Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[70sFan]

He had a few nice series against Russell but generally speaking Russell gave him a big haircut compared to other centers.

This seems to be understating what Wilt was able to do. He was playing against the #1 defense in the league for an entire series and as Al Attles has said, was routinely being double to triple teamed due to the lack of illegal defense calls at the time. This is further backed up in film study, where one can see the poor spacing around Wilt and the Celtics routinely bringing KC Jones over for pressure. This is the reason why Wilt's shots dip quite a bit vs the Celtics, it was hard for players to get the ball in to him.

Obviously one can expect some regression in efficiency when comparing a full season versus a series against the #1 team and defense in the league. Wilt's TS% numbers usually dipped a couple points vs the Celtics, but a few seasons he was around the same or better than his league average. To do this against such an amazing defense for the time is actually incredibly impressive.

Just compare Wilt, LeBron, and Jordan vs the strongest defenses of their careers:

Jordan
1993: vs. Knicks = 32.2 ppg on .522 %TS [-1.4 rTS] (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1997: vs. Heat = 30.2 ppg on .475 %TS [-6.1 rTS] (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1996: vs. Sonics = 27.3 ppg on .538 %TS [-0.4 rTS] (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

LeBron
2008: vs. Celtics = 26.7 ppg on .480 %TS [-6.0 rTS] (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2014: vs. Pacers = 22.8 ppg on .637 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
2011: vs. Celtics = 28.0 ppg on .553 %TS [+1.2 rTS] (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Wilt
1964: vs Celtics = 29.2 ppg on .509 %TS [+2.4 rTS] (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1965: vs Celtics = 30.1 ppg on .575 %TS [+9.6 rTS] (-9.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)
1962: vs Celtics = 33.6 ppg on .515 %TS [+3.6 rTS] (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Regardless of the Celtics and Russell lowering Wilt's efficiency, he was still very efficient overall compared to other top players, especially for the era. Going from insanely efficient to very efficient when he is routinely surrounded by multiple players is actually more of a feat for Wilt, in my opinion.

This is something people rarely look at - Wilt faced ridiculous defensive competition in playoffs.

[LakerLegend]

Wilt's body and athleticism changed dramatically between the beginning and end of his career. Early in his career, he was skinny, light, and had athleticism characterized by running, jumping, and quickness, all accentuated by his long limbs. By the end of his career, Wilt was massive, strong, and had explosion within a limited range, but he didn't run like a gazelle or have the repeated quick jumping like in the early days.

Many people use the attributes that Wilt displayed in his early career to define athleticism more than the attributes of his later career. In his later career, he was still amazingly athletic within a limited space, even more so if you consider strength a factor in assessing athleticism, but when covering ground, he was much more of a lumbering figure due to his bulk.

Russell, on the other hand, was a "track star" type of athlete throughout his career. Of course his body changed over time and he filled out and got stronger, but he didn't bulk up hugely, and he maintained excellent speed and quickness in space in his later career.

The 1969 finals videos show Wilt in later career mode -- bigger, stronger, dominant within his space but not able to cover ground like his early days. They also show Russell able to run the floor and with amazing endurance, even in these final games of his career and after dealing with the accumulation of wear and tear.

When assessing Wilt's speed and quickness, you have to establish what parameters you're using. If you've looking at peak speed covering ground, you don't use the 1969 finals for that. If you want to say that he didn't maintain his ability to cover ground throughout his career, then the 1969 finals can be evidence for that. If you want to say that he had explosion throughout his career, perhaps built on quickness plus leaping ability early and strength plus less but still significant quickness and leaping ability later, then the 1969 finals can be used as part of that story.

But the point is that Wilt's athleticism from a career perspective isn't something you can assess based a single point in his career. Russell's athleticism was unusually constant throughout his career, while Wilt's was unusually dynamic.

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You have a strange bias against Wilt and you're trying to make him look as bad as possible (which doesn't work in this case, Wilt looks fantastic in this game). Is it because you are Shaq fan? Why can't you just appreciate both guys?

I don't have any bias against Wilt.

Look at the footage I posted and look at the footage you post.

Yours is clearly sped up, I don't know if you're the same as that other poster/youtube Wilt fan account who consistently posts sped up footage but it is definitely a trend.

So I'm not the one trying to color the perception of Wilt, it's the people posting sped up footage.

