 31.1 pts/36min in 53 minutes with Duncan off (USG shift of 28.8% -> 33.9%).

Interesting... didn't know I could do that at nba.com. I went through the game logs to confirm my suspicions so it looks like I missed a shot attempt and 4 assists.

Code: Select all

MP   PTS   TS%    AST   REB   TOV   BLKA
53   46    .643   10    19    1     0

That's tedious stuff. Its awesome that they have this easily accessible now

Is there a stat with Lebron vs. Duncan without Wade and Lebron vs. Duncan with Wade?

[Mr2KElite12]

I see a Lebron who is not confident enough with his jump shot to completely destroy the Spurs because the defend the paint really well. It's would take a big game for one of the role players for the Heat to finish this off. This series ha proven one thing Lebron can't/ doesn't want to do it by himself. But if he's the best player he should close tonight regardless of anything else.

[ElGee]

Guys, is the bickering fun?

Sideshow has created and driven a phenomenal thread for these last few months. It's really devolved into something that isn't pleasurable to read. We don't have to fight each other so much all the time just because we disagree about basketball. It's supposed to be fun and educational. (Well, if you want it to be )

Is LeBron's "weakness" his inability to bury 18 foot jumpers? Yes, to a degree. It's also his strength because he doesn't settle for low-percentage possessions, especially early in the clock. He'd have to shoot well over 50% on those shots for them to be good which is something few players in history can probably do. Still, with a more consistent shot he could have better balance between taking those attempts and not taking them...and that's about the only reasonable criticism of the guy in this series.

And as for the Finals, it's been one of the best I can remember. The quality of basketball, and the adjustments, are absolutely insane. I would hope people are enjoying that, and as someone who has been so consumed by winning arguments in the past, I know I haven't enjoyed great Finals in the past because I've let myself forget why I watch the game. Has LeBron had a transcendent series? Nope. Has he had a very good one? I'd say pretty easily, yes. The whole thing has been awesome to watch, even his so-called warts.

[Greatness]

I remember when this thread was about LeBron's abilities as a player now in comparison to Cleveland. Now it's become a place where haters can bash him after every game. Let's not turn this into the general board guys.