2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[parsnips33]

Jesus Steph has 43 in a must win Finals game and we're still talking about Jokic lol

[parsnips33]

I know Warriors lost game 1, but I can't help but feel Cs undisciplined defense on Steph in the first quarter of game 1 has let him get in a nice little rhythm

[Doctor MJ]

Curry with one of the best performances of his career, he was absolutely unbelievable.

Can we finally start criticizing Tatum for his play? He's been horrible in the finals so far for his standards. He had strong moments with his passing and he's still a good defender, but man his scoring decisions are bad...

Tatum killed the momentum of the Celtics in the 4th by channeling his inner Kobe:



I don't understand why he settles for these types of shots, while it's obvious he is much more effective as an off-ball shooter.. he's been crazy hot from the 3.

So, not that I disagree with the assessment that this isn't where Boston should want Tatum to be shooting from, but I'd note that his career percentages from the deep mid-range seem pretty close to Kobe's. His numbers from their this post-season are bad, and that certainly matters when we evaluate his performance, but in general, it's not really that he's awful in these spots.

[Outside]

The thing is, next season was supposed to be the Warriors best chance, not this season. This season, they were looking to integrate Klay toward the end of the RS and make some noise in the PS, but the idea was that it would take until next season to get Klay fully acclimated and back to whatever he's going to be post-injury. The fact that they've done this well despite not having a quality version of Klay is surprising.

[Homer38]

Tatum need to shot more 3 and shot less mid range shots especially if this is contested.Shot selection is a problem for him so far but he just need one monster game on the road and he is able to do this like game 6 vs Bucks

[Doctor MJ]

The thing is, next season was supposed to be the Warriors best chance, not this season. This season, they were looking to integrate Klay toward the end of the RS and make some noise in the PS, but the idea was that it would take until next season to get Klay fully acclimated and back to whatever he's going to be post-injury. The fact that they've done this well despite not having a quality version of Klay is surprising.

Well but: It was expected that if Klay were to make a great recovery, he probably wouldn't get there until '22-23...but the looming spectre of aging was always seen as something that might lead to decay that overwhelmed all other trends.

I'd say the question of aging remains, and always will remain. At the moment, I think what Curry is showing is he's likely to keep aging gracefully, and there's good reason to hope that the same will be true for Klay...but Draymond is a concern. None of this is actually what I'd call a surprised as I think it was commonly felt that the Splash Brother skillset would age well, but now we'll see how it all plays out.

Certainly though, the Warriors need to be seen as a serious contender going into next year, and this likely should continue to be so for as long as Curry still looks like Curry.

[Peregrine01]

Curry is showing again he's easily the best offensive player in the league, he's just ridiculous. He is so great that the Warriors offense is still elite with the current version of Draymond on the court despite Draymond being an atrocious offensive player who isn't guarded at all and can't score anything except uncontested layups.

Celtics scored 3 total points in the last 5 minutes, it felt like the moment got to them. Also, all of their shots in the last 4:30 minutes were threes. 2 Smart threes on a crucial offensive possession late is not something you want. Tatum needs to be better. And they continue to struggle offensively when Timelord is on the bench.

How is he showing that he's clearly better on offense than Jokic?

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

[ronnymac2]

What are Tatum's numbers at the rim and from 3-10? Because throughout these playoffs, aside from an occasional sweet gliding finish, I have perceived him to be pedestrian finishing at the rim and from 3-10 off the dribble. Pedestrian or downright poor.

Everybody will go gah-gah over Steph "Dancing and Prancing" Curry's game, and yes he was great, but if somebody said in 2019 that Andrew Wiggins would eventually grab 15 rebounds in a pivotal NBA Finals game, they would be laughed at. He was an underachiever in Minny, and given his athletic ability and hype and draft position, he was criticized harshly though perhaps justifiably for it. However...