[Djoker]

I don't think there are video evidences to believe that Wilt got called for a travel a lot. There are two instances of that in game 4 of 1964 finals, but other than that I haven't seen anything that would suggest he got called for a travel more than other bigs.

Also - what do you mean by "very sloppy"? I've seen him doing quick moves, I've seen him countering defender's footwork, I've seen him using long strides to beat defender. He didn't have light feet like Hakeem, but he was huge and he knew how to use footwork to make separation.

IIRC he had 6 turnovers in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals. I can't recall from other game but he seems turnover-prone to me.

So you say that Wilt wasn't lethal in isolations? I don't think there is any reason to believe that.

I haven't seem him attack effectively on footage. Not face up, not post up, not hitting midrange J. He doesn't really have a good iso game. His off-ball game as we established is amazing.

Terrorized is a strong word, but I agree that Kareem gave him problems on the glass. Again - Wilt was over 10 years older though and Kareem was incredible athlete himself.

Ok. Agreed.

Russell is the GOAT defensive player and he had a lot of good defenders around him. Wilt did better against such a stellar competition than most would.

Ok maybe. I'm not sure one way or the other.

I agree that Kareem peaked offensively in 1977, but I don't see any reasons to believe that he wouldn't struggle against Thurmond. Nate gave him fits because of his length and positioning, not because he was much heavier (he wasn't).

I'm positive about Shaq struggling against Thurmond as well. Nate made every matchup personal and he was the master of post game - it wasn't strictly about him being strong or tough. He was known for studying opponent's tendencies and working hard to take away his best weapons. I don't think Shaq would be too good for Thurmond if Kareem and Wilt weren't.

I don't think there's every been a singular defender in NBA history that Shaq would struggle with. Honestly my money would be on Wilt himself doing the best job stopping Shaq. He was strong to stop him from getting position and could also contest his mini-hooks and even dunks. Thurmond would get rag-dolled IMO.

Shaq didn't have better go-to move. His one handed turnaround wasn't efficient and Wilt's finger roll gave him better chance for offensive rebound.

Shaq's go-to move was the black tornado... spin move into a dunk. Most importantly than his lower center of gravity or footwork, Shaq had the willingness to be a power player whereas Wilt didn't.

Alright then, but most of his shots were bankers. Duncan also had flat shot but he wasn't inefficient with it.

Duncan had better footwork and didn't fade with it. He shot it with his feet set facing the rim.

[freethedevil]

He had a few nice series against Russell but generally speaking Russell gave him a big haircut compared to other centers.
Russell is the GOAT defensive player and he had a lot of good defenders around him. Wilt did better against such a stellar competition than most would.

Huh?

In Wilt’s 1962 50-point season, he faced Russell 17 times and the rest of the league 75 times (he played Boston twice without Russell). Chamberlain averaged 50.9 points and 53.6 percent true shooting against the league, but 37.2 points on 50.1 percent true shooting against Russell (with 4.3 fewer free throw attempts per game). Russell shaved 14 points per game off Wilt’s average and his drop in efficiency — from 1.07 points per attempt to 1 point per attempt — is the full-game equivalent of a GOAT-level offense regressing to average.

Most regular plays? Sure. Most atg's? that's really just random speculation.

[70sFan]

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You have a strange bias against Wilt and you're trying to make him look as bad as possible (which doesn't work in this case, Wilt looks fantastic in this game). Is it because you are Shaq fan? Why can't you just appreciate both guys?

I don't have any bias against Wilt.

Look at the footage I posted and look at the footage you post.

Yours is clearly sped up, I don't know if you're the same as that other poster/youtube Wilt fan account who consistently posts sped up footage but it is definitely a trend.

So I'm not the one trying to color the perception of Wilt, it's the people posting sped up footage.

For the last time - I don't speed up footage. Why would I? Speeding up video doesn't make player look more impressive.

You showed footage from different game which has nothing to do with the spin I posted. Here is the source of my clip:

Watch on YouTube

If you think that the whole documentary was sped up, prove it and change it to normalized speed. So far you only assume that I do things I don't.

[70sFan]

IIRC he had 6 turnovers in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals. I can't recall from other game but he seems turnover-prone to me.

Thanks to trex, we have full boxscore stats for most Wilt games available:

Game 4 of 1964 Finals (only second half): 3 turnovers
Game 4 of 1967 ECF (only second half): 1 turnover
Game 6 of 1969 Finals (only 4th quarter): 0 turnovers
Game 5 of 1970 Finlas (50% of the game): 0 turnovers
Game 7 of 1970 Finals: 5 turnovers

He didn't make 1971-73 games yet, but Wilt was far from his prime at that point anyway. This doesn't paint a clear picture, certainly it doesn't prove that he was turnover prone. Besides, most of these turnovers were not related to his "sloppy" footwork.

