The Stephen Curry Thread (2015-16 Pt. 2)

[JLei]

In other words, it might be possible that Curry kind of thought that this series is a wrap and started to focus on how to enhance his performance to get the finals MVP award. That is, he thinks it would be so embarrassing if he does not get the finals MVP award again two years in a row and thus he is playing a game within a game. And thus, when he struggles early in the game, this kind of mental pressure compounds on itself.

For those of you who counter by saying that Curry only thinks about helping his team winning a championship, I think that is a naive take on what human beings value and where their self-interest align.

Of course. He's got a huge ego as someone who's damn good should.

It's also bad for business (UnderArmor) if once again for the 2nd straight Finals Lebron (Nike) looks way better than him. And that may not be what the "nerd" fan thinks about last years Finals. But it's clear the casual fan thinks Lebron was way better than Curry last year and even the smarter media members in JVG, Lowe, Hubie etc. did not vote for him for Finals MVP. And let's be real the vote for Iggy was a defacto I can't vote for Lebron but it's a vote for Lebron.

All the casual bar fans I sit with are laughing at anyone who would say Curry is better than Lebron right now/ any time these last 2 years (And to be clear this is not my opinion). That's bad for business.

Cavs would probably prefer he not shoot even if he's taking awful shots. But I wonder if next game he tries to put up 25-30 shots and win the game on his own. Pressure is building for business and his legacy. The title is what matters but there's definitely more on the line for Curry than the "team first/ only championship matters" people will want to admit here.

[tsherkin]

Just snipping this b/c it seems we're pretty much agreeing elsewhere, but I would. Given the numbers posted, Curry really wasn't running the offense better when on court vs. off by much if at all. Russ on the other hand was single handedly running OKCs a large chunk of the series.

Into the ground, yes. What I'm saying is that I think the positive value of his playmaking was offset by his brutal scoring and untimely turnovers to an extent that blunts his overall offensive value in a series where the Thunder were quite a bit worse than usual on offense and lamed out as the series went out. His value on offense took a nosedive as the series dragged on.

You pull his amazing game 6 and we're all blaming Curry for GSW's loss instead of debating who was even better.

Sure, but it's precisely the point that he started lighting it up from game 5 onwards and had three straight big-time games for them. You pull Game 3 for Westbrook and he's a giant pile of scattered bricks and turnovers, right? If you want to nitpick on individual games, the end result was that when Curry performed well was better for the Warriors than when Westy performed for the Warriors.

[mtron929]

In short, I feel like whatever advantages Westbrook holds over Curry for the series as far as numbers go really stems from 2 games in which the Thunder blew them off the court and Westbrook really inflated his stats. It's hard to be as impressed with that as Curry showing up more consistently, in games that were actually in doubt and absolutely NEEDED his performance.

As for Klay going off in game 6...it doesn't take away from Curry's game. He had 31/10/9, strong efficiency, and he was consistently making an impact himself. They're not winning that game without Curry either.

Interesting take and I might have to agree in general. That is, I think I agree with you that not all minutes are equal. That is, when the game is a blow out late in the 4th quarter, how you play during that time should have much smaller weight as opposed to how you played earlier on when the game was closer when evaluating the said player's overall performance in the playoffs.

One unfortunate by-product is if we abide by these standards, it becomes awfully difficult to compare playoff performances since the statistics can be so misleading. For example, I think as bad as Curry's stats in the Finals are at the moment, his play is actually even worse than what the stats indicate.

[tsherkin]

In short, I feel like whatever advantages Westbrook holds over Curry for the series as far as numbers go really stems from 2 games in which the Thunder blew them off the court and Westbrook really inflated his stats. It's hard to be as impressed with that as Curry showing up more consistently, in games that were actually in doubt and absolutely NEEDED his performance.

As for Klay going off in game 6...it doesn't take away from Curry's game. He had 31/10/9, strong efficiency, and he was consistently making an impact himself. They're not winning that game without Curry either.

