The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[Rasho_libre]

Cleveland Lebron was just more freakish as an athlete. I think current Lebron is miles a ahead of him in the mental department.

[GreenHat]

Remember people here saying like 2 days ago this would not be a good finals series for lebron no matter what?

Those people still don't think he has a good finals series and they never will.

[Rasho_libre]

Withis second title to me Lebron voice Kobe and Hakeem outta the top 10 when you factor everything in and the fact that he is nowhere near done adding to his legacy. Lets put it this way. In game 7 if bosh scores 0 points there is a 0 percent chance a kobe lead team will win.

[GreenHat]

Lebron just ethered a lot of haters souls tonight.

I love it.

J23 will be a lot quieter until the first Heat losing streak.

37 points on 52% shooting, but apparently all that matters is lebron started out 1-5 for the first 14 minutes

Didn't you notice he was invisible from 10:29 in the first quarter until 6:18 in the first quarter? What a disgrace!

[Mohanad]

Some of you are way too fixed on stats. It's becoming an overkill. How many minutes did he just play? How many times was he responsible for the offense? guarding Parker and Gino? Every tough defensive assignment in the playoffs? The intensity of these games? Where seconds turn into hours, minutes turn into days during crunch times. How physically taxing does this have to be on LBJ? Easily (yes...easily) best conditioned athlete in the game. Not one player in the NBA has played more basketball then he in the past 3 years (esp. at that level)

It is so crucial to be critical of some of these stats. Many questions need to be asked. How reasonable is it to draw so many conclusions being presented from the figures alone? Way too many dramatic stats that exaggerate so many statistical analyses

[PCProductions]

Well guys, this is a bittersweet day indeed. There's a couple of things I wanna say on this great day as a Lebron James fan:

1. How about Lebron James from December 2011 to June 2013? Two titles, two finals MVPs, two regular season MVPs, an olympic gold medal as the clear leader of it, two all-NBA first selections, two all-NBA defensive first selections, a 27-game win streak, a near record setting PER for 2013, numerous memorable playoff games (Game 6 @ Boston, Game 7 vs Spurs, etc) and just a tremendous turnaround overall when the world was just about ready to abandon him. Hell of a year and half for Lebron, and he's finally gonna get a good, long summer of rest for the 2014 season.

2. To all you guys who stuck with him through thick and thin during the regular season and otherwise, I commend you. Bob, toodles, colts, mutnt, jules etc (I ain't gonna name everyone lol) you guys have been a great bunch to talk to throughout the year and it's gonna be a boring summer without NBA. I look forward to a presumably rejuvenated Lebron for the 2014 as this will be the longest amount of rest since before the lockout.

3. As per Steve Kerr's remark about guaranteeing that the Heat won't go back to the finals next year... Do you believe it? Despite this postseason not being particularly dominant from the Heat, it still feels like there's no stopping these guys as none of them have shown signs of "age" (I still attribute Wade's issues to his knees). Can Lebron have his actual "peak" season at the tender age of 29? I mean, like I said about the rest, it's the most he'll have since before the league was in a lockout, and there won't be a weight issue like 2011 either.

[thebottomline]

He saved the best for last. Where do you guys rank this game among LeBron's playoff performances?

Game 7 of an epic Finals. 37/12/4. 70 TS%. Dominant from the 2nd quarter until the finish. Hit the biggest shot of the game. Big steal at the end. The 2 FTs to ice it. The defense on Manu and Parker. Capping off an incredible 2 year run where he's barely had any real rest.

It's gotta be top 5, right?

[SideshowBob]

Yeah its up there. That was also his best game of the season

[PCProductions]

I dunno where it ranks yet, I'd have to think about it. Currently, I have it at 2nd to Game 6 @ Boston as his best game as a Heat.

[MaliBrah]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XceMbPVAggk[/youtube]

My Favourite player of all time cemented with this interview , If you grew up with nothing you'll understand but this was just amazing

[GSP]

Im very excited for next season. We will see the best Lebron to date IMO. Thanks to Sideshowbob and all the other Lebron fans for a great season, very informative thread,

As it is I have 13 Lebron the same level as 91 Mj and 00 Shaq. All at 9.5 Srs.

Mj - 7 off and 2.5 def
Shaq - 6 off and 3.5 def
Lebron - 6.5 off and 3 def

[ardee]

He performed when his team needed him like few others.

I think my earlier confusion about 2009 vs 2013 is gone. Yeah, his scoring was less efficient, but he was contributing in every other area to an unfathomable degree.

I'm happy to put 2013 LeBron as the 3rd greatest peak of all time behind Wilt and Jordan and more or less tied with Shaq, though I might edge LeBron right now because today's epic performance is still fresh in my head.

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 1991 Jordan
3/4. 2013 LeBron/2000 Shaq
5. 1994 Hakeem

[nolunch]

Lucky ring for Lebron.

[SideshowBob]

:D

Sideshowbob whats your final Srs rating for Lebron this year or do u still need to think about it?

+7.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +10.0 Overall

Im very excited for next season. We will see the best Lebron to date IMO. Thanks to Sideshowbob and all the other Lebron fans for a great season, very informative thread,

As it is I have 13 Lebron the same level as 91 Mj and 00 Shaq. All at 9.5 Srs.

Mj - 7 off and 2.5 def
Shaq - 6 off and 3.5 def
Lebron - 6.5 off and 3 def

Cool, we're in the same ballpark. I'd go

Jordan 90-92 +7.0 Offense, +2.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall
Shaq 00-01 +6.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall

I don't think its unreasonable for 13 James to fall at that level or even slightly under, but I still have him with the edge.

[Dipper 13]

Cool, we're in the same ballpark. I'd go

Jordan 90-92 +7.0 Offense, +2.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall
Shaq 00-01 +6.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall

I don't think its unreasonable for 13 James to fall at that level or even slightly under, but I still have him with the edge.

Where does 1967 Wilt rank according to this? If we use Dean Oliver's estimates from his book, the Sixers offense improved by +10.6 from 1965 (before Wilt trade) to 1967, with Billy Cunningham as the only other major roster addition. How much of