I haven't seem him attack effectively on footage. Not face up, not post up, not hitting midrange J. He doesn't really have a good iso game. His off-ball game as we established is amazing.

I mean, he's among the best post players ever. You can argue that his post game wasn't on Kareem's or Shaq's level, but it's definitely better than "good". By the way, with more footage available we can see him shooting midrange jumpers.

I don't think there's every been a singular defender in NBA history that Shaq would struggle with. Honestly my money would be on Wilt himself doing the best job stopping Shaq. He was strong to stop him from getting position and could also contest his mini-hooks and even dunks. Thurmond would get rag-dolled IMO.

Thurmond was bigger than Duncan and Hakeem - neither of them was ragdolled. It's true that Shaq was incredibly tough to defend, but let's not exaggarate. Thurmond wasn't small enough to guard Shaq.

By the way, early 1980d Artis Gilmore was also strong enough to stop Shaq from getting deep position.

Shaq's go-to move was the black tornado... spin move into a dunk. Most importantly than his lower center of gravity or footwork, Shaq had the willingness to be a power player whereas Wilt didn't.

Shaq's spin was his counter move, it wasn't a move he used against defenders not trying to overplay him. Wilt also used spin move plenty of times, but it wasn't his go-move either.

Duncan had better footwork and didn't fade with it. He shot it with his feet set facing the rim.

Duncan used fadeaway bankshots plenty of times. He's my favorite player ever, I know what I'm talking about.

[Jaivl]

I don't think there's every been a singular defender in NBA history that Shaq would struggle with. Honestly my money would be on Wilt himself doing the best job stopping Shaq. He was strong to stop him from getting position and could also contest his mini-hooks and even dunks. Thurmond would get rag-dolled IMO.

Thurmond was bigger than Duncan and Hakeem - neither of them was ragdolled. It's true that Shaq was incredibly tough to defend, but let's not exaggarate. Thurmond wasn't small enough to guard Shaq.

By the way, early 1980d Artis Gilmore was also strong enough to stop Shaq from getting deep position.

And we did see Sabonis slow him, and Eaton would most definitely do so as well. No player is bulletproof.

[frica]

You have a strange bias against Wilt and you're trying to make him look as bad as possible (which doesn't work in this case, Wilt looks fantastic in this game). Is it because you are Shaq fan? Why can't you just appreciate both guys?

I don't have any bias against Wilt.

Look at the footage I posted and look at the footage you post.

Yours is clearly sped up, I don't know if you're the same as that other poster/youtube Wilt fan account who consistently posts sped up footage but it is definitely a trend.

So I'm not the one trying to color the perception of Wilt, it's the people posting sped up footage.

For the last time - I don't speed up footage. Why would I? Speeding up video doesn't make player look more impressive.

You showed footage from different game which has nothing to do with the spin I posted. Here is the source of my clip:

Watch on YouTube

If you think that the whole documentary was sped up, prove it and change it to normalized speed. So far you only assume that I do things I don't.

It's a shame we don't have the shotclock is sight 100% of the time.

Anyway, it's something I've noticed with old boxing footage in the past.
Old film was shot in 24 fps (or if you go back further even lower) so when converting it to digital and playing it at 30 fps you can get a speedup.

With boxing it's easier to notice because a 3 minute round shouldn't be over in 2:40. With old basketball footage the shotclock is out of sight and there are no other easy references to measure a possible speedup.

[70sFan]

I don't have any bias against Wilt.

Look at the footage I posted and look at the footage you post.

Yours is clearly sped up, I don't know if you're the same as that other poster/youtube Wilt fan account who consistently posts sped up footage but it is definitely a trend.

So I'm not the one trying to color the perception of Wilt, it's the people posting sped up footage.

For the last time - I don't speed up footage. Why would I? Speeding up video doesn't make player look more impressive.

You showed footage from different game which has nothing to do with the spin I posted. Here is the source of my clip:

Watch on YouTube

If you think that the whole documentary was sped up, prove it and change it to normalized speed. So far you only assume that I do things I don't.

It's a shame we don't have the shotclock is sight 100% of the time.