Yes, this is a wonderful precis of my own opinion.

EDIT: That sounds pompous. I mean, I agree, and it's a way more concise version!

[therealbig3]

In short, I feel like whatever advantages Westbrook holds over Curry for the series as far as numbers go really stems from 2 games in which the Thunder blew them off the court and Westbrook really inflated his stats. It's hard to be as impressed with that as Curry showing up more consistently, in games that were actually in doubt and absolutely NEEDED his performance.

As for Klay going off in game 6...it doesn't take away from Curry's game. He had 31/10/9, strong efficiency, and he was consistently making an impact himself. They're not winning that game without Curry either.

Interesting take and I might have to agree in general. That is, I think I agree with you that not all minutes are equal. That is, when the game is a blow out late in the 4th quarter, how you play during that time should have much smaller weight as opposed to how you played earlier on when the game was closer when evaluating the said player's overall performance in the playoffs.

One unfortunate by-product is if we abide by these standards, it becomes awfully difficult to compare playoff performances since the statistics can be so misleading. For example, I think as bad as Curry's stats in the Finals are at the moment, his play is actually even worse than what the stats indicate.

More and more, I'm trying to look at playoff series on a game by game basis, not as a whole, because the sample size is so small, that the point can really be missed when you do that.

In these Finals, it's obvious that Curry was pretty bad in 2 games, and invisible in another. It's been a bad series for him.

[mtron929]

In other words, it might be possible that Curry kind of thought that this series is a wrap and started to focus on how to enhance his performance to get the finals MVP award. That is, he thinks it would be so embarrassing if he does not get the finals MVP award again two years in a row and thus he is playing a game within a game. And thus, when he struggles early in the game, this kind of mental pressure compounds on itself.

For those of you who counter by saying that Curry only thinks about helping his team winning a championship, I think that is a naive take on what human beings value and where their self-interest align.

Of course. He's got a huge ego as someone who's damn good should.

It's also bad for business (UnderArmor) if once again for the 2nd straight Finals Lebron (Nike) looks way better than him. And that may not be what the "nerd" fan thinks about last years Finals. But it's clear the casual fan thinks Lebron was way better than Curry last year and even the smarter media members in JVG, Lowe, Hubie etc. did not vote for him for Finals MVP. And let's be real the vote for Iggy was a defacto I can't vote for Lebron but it's a vote for Lebron.

All the casual bar fans I sit with are laughing at anyone who would say Curry is better than Lebron right now/ any time these last 2 years (And to be clear this is not my opinion). That's bad for business.

Cavs would probably prefer he not shoot even if he's taking awful shots. But I wonder if next game he tries to put up 25-30 shots and win the game on his own. Pressure is building for business and his legacy. The title is what matters but there's definitely more on the line for Curry than the "team first/ only championship matters" people will want to admit here.

I still think that fans have somewhat of a naive take on some of these players operate. To be honest, I would not be surprised if for a lot of these superstars, their own personal glory matters more than the team winning the title. That is, I would not be surprised if Kevin Love wants the Cavs to lose when he's not playing. And many fans would see this as inconceivable but human minds operate in a nasty way that we are all secretly embarrassed about. Many competitive people want others around them to fail so that they can stand out.

[juice4080]

All the casual bar fans I sit with are laughing at anyone who would say Curry is better than Lebron right now/ any time these last 2 years (And to be clear this is not my opinion).

if lebron is the best player in the nba right now (and im not saying he's not) then it says a lot about the state of the league and the quality of the top level talents when it's best player is a perimeter player who can't shoot at all and is being given a huge cushion whenever he's being guarded...this league is in bad shape

[JLei]

In other words, it might be possible that Curry kind of thought that this series is a wrap and started to focus on how to enhance his performance to get the finals MVP award. That is, he thinks it would be so embarrassing if he does not get the finals MVP award again two years in a row and thus he is playing a game within a game. And thus, when he struggles early in the game, this kind of mental pressure compounds on itself.

