Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[70sFan]

Unlike players today, Wilt didn't have the benefit of studying players before him, since he was the first of his kind as an uber athletic center, and the rules didn't allow for him to be physical like Shaq did. You can't compare his offensive skillset to those who came after him and had the benefit of all that collective knowledge plus excellent college and/or pro coaches.

Actually, I think that in terms of low-post repertoire Wilt could challenge any player regadless of era or anything. He was very versatile post player with a lot of moves and counter moves .

The more I get prime Wilt footage, the more skilled he looks. I never thought I'd find him even attempting a straight jumpshot for example and now I have a few examples of him making jumpshots (not fadeaways).

[VanWest82]

But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight.

I'm going to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

[70sFan]

But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight.

I'm going to have to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

[Jaivl]

But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight.

I'm going to have to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Nah, come on, Gilmore ain't that strong.

[VanWest82]

But by all accounts Wilt was still stronger than Shaq at all points in their respective careers despite his extra weight.

I'm going to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Wilt was built like a gazelle (all legs) whereas Shaq just had a way bigger, umm...post thrust. Lower center of gravity - that's what I meant. We might need to include Yao in the conversation for strongest ever. That guy was massive.

[HeartBreakKid]

What about Mark Eaton? He must have been pretty strong

[70sFan]

What about Mark Eaton? He must have been pretty strong

Definitely among the strongest, although he rarely used it in different situations than positioning. He was basically immovable inside, though almost 40 years old Gilmore stepped up to the challenge in their only available matchup.

[70sFan]

I'm going to have to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Nah, come on, Gilmore ain't that strong.

Why not?

[70sFan]

I'm going to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Wilt was built like a gazelle (all legs) whereas Shaq just had a way bigger, umm...post thrust. Lower center of gravity - that's what I meant. We might need to include Yao in the conversation for strongest ever. That guy was massive.

But Wilt pushed around players with lower center of gravity without much problems. Yao is a good mention, but I'd definitely have him below Wilt/Gilmore/Shaq tier.

[Heej]

I'm going to have to disagree with this one kendogg unless you mean relative to other players from their era, in which case I'm still going to disagree. I do like the comparison though as players: offensive big guys with a fatal flaw (FT shooting)

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Wilt was built like a gazelle (all legs) whereas Shaq just had a way bigger, umm...post thrust. Lower center of gravity - that's what I meant. We might need to include Yao in the conversation for strongest ever. That guy was massive.

Take it for what it's worth but I've found that the super explosive guys that I play against are all WAYYYY stronger than average for their size. I wonder if it's because they produce a lot of force and their core had to get strong enough to handle it, or maybe their bones, tendons, and ligaments are just built different; but for some reason without exception the more explosive guys end up being stronger than they look. Even the skinny ones are ALL wiry strong if they've got hops.

So I think with Yao even tho he's bigger if you compare him to someone almost as big like Shaq, Shaq is probably still more powerful because he has some kind of force multiplier due to his bodys explosive nature vs Yao not being as explosive. When you watch the highlights of them, Shaq moves/bumps off Yao more than vice versa. Admittedly, some of that could be due to lower center of gravity but idk if I can take the title of strongest from Shaq. Those explosive dudes are just different as far as strength goes and I imagine Shaq kinda had that similar thing going for him.

[Outside]

Show us what the correct speed is.

Yes please. If you're gonna claim 70's was misrepresenting wilt's speed, show us th eoriginal clip

Watch on YouTube

Wilt's body and athleticism changed dramatically between the beginning and end of his career. Early in his career, he was skinny, light, and had athleticism characterized by running, jumping, and quickness, all accentuated by his long limbs. By the end of his career, Wilt was massive, strong, and had explosion within a limited range, but he didn't run like a gazelle or have the repeated quick jumping like in the early days.

Many people use the attributes that Wilt displayed in his early career to define athleticism more than the attributes of his later career. In his later career, he was still amazingly athletic within a limited space, even more so if you consider strength a factor in assessing athleticism, but when covering ground, he was much more of a lumbering figure due to his bulk.

Russell, on the other hand, was a "track star" type of athlete throughout his career. Of course his body changed over time and he filled out and got stronger, but he didn't bulk up hugely, and he maintained excellent speed and quickness in space in his later career.