He has made the most of his opportunity on playing with a great team and now contributes to that great team. He has taken pride in aspects of his game that he was mainly criticized for: defense and rebounding. He's on the second-best defense in the league and usually has the highest defensive usage against the opposition's best perimeter offensive players, including in the playoffs. Very impressive stuff, and Wiggins deserves props for improving and taken pride in his job.

[70sFan]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

You can say that for a lot of players though.

[Outside]

There were really Celtic fans who said Tatum is a more talented player than Curry.

I know fan bias is normal, but that was outrageous reading that from a few of them on the GB.

To be fair, Tatum is being asked to fill a role he's not well-suited to play. The finals are exposing weaknesses in both teams, and for the Celtics, a big one is that they lack players to initiate offense beyond isolation for Tatum and Brown. They reeeeeally need a point guard-type player. It doesn't even have to be an all-league type guy, someone like Jalen Brunson would do just great. Smart does well sometimes, but he's really not that guy in a finals environment. Brown can't do it, at all. White makes a kickout now and then, but nah. And that leaves the initiation duties to Tatum.

It's not his fault that he's not great at it. Not everyone is LeBron. Tatum needs an initiator playing with him to unleash his best self. Or keep plugging away at it for a few seasons until he becomes better at it, I guess.

People ragging on Tatum aren't taking into account what he's being asked to do and that he's getting almost no help with it, and how much better he would be if he had someone setting him up instead of being forced to get his own shots plus set up everyone else. The roster has a gaping hole. How much better would Tatum be if they had at least a backup point guard to give him a break part of the game and get him a few easy shots.

[Outside]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

You can say that for a lot of players though.

Ha, you can say that about every player.

As great as Curry has been in the finals, he hasn't really gone 2016 nuclear with double-digit threes and a "Curry flurry" of four or five straight in a few minutes of game time. In some ways, his game 4 performance was workmanlike more than spectacular. He just kept plugging away at it all game long.

[Outside]

Curry is showing again he's easily the best offensive player in the league, he's just ridiculous. He is so great that the Warriors offense is still elite with the current version of Draymond on the court despite Draymond being an atrocious offensive player who isn't guarded at all and can't score anything except uncontested layups.

Celtics scored 3 total points in the last 5 minutes, it felt like the moment got to them. Also, all of their shots in the last 4:30 minutes were threes. 2 Smart threes on a crucial offensive possession late is not something you want. Tatum needs to be better. And they continue to struggle offensively when Timelord is on the bench.

How is he showing that he's clearly better on offense than Jokic?

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

[Peregrine01]

How is he showing that he's clearly better on offense than Jokic?

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

Jokic has tremendous gravity in the post, where he’s probably the best paint scorer in the league. But he also has extremely valuable gravity on the perimeter with a Dirk-like ability to pull bigs away from the rim. His gravity was the biggest reason why Murray was able to go off in the bubble.

Obviously Curry’s gravity is unique but Jokic’s is as well in its ability to compromise defenses.

[Peregrine01]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

You can say that for a lot of players though.

What I meant to say is that Curry at his best is better than any other player at their best.

[Doctor MJ]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

Jokic has tremendous gravity in the post, where he’s probably the best paint scorer in the league. But he also has extremely valuable gravity on the perimeter with a Dirk-like ability to pull bigs away from the rim. His gravity was the biggest reason why Murray was able to go off in the bubble.

Obviously Curry’s gravity is unique but Jokic’s is as well in its ability to compromise defenses.

So I think what's being circled around here is that to the extent "gravity" is an appropriate metaphor based on measurable warping of defensive spacing based on where players stand in any particular moment, Curry's latent impact goes beyond gravity.

When a guy is running around, it takes a lot more out of you as a player to remain only X distance away from him, to say nothing of the triggering his arrival in another player's proximity does to his attention.

[itsxtray]

How is he showing that he's clearly better on offense than Jokic?