For those of you who counter by saying that Curry only thinks about helping his team winning a championship, I think that is a naive take on what human beings value and where their self-interest align.

Of course. He's got a huge ego as someone who's damn good should.

It's also bad for business (UnderArmor) if once again for the 2nd straight Finals Lebron (Nike) looks way better than him. And that may not be what the "nerd" fan thinks about last years Finals. But it's clear the casual fan thinks Lebron was way better than Curry last year and even the smarter media members in JVG, Lowe, Hubie etc. did not vote for him for Finals MVP. And let's be real the vote for Iggy was a defacto I can't vote for Lebron but it's a vote for Lebron.

All the casual bar fans I sit with are laughing at anyone who would say Curry is better than Lebron right now/ any time these last 2 years (And to be clear this is not my opinion). That's bad for business.

Cavs would probably prefer he not shoot even if he's taking awful shots. But I wonder if next game he tries to put up 25-30 shots and win the game on his own. Pressure is building for business and his legacy. The title is what matters but there's definitely more on the line for Curry than the "team first/ only championship matters" people will want to admit here.

I still think that fans have somewhat of a naive take on some of these players operate. To be honest, I would not be surprised if for a lot of these superstars, their own personal glory matters more than the team winning the title. That is, I would not be surprised if Kevin Love wants the Cavs to lose when he's not playing. And many fans would see this as inconceivable but human minds operate in a nasty way that we are all secretly embarrassed about. Many competitive people want others around them to fail so that they can stand out.

Kevin Love probably not as much.

That letter he wrote in the Players Tribune seemed real. He resigned for the full 5 years knowing that he would be the punching bag and could have easily left last year with his reputation intact and just put the down season on Lebron with all suitors lining up to sign him. Seems like he geniunely wants to win a title no matter what.

But you are absolutely right that these players are selfish. You have to be wired like that to get to be the best.

Even someone as team oriented and clearly a champion like Pippen had that infamous incident.

[mtron929]

Of course. He's got a huge ego as someone who's damn good should.

It's also bad for business (UnderArmor) if once again for the 2nd straight Finals Lebron (Nike) looks way better than him. And that may not be what the "nerd" fan thinks about last years Finals. But it's clear the casual fan thinks Lebron was way better than Curry last year and even the smarter media members in JVG, Lowe, Hubie etc. did not vote for him for Finals MVP. And let's be real the vote for Iggy was a defacto I can't vote for Lebron but it's a vote for Lebron.

All the casual bar fans I sit with are laughing at anyone who would say Curry is better than Lebron right now/ any time these last 2 years (And to be clear this is not my opinion). That's bad for business.

Cavs would probably prefer he not shoot even if he's taking awful shots. But I wonder if next game he tries to put up 25-30 shots and win the game on his own. Pressure is building for business and his legacy. The title is what matters but there's definitely more on the line for Curry than the "team first/ only championship matters" people will want to admit here.

I still think that fans have somewhat of a naive take on some of these players operate. To be honest, I would not be surprised if for a lot of these superstars, their own personal glory matters more than the team winning the title. That is, I would not be surprised if Kevin Love wants the Cavs to lose when he's not playing. And many fans would see this as inconceivable but human minds operate in a nasty way that we are all secretly embarrassed about. Many competitive people want others around them to fail so that they can stand out.

Kevin Love probably not as much.

That letter he wrote in the Players Tribune seemed real. He resigned for the full 5 years knowing that he would be the punching bag and could have easily left last year with his reputation intact and just put the down season on Lebron with all suitors lining up to sign him. Seems like he geniunely wants to win a title no matter what.

But you are absolutely right that these players are selfish. You have to be wired like that to get to be the best.

Even someone as team oriented and clearly a champion like Pippen had that infamous incident.

Maybe, but I am pretty much realistic when it comes to the selfish motives that people have and how embarrassed they are by their selfishness. That is, if Curry is obsessed with winning the finals MVP to such a degree that he cannot think about anything else, I can understand it.