The 1969 finals videos show Wilt in later career mode -- bigger, stronger, dominant within his space but not able to cover ground like his early days. They also show Russell able to run the floor and with amazing endurance, even in these final games of his career and after dealing with the accumulation of wear and tear.

When assessing Wilt's speed and quickness, you have to establish what parameters you're using. If you've looking at peak speed covering ground, you don't use the 1969 finals for that. If you want to say that he didn't maintain his ability to cover ground throughout his career, then the 1969 finals can be evidence for that. If you want to say that he had explosion throughout his career, perhaps built on quickness plus leaping ability early and strength plus less but still significant quickness and leaping ability later, then the 1969 finals can be used as part of that story.

But the point is that Wilt's athleticism from a career perspective isn't something you can assess based a single point in his career. Russell's athleticism was unusually constant throughout his career, while Wilt's was unusually dynamic.

[kendogg]

Well everyone loses quickness and stamina as they age, but Wilt was in tremendous shape throughout his career, and came back as well as you can expect from a major knee injury late in his career in the 1970 season.

Wilt was still fast (as in top speed, not quickness) late in his career with his long legs he is just very notorious for purposely slowing the pace of the game as much as possible (Russ was the opposite he tried to push the pace as much as possible). Wilt used a lot of energy on both ends and played monstrous amounts of minutes even late in his career so he tried to catch breathers whenever he could, even holding the rebound for a second or two before passing it off. Wilt could move faster when he had to, but of course not quite as spry when he was older. Wilt also put on muscle as his career progressed for all the beatings he took on a nightly basis. Like Shaq, he was so much stronger than everyone else that people had to hack the sh$% out of him to foul him and stop him from dunking. I read somewhere that Wilt almost quit basketball after his first season because of the pounding he took.

[Djoker]

I actually largely agree with Ben Taylor's assessment of Wilt. His footwork was quite poor compared to other pantheon centers. His most effective offense was catching the ball over the shorter defenders and attacking the offensive glass. Due to his motor and insane speed running the floor he could often get position on opposing players and he was insanely active on the boards judging from the footage. Problem is that good defenders like Russell and Thurmond would routinely take those easy opportunities away forcing Wilt either into difficult shots which plummeted his efficiency or forcing him to become conservative and reduce his volume. In that era there was a large discrepancy between weak matchups and strong matchups. The famous turnaround finger roll could be easily disrupted because it's a spinning motion and a simple touch from the defender could disrupt his balance. There isn't perhaps enough footage of the fadeaway that I've seen but given the low release point and how hard he shot it, I sincerely doubt it was a very accurate shot.

With that being said, what I've seen of Wilt's footage makes me think he was a seriously great defensive player. The metrics support this as well. His ability not just to jump higher than anyone I've ever seen but to cover distance. The way he recovers is just out of this world on some plays. I think he could completely change the game on the defensive end whereas on offense I see him clearly lagging behind Kareem, Shaq and even Hakeem. On defense I could see him over all of them.

Just my two cents.

[70sFan]

I actually largely agree with Ben Taylor's assessment of Wilt. His footwork was quite poor compared to other pantheon centers.

I agree that Shaq had better footwork, but Wilt had better footwork than someone like Robinson, Ewing or Russell. I think that his footwork is actually very underrated, he knew how to make separation and his gigantic steps allowed him to drop step inside way too quickly for defender.

His most effective offense was catching the ball over the shorter defenders and attacking the offensive glass.

That's also Shaq's most effective offense. Easy buckets are usually more effective than isolations.

Due to his motor and insane speed running the floor he could often get position on opposing players and he was insanely active on the boards judging from the footage.

I agree and this is very overlooked aspect of Wilt's game - he was probably the best offensive rebounder ever (maybe even better than Moses?). This gave him gigantic imapct as an off-ball player.

Problem is that good defenders like Russell and Thurmond would routinely take those easy opportunities away forcing Wilt either into difficult shots which plummeted his efficiency or forcing him to become conservative and reduce his volume. In that era there was a large discrepancy between weak matchups and strong matchups.

Well, Thurmond did that even to Kareem who was GOAT scorer, so I wouldn't use it against Wilt. With Russell, it's not that simple - Wilt still averaged a lot against him and he had some outstanding scoring series like in 1965 or even in 1962.