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

This is an extreme take that makes no sense and is why people ridicule the Steph gravity discussion because people go to such extremes. Every scorer good enough to have the defense tilt toward them has gravity, the question is how big is that tilt and how good is the player or team at exploiting that tilt. Obviously Steph does this in unique ways and even without the ball but gravity is far from unique to him, especially when talking about a player of Jokic's caliber.

[eminence]

Tatum is actually doing a pretty solid job as the initiator for the Celtics offense imo, just can't hit anything from the midrange and not getting to the rim enough. I don't think it's particularly a decision making problem.

[itsxtray]

Tatum is actually doing a pretty solid job as the initiator for the Celtics offense imo, just can't hit anything from the midrange and not getting to the rim enough. I don't think it's particularly a decision making problem.

I agree in general but he threw a ton of stupid/lazy passes last night that just boggle the mind. One play he was on the left wing and tried to skip it to the right corner but someone was standing right in the passing lane and he threw it low, it was like wtf were you even thinking bruh?

[Outside]

When Curry is on, there’s no better player in NBA history, forget just offense. But he’s not always on.

Jokic just has a consistent, almost inevitable impact on offense that Curry doesn’t, even in his best years. So at his absolute best, Curry has no peer. But taken overall, I think Jokic is in his own tier as the best offensive player in the league.

But that's not taking into account Curry's gravity, which is always there and is something that Jokic doesn't have.

This is an extreme take that makes no sense and is why people ridicule the Steph gravity discussion because people go to such extremes. Every scorer good enough to have the defense tilt toward them has gravity, the question is how big is that tilt and how good is the player or team at exploiting that tilt. Obviously Steph does this in unique ways and even without the ball but gravity is far from unique to him, especially when talking about a player of Jokic's caliber.

You're correct that I should have been clearer considering what I said implied Jokic doesn't have any gravity, which he does. But Curry's gravity does go far beyond what other scorers have, including Jokic.

Gravity in the post is impactful if it draws multiple defenders or excess defensive attention, thereby opening up perimeter opportunities or slashing lanes for teammates. This can be the case both if the player in question has the ball or doesn't have the ball. The typical example for this is Shaq, who, along with Wilt, warped the defense from the post more than anyone.

Jokic is very good at warping the defense in the post when he has the ball, but it's not to Shaq levels, and he doesn't approach anywhere near that level of gravity in the post without the ball.

Gravity on the perimeter is potentially more impactful in the post if it leads to higher quality shots than gravity in the post. When Curry has the ball and draws multiple defenders onto him, he often backs up near half court and then passes out of it to set up a 4-on-3, which leads to both layups and dunks plus wide open threes, which is better than the mostly perimeter shots that post gravity creates.

Then there is the multi-faceted aspect of Curry's gravity without the ball. In its simplest form, it's drawing multiple defenders to the perimeter and creating a 4-on-3 without even having to go through the step of Curry having the ball and passing out of the double-team. But as you advance through the playoffs, you're playing against better defenses, and this typically happens less often, though Memphis and Dallas did a fair amount of selling out totally to Curry and doubling him without the ball on some possessions.

But Curry in motion without the ball is where he truly separates himself from a player like Jokic. His movement disrupts the defense by forcing multiple players to track him as he moves, taking focus away from the player with the ball plus the others without the ball. Because Curry is so good at moving without the ball and opponents know how effective he is at relocating, defenses expend a significant amount of focus on many plays whether he gets the ball or not.

That is something Jokic doesn't have, especially on the perimeter. Defenses don't have to expend extra effort to track Jokic throughout a possession if he doesn't have the ball, and though he's a good perimeter shooter, he doesn't scare defenses from out there, and opponents actually consider it a win if they can get Jokic to take perimeter shots.

I'm not trying to run Jokic down here. This is just one aspect of their impact. I had Jokic as the clear POY and OPOY at the end of the RS, and I may still have him there in the end. I don't see anyone other than Curry that I could possible put over him, and that's only because I value the PS so much. I did that last season, putting Giannis first and Jokic second after the finals. But I am a huge Jokic fan. He's awesome.

[Homer38]

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