[bondom34]

In short, I feel like whatever advantages Westbrook holds over Curry for the series as far as numbers go really stems from 2 games in which the Thunder blew them off the court and Westbrook really inflated his stats. It's hard to be as impressed with that as Curry showing up more consistently, in games that were actually in doubt and absolutely NEEDED his performance.

As for Klay going off in game 6...it doesn't take away from Curry's game. He had 31/10/9, strong efficiency, and he was consistently making an impact himself. They're not winning that game without Curry either.

And I'd sy the inverse for Curry, whatever adv he had late in the series were negated by Russ early on. Russ was strong early, Curry late.

[Real30]

Curry is forcing himself too much on buying that STRENGTHINNUMBERS things. He is taking a backseat to his teammate to a point that he is only taking 3FGA/g in first quarters in this series. That slogan forces him to have a responsibility to make his teammates gets going by taking a backseat. That's why they are playing so great without him on court because nobody is taking a backseat to anybody, everybody is aggresive. He just can't make his teammates going by not letting them take some shots. In that way, Curry's strength which is making shots is taken away just to give way for that STRENGTHINNUMBERS thing. They are just expecting Curry to explode in any time, but it's not happening if he is not taking shots.

And that FMVP thing fukced him up so badly. He's been saying all season long that everytime he steps on the floor, he believes that he is the best on the floor. So, for him to be the best player on the floor, it must start with self belief. And now all of a sudden, self doubt is clouding him. He is saying now that he doesn't care who wins the FMVP as long as it is his teammate. And as we know, FMVP is usually the best performing player on the winning team. It goes to show that he doesn't care anymore who the best on this Warrior team as long as they are winning. He can't be his best when he doesn't believe that he is the best. And now he has a lot of doubt. I believe not winning FMVP last season is one of those that fuels him this season, and now all of a sudden, it is slowly getting out of hand. His confidence is down evidenced by that 13FGA/g in this series so far. There is still time to recover. It's interesting how things will unfold in the coming days.

[Cuban_Linx]

On/off in a sample size that small pretty much doesn't mean anything.

Curry outplayed him for most of that series. I'm not even trying to slight Westbrook here, he's a great player, but not only was he outplayed offensively, he was outplayed defensively as well.

See I'd just disagree. The difference offensively was Klay was there for Curry, Westbrook didn't have Durant playing well at all. It came down to the "others" and OKC's didn't perform late series.

I don't know if its cut and dry either way but I'd lean Westbrook, some others seem to agree, some lean Curry.

That said, not really relevant to the here and now, and I'm not sure what was wrong yesterday. Didn't seem hurt, just not aggressive and turning it over kind of carelessly.

I'm sorry to harp on this, and however you reply, I'll read it and then leave it at that.

Westbrook had two HUGE games in games 3 and 4, both in terms of +/- and in terms of the box score. Both of those were blowout wins for the Thunder, and Westbrook definitely added on towards the end when the games were no longer in doubt. I mean, Curry was getting called out in this thread for statpadding (and I agree, he did statpad last night)...those games are an example of the same thing. And in a small sample size like a playoff series, 1 or 2 big games can really skew the overall numbers to look like something happened which really didn't over the course of the series.

We often hear the addage that a win's a win...whether it's by 30 or by 2. And in games 3 and 4, were Westbrook's "extra" numbers really contributing to a win, or just the point differential? Consistency in a playoff series is far more important, so the fact that in terms of how many times each PG outplayed the other, Curry doing it 4/7 times is what really matters. And that also speaks to what someone else brought up when they said that Curry only outplayed him a couple of times at most. That's just not the case.

I disagree with this notion that Westbrook was statpadding and I honestly don't even see how anyone that watched the series or knows about the Warriors ability to evaporate huge deficits could think that.