The famous turnaround finger roll could be easily disrupted because it's a spinning motion and a simple touch from the defender could disrupt his balance.

It's not a shot I'd recommand for regular player as a go-to move, but you have to remember that Wilt was insanely strong and a simple touch from defender couldn't disrupt his balance.

There isn't perhaps enough footage of the fadeaway that I've seen but given the low release point and how hard he shot it, I sincerely doubt it was a very accurate shot.

Wait, Wilt's release was quite high on fadeaway shot:

Spoiler:

It's actually higher than most players. I know that as he got older, he started to shoot fadeaway with lower and lower release, but we're talking about prime Wilt here - right?

With that being said, what I've seen of Wilt's footage makes me think he was a seriously great defensive player. The metrics support this as well. His ability not just to jump higher than anyone I've ever seen but to cover distance. The way he recovers is just out of this world on some plays. I think he could completely change the game on the defensive end whereas on offense I see him clearly lagging behind Kareem, Shaq and even Hakeem. On defense I could see him over all of them.

Just my two cents.

I agree with this part, except that I'm not sure about Wilt vs Hakeem offensively and I do think that Hakeem was better defender than Wilt.

[Djoker]

I agree that Shaq had better footwork, but Wilt had better footwork than someone like Robinson, Ewing or Russell. I think that his footwork is actually very underrated, he knew how to make separation and his gigantic steps allowed him to drop step inside way too quickly for defender.

His footwork was very sloppy. I think he probably got called for travel a lot based on how often it occurs on the footage. Even Ben Taylor had the same hunch.

That's also Shaq's most effective offense. Easy buckets are usually more effective than isolations.

Shaq was also incredibly lethal in any situation within 5 feet of the basket even if the defender was between him and rim. Wilt rarely wanted to attack with power. And again his lack of footwork limited him there as well.

I agree and this is very overlooked aspect of Wilt's game - he was probably the best offensive rebounder ever (maybe even better than Moses?). This gave him gigantic imapct as an off-ball player.

Agreed. He was a terror on the glass. Funny enough and somewhat unrelated but by the early 70's though it was Kareem who terrorized Wilt on the offensive boards.

Well, Thurmond did that even to Kareem who was GOAT scorer, so I wouldn't use it against Wilt. With Russell, it's not that simple - Wilt still averaged a lot against him and he had some outstanding scoring series like in 1965 or even in 1962.

He had a few nice series against Russell but generally speaking Russell gave him a big haircut compared to other centers.

I think prime Kareem was way more unstoppable offensively. Around 1977 I don't think Thurmond or Wilt or anyone could have put a dent in him. Bucks Kareem was a bit too light and could be pushed out of position more easily and also get his balance disrupted.

It's not a shot I'd recommand for regular player as a go-to move, but you have to remember that Wilt was insanely strong and a simple touch from defender couldn't disrupt his balance.

It wasn't a major go-to weapon that makes him comparable to someone like Shaq.

Wait, Wilt's release was quite high on fadeaway shot:

Spoiler:

It's actually higher than most players. I know that as he got older, he started to shoot fadeaway with lower and lower release, but we're talking about prime Wilt here - right?

Sorry I didn't mean low release but low arc. It was a flat shot.

I agree with this part, except that I'm not sure about Wilt vs Hakeem offensively and I do think that Hakeem was better defender than Wilt.

I think Wilt has a case over Hakeem defensively. His defense is so so impressive. Thanks to peeps like you, we have a lot more footage to look at and I've looked through basically all that I could get my hands on!

[colts18]

Unlike players today, Wilt didn't have the benefit of studying players before him, since he was the first of his kind as an uber athletic center, and the rules didn't allow for him to be physical like Shaq did. You can't compare his offensive skillset to those who came after him and had the benefit of all that collective knowledge plus excellent college and/or pro coaches.

Actually, I think that in terms of low-post repertoire Wilt could challenge any player regadless of era or anything. He was very versatile post player with a lot of moves and counter moves .

The more I get prime Wilt footage, the more skilled he looks. I never thought I'd find him even attempting a straight jumpshot for example and now I have a few examples of him making jumpshots (not fadeaways).