Anyway, it's something I've noticed with old boxing footage in the past.
Old film was shot in 24 fps (or if you go back further even lower) so when converting it to digital and playing it at 30 fps you can get a speedup.

With boxing it's easier to notice because a 3 minute round shouldn't be over in 2:40. With old basketball footage the shotclock is out of sight and there are no other easy references to measure a possible speedup.

You're right, a lot of these old footage are also slowed down for whatever reason. It's often not perfect, but in this case I don't see any reason to believe that the footage from Philly vs LAL game is sped up to significant degree. You can look at players and refs movement, they don't look unnatural.

Another thing is that a lot of modern highlight videos are also sped up to make it look cooler. I hate it in both ways and I never try to do that. Sometimes I try to speed up slow motion footage, but I do it rarely and it's usually still slower than real speed. Not in this case though, here I simply posted the raw clip from original source.

[Goudelock]

You're right, a lot of these old footage are also slowed down for whatever reason. It's often not perfect, but in this case I don't see any reason to believe that the footage from Philly vs LAL game is sped up to significant degree. You can look at players and refs movement, they don't look unnatural.

Another thing is that a lot of modern highlight videos are also sped up to make it look cooler. I hate it in both ways and I never try to do that. Sometimes I try to speed up slow motion footage, but I do it rarely and it's usually still slower than real speed. Not in this case though, here I simply posted the raw clip from original source.

As someone who works with a lot of old NFL Films stuff and tries to adjust speed when I can, I can tell when stuff is dramatically sped up or slowed down. That Wilt Chamberlain clip you posted did not look like it was altered, since the other players in the clip weren't moving in a jerky or sudden fashion like sped-up clips usually do.

And I remember reading something about how filming slowed-down footage meant that companies didn't have to shoot as much of it. That might just be hearsay though, since NFL Films were notorious for that, and they had like five cameras at every game shooting the whole time.

[KTM_2813]

Can't wait for the Kobe video! I'm a Patreon subscriber but not in the top tier, so hopefully it unlocks for me soon. I think that the mainstream conversation around Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron is usually pretty dumb, so it's always great to see true analysis of their games.

[LukaTheGOAT]

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[LukaTheGOAT]

Can't wait for the Kobe video! I'm a Patreon subscriber but not in the top tier, so hopefully it unlocks for me soon. I think that the mainstream conversation around Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron is usually pretty dumb, so it's always great to see true analysis of their games.

(Seconds Later) Your wish, is Ben's command.

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[Peregrine01]

Great vid. I think the biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan was motor. Ben has great film on how Kobe can be worn down by his movement on offense leading to him being less engaged on defense. Prime Jordan gambled more on defense but he looked like he could just play all out for days on end even while moving non-stop on offense.

[70sFan]

I like the description of Kobe's defense. He's still capable of being above average on that end, but his motor wasn't great anymore and he had important shortcomings even at his defensive peak (which was at the beginning of 2000s).

I also like Ben's choices of Kobe's shooting selection - some of these shots were incredibly difficult. The part about playmaking is also fantastic - Kobe was very gifted, but inconsistent passer and Ben showed it really nicely.

Overall it's an excellent video, one of his best in fact.

[freethedevil]

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Kobe would probably be a singificantly better playoff scorer and playoff deender than bird if they played in the current nba. Passing gap also goes down a fair bit.

[sansterre]

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Kobe would probably be a singificantly better playoff scorer and playoff deender than bird if they played in the current nba. Passing gap also goes down a fair bit.

Hard to know, as Bird would likely see his offensive efficiency jump when he started turning those long twos into threes.

[Kukoc-Lauri]

Great vid. I think the biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan was motor. Ben has great film on how Kobe can be worn down by his movement on offense leading to him being less engaged on defense. Prime Jordan gambled more on defense but he looked like he could just play all out for days on end even while moving non-stop on offense.

Michael Jordan was my favourite player in 90 because while he was one of the most talented guys if argubly not most talented, he played every single game like g leaguer fighting for contract in order to have money to buy food.

[LakerLegend]

Take away pippen from helping with perimeter duties on both ends and Jordan and his motor will be lower too..

[freethedevil]

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Kobe would probably be a singificantly better playoff scorer and playoff deender than bird if they played in the current nba. Passing gap also goes down a fair bit.

Hard to know, as Bird would likely see his offensive efficiency jump when he started turning those long twos into threes.

given kobe is amuch better three point shooter? Doubt.