The Thunder played a strong half in game 3 and took a 25 pt lead into the half. Still, nobody watching the game was willing to count out the Warriors at that point and rightly so because they were the same guys that just scored 17 points in a matter of 2 minutes in a game that looked to be tight just the game before. Matter of fact, they start out looking to repeat that with Klay and Steph making their first 3 or 4 shots and Kerr going to the death lineup early. Of course Westbrook stays agressive while that's happening and it works. Dubs score 33 points in the 3rd, but the Thunder counter with 45 and put the game to sleep. Warriors finally give up, send Steph to the bench late in the 3rd and Russ follows a minute later. Both sit the entire 4th. Steph 30 minutes, Russ 31. Russ scores another 2 points in the minute he played while the Warriors give up. Hardly statpadding.

Game 4 he played 40 minutes, but again, he just stayed until the Warriors give up. No lead is safe against these guys and in this game they prove it. 19 pt lead for OKC at the half and Klay explodes for 19 in 5 minutes. He takes a 3 minute rest while his team keeps the game manageable and then comes back to drill another 3 to cut the lead to 9 early in the 4th while Westbrook sat. KD responds, Donovan brings Russ back and OKC finally puts the game away. Kerr gives up late in the 4th by subbing out his starters and, again, a minute later, Russ goes out too. Again he ends up with 1 minute more than Steph Curry. This time he gets a DREB in that minute after the dubs gave up.

This whole statpadding thing is just false narrative if you watched those games. As long as Steph Curry is in the game the Warriors are playing to win and you have to stay aggressive to avoid a comeback. Matter of fact, that whole aspect is exactly what the difference was between OKC winning game 4 and losing game 6. In game 4 OKC has a 9pt lead in the 4th but Russ stays agressive and they close out the dubs. In game 6 they have a 8pt lead in the 4th, they go into their prevent offense consisting of KD taking over for ISOs and they lose the game. If Russ just sticks with that supposed statpadding they win that game and this is not even a discussion.

[tsherkin]

This whole statpadding thing is just false narrative if you watched those games. As long as Steph Curry is in the game the Warriors are playing to win and you have to stay aggressive to avoid a comeback. Matter of fact, that whole aspect is exactly what the difference was between OKC winning game 4 and losing game 6. In game 4 OKC has a 9pt lead in the 4th but Russ stays agressive and they close out the dubs. In game 6 they have a 8pt lead in the 4th, they go into their prevent offense consisting of KD taking over for ISOs and they lose the game. If Russ just sticks with that supposed statpadding they win that game and this is not even a discussion.

I don't think Westbrook was statpadding. Dude was their primary point of attack playmaker, played 39 mpg, attacked hard in transition and out of the PnR, and was shooting a lot. He was shooting poorly, but like with Durant, who else was going to do it? I don't think he performed very well, but I'd hardly call what he did "stat-padding," like he was just going out there to get numbers. He was trying to win, and trying hard. He was screwing up progressively more after Game 4, but that doesn't mean he was out there trying to post specific stats or whatever. Dude was balling, but he's not a particularly good scorer, was overtasked in that regard, and I think he wore down from all of that aggressive driving all game long over the length of the series.

[magicman1978]

Up until this series, I thought Curry still had an argument for GOAT offensive season. After the first three games in this series, I don't think he's got an argument anymore. He's looked frustrated from the increase physicality and just doesn't seem very energetic out there. I think he'll recover and put up a couple of big games, but he's out of the GOAT offensive season argument for me even if he does. Too many missed games and then too many subpar games.

[Nbafanatic]

I think Curry just looks gassed. Maybe the chase for 73, rehabs from injuries and another deep playoff run is taking some toll on him.

[therealbig3]

By statpadding, I mean the fact that Westbrook's 2 best games of the series came in blowout wins. It's not necessarily with a negative connotation, nor am I saying that Westbrook was just trying to put up stats, but recognizing that his production was kind of pouring it on when the game had already slipped away from the Warriors. These 2 games definitely inflate his production for the overall series, and by simply looking at +/-, on/off, box score, whatever for the overall series and concluding that Westbrook actually played better is misleading imo.