I agree with the assessment that it's important to adjust for the benefit of studying players. Modern players have the advantage of studying past players and getting ideas from them. The past players never didn't have that advantage. They didn't have youtube. A lot of the past players didn't even have film study. Is it fair to say that Zach Lavine is the best dunker in history over Dr. J, MJ, or Vince Carter? When I was young, the most iconic dunk was MJ dunking from the Free Throw Line. That was the pinnacle of dunks. Everyone was measuring their dunks based on that. Zach Lavine is doing 360 dunks from the Free Throw Line nowadays. Is he a better dunker than MJ? MJ never saw a 360 dunk Free Throw Line dunk so he never had the opportunity to practice it.

[70sFan]

His footwork was very sloppy. I think he probably got called for travel a lot based on how often it occurs on the footage. Even Ben Taylor had the same hunch.

I don't think there are video evidences to believe that Wilt got called for a travel a lot. There are two instances of that in game 4 of 1964 finals, but other than that I haven't seen anything that would suggest he got called for a travel more than other bigs.

Also - what do you mean by "very sloppy"? I've seen him doing quick moves, I've seen him countering defender's footwork, I've seen him using long strides to beat defender. He didn't have light feet like Hakeem, but he was huge and he knew how to use footwork to make separation.

Shaq was also incredibly lethal in any situation within 5 feet of the basket even if the defender was between him and rim. Wilt rarely wanted to attack with power. And again his lack of footwork limited him there as well.

So you say that Wilt wasn't lethal in isolations? I don't think there is any reason to believe that.

Agreed. He was a terror on the glass. Funny enough and somewhat unrelated but by the early 70's though it was Kareem who terrorized Wilt on the offensive boards.

Terrorized is a strong word, but I agree that Kareem gave him problems on the glass. Again - Wilt was over 10 years older though and Kareem was incredible athlete himself.

He had a few nice series against Russell but generally speaking Russell gave him a big haircut compared to other centers.

Russell is the GOAT defensive player and he had a lot of good defenders around him. Wilt did better against such a stellar competition than most would.

I think prime Kareem was way more unstoppable offensively. Around 1977 I don't think Thurmond or Wilt or anyone could have put a dent in him. Bucks Kareem was a bit too light and could be pushed out of position more easily and also get his balance disrupted.

I agree that Kareem peaked offensively in 1977, but I don't see any reasons to believe that he wouldn't struggle against Thurmond. Nate gave him fits because of his length and positioning, not because he was much heavier (he wasn't).

I'm positive about Shaq struggling against Thurmond as well. Nate made every matchup personal and he was the master of post game - it wasn't strictly about him being strong or tough. He was known for studying opponent's tendencies and working hard to take away his best weapons. I don't think Shaq would be too good for Thurmond if Kareem and Wilt weren't.

It wasn't a major go-to weapon that makes him comparable to someone like Shaq.

Shaq didn't have better go-to move. His one handed turnaround wasn't efficient and Wilt's finger roll gave him better chance for offensive rebound.

Sorry I didn't mean low release but low arc. It was a flat shot.

Alright then, but most of his shots were bankers. Duncan also had flat shot but he wasn't inefficient with it.

I think Wilt has a case over Hakeem defensively. His defense is so so impressive. Thanks to peeps like you, we have a lot more footage to look at and I've looked through basically all that I could get my hands on!

Well, I'm glad we have got new material from the 1960s and there are still a lot left

[LakerLegend]

Yes please. If you're gonna claim 70's was misrepresenting wilt's speed, show us th eoriginal clip

Watch on YouTube

Wilt's body and athleticism changed dramatically between the beginning and end of his career. Early in his career, he was skinny, light, and had athleticism characterized by running, jumping, and quickness, all accentuated by his long limbs. By the end of his career, Wilt was massive, strong, and had explosion within a limited range, but he didn't run like a gazelle or have the repeated quick jumping like in the early days.

Many people use the attributes that Wilt displayed in his early career to define athleticism more than the attributes of his later career. In his later career, he was still amazingly athletic within a limited space, even more so if you consider strength a factor in assessing athleticism, but when covering ground, he was much more of a lumbering figure due to his bulk.

Russell, on the other hand, was a "track star" type of athlete throughout his career. Of course his body changed over time and he filled out and got stronger, but he didn't bulk up hugely, and he maintained excellent speed and quickness in space in his later career.