The person who even challenged me on the notion of Curry outplaying Westbrook asked me how could Curry play better if Westbrook played better in more games? And that's not the case. Curry won the H2H matchup in 4/7 games, and that's not even debatable as far as I'm concerned. Curry was absolutely the better player in games 2, 5, 6, and 7. More often than not, Curry was the best PG on the court.

Westbrook statistically outplayed him by more in games 3 and 4 than Curry did in those other games, but how does that matter exactly? It's not by how much you outplay your opponent in a specific game that matters, it's how many times you're able to do so over the course of the series. And Curry definitely got the edge in that regard.

And the statistical difference isn't even that large for the series, and you can make a strong case that Curry's numbers are better anyway.

[Doctor MJ]

Up until this series, I thought Curry still had an argument for GOAT offensive season. After the first three games in this series, I don't think he's got an argument anymore. He's looked frustrated from the increase physicality and just doesn't seem very energetic out there. I think he'll recover and put up a couple of big games, but he's out of the GOAT offensive season argument for me even if he does. Too many missed games and then too many subpar games.

I don't really want to argue about GOAT, but what I will say is that Curry basically went on a classic Curry-style run in the 3rd quarter of that game. To me it was something of a trial run, and really the first time Curry felt the need to go into hero mode in the series - but with Cleveland continuing to make shots, it was clear the game too much of a long shot to go all in the rest of the game on.

I expect Curry to go after this harder in Game 4 if the Warriors don't jump out to a lead. Will it succeed? I don't know. What I will say though is that I'm not remotely convinced that the Cavs have found a way to truly silence Curry when neither the Thunder or anyone else could.

Best guess? Curry has at lest one game where he volume scores in classic Curry fashion before the series end, and with Warriors winning the title it will be enough that folks like me remain eye-rolly on cynics while others focus on Curry's erratic scoring totals as proof he's "not really the best". If Curry fails to win Finals MVP while the Warriors win again, which is likely at this point, naysayers will gleefully use it against him all the while bashing LeBron while praying to an alter of Michael Jordan.

[therealbig3]

Put another way, the Curry-Westbrook matchup was like a microcosm of the Warriors-Thunder series. The Thunder technically outscored the Warriors for the series...but the Warriors won more often than not. They just didn't outplay the Thunder by as much in their wins as the Thunder did in theirs.

What was more important at the end of the day? Which team was better at the end of the day?

[Doctor MJ]

Put another way, the Curry-Westbrook matchup was like a microcosm of the Warriors-Thunder series. The Thunder technically outscored the Warriors for the series...but the Warriors won more often than not. They just didn't outplay the Thunder by as much in their wins as the Thunder did in theirs.

What was more important at the end of the day? Which team was better at the end of the day?

Right and of course, that's not a coincidence. The two teams are basically defined around their stars.

I say this like it's perhaps normal, but I actually think it's really interesting that I feel this way about Westbrook given that Durant was there first. While Golden State is defined by Curry because they chose to build around him, OKC is defined by Westbrook seemingly because his presence is so damn powerful that things couldn't be any other way.

[bondom34]

Put another way, the Curry-Westbrook matchup was like a microcosm of the Warriors-Thunder series. The Thunder technically outscored the Warriors for the series...but the Warriors won more often than not. They just didn't outplay the Thunder by as much in their wins as the Thunder did in theirs.

What was more important at the end of the day? Which team was better at the end of the day?

Right and of course, that's not a coincidence. The two teams are basically defined around their stars.

I say this like it's perhaps normal, but I actually think it's really interesting that I feel this way about Westbrook given that Durant was there first. While Golden State is defined by Curry because they chose to build around him, OKC is defined by Westbrook seemingly because his presence is so damn powerful that things couldn't be any other way.

I think (and sorry as this is not the player thread for it) its similar to how GSW responds to Green's energy in a way, as the team is clearly built to surround Durant as best possible but starting this year Westbrook seemed to be the real catalyst.