The 1969 finals videos show Wilt in later career mode -- bigger, stronger, dominant within his space but not able to cover ground like his early days. They also show Russell able to run the floor and with amazing endurance, even in these final games of his career and after dealing with the accumulation of wear and tear.

When assessing Wilt's speed and quickness, you have to establish what parameters you're using. If you've looking at peak speed covering ground, you don't use the 1969 finals for that. If you want to say that he didn't maintain his ability to cover ground throughout his career, then the 1969 finals can be evidence for that. If you want to say that he had explosion throughout his career, perhaps built on quickness plus leaping ability early and strength plus less but still significant quickness and leaping ability later, then the 1969 finals can be used as part of that story.

But the point is that Wilt's athleticism from a career perspective isn't something you can assess based a single point in his career. Russell's athleticism was unusually constant throughout his career, while Wilt's was unusually dynamic.

Watch on YouTube

[ZeppelinPage]

He had a few nice series against Russell but generally speaking Russell gave him a big haircut compared to other centers.

This seems to be understating what Wilt was able to do. He was playing against the #1 defense in the league for an entire series and as Al Attles has said, was routinely being double to triple teamed due to the lack of illegal defense calls at the time. This is further backed up in film study, where one can see the poor spacing around Wilt and the Celtics routinely bringing KC Jones over for pressure. This is the reason why Wilt's shots dip quite a bit vs the Celtics, it was hard for players to get the ball in to him.

Obviously one can expect some regression in efficiency when comparing a full season versus a series against the #1 team and defense in the league. Wilt's TS% numbers usually dipped a couple points vs the Celtics, but a few seasons he was around the same or better than his league average. To do this against such an amazing defense for the time is actually incredibly impressive.

Just compare Wilt, LeBron, and Jordan vs the strongest defenses of their careers:

Jordan
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

LeBron
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Wilt
1964: vs Celtics = 29.2 ppg on .509 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1965: vs Celtics = 30.1 ppg on .575 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-9.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1962: vs Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .515 %TS [+3.6 rTS] (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Regardless of the Celtics and Russell lowering Wilt's efficiency, he was still very efficient overall compared to other top players, especially for the era. Going from insanely efficient to very efficient when he is routinely surrounded by multiple players is actually more of a feat for Wilt, in my opinion.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Wilt's body and athleticism changed dramatically between the beginning and end of his career. Early in his career, he was skinny, light, and had athleticism characterized by running, jumping, and quickness, all accentuated by his long limbs. By the end of his career, Wilt was massive, strong, and had explosion within a limited range, but he didn't run like a gazelle or have the repeated quick jumping like in the early days.

Many people use the attributes that Wilt displayed in his early career to define athleticism more than the attributes of his later career. In his later career, he was still amazingly athletic within a limited space, even more so if you consider strength a factor in assessing athleticism, but when covering ground, he was much more of a lumbering figure due to his bulk.

Russell, on the other hand, was a "track star" type of athlete throughout his career. Of course his body changed over time and he filled out and got stronger, but he didn't bulk up hugely, and he maintained excellent speed and quickness in space in his later career.

The 1969 finals videos show Wilt in later career mode -- bigger, stronger, dominant within his space but not able to cover ground like his early days. They also show Russell able to run the floor and with amazing endurance, even in these final games of his career and after dealing with the accumulation of wear and tear.

When assessing Wilt's speed and quickness, you have to establish what parameters you're using. If you've looking at peak speed covering ground, you don't use the 1969 finals for that. If you want to say that he didn't maintain his ability to cover ground throughout his career, then the 1969 finals can be evidence for that. If you want to say that he had explosion throughout his career, perhaps built on quickness plus leaping ability early and strength plus less but still significant quickness and leaping ability later, then the 1969 finals can be used as part of that story.

But the point is that Wilt's athleticism from a career perspective isn't something you can assess based a single point in his career. Russell's athleticism was unusually constant throughout his career, while Wilt's was unusually dynamic.

Watch on YouTube

You have a strange bias against Wilt and you're trying to make him look as bad as possible (which doesn't work in this case, Wilt looks fantastic in this game). Is it because you are Shaq fan? Why can't you just appreciate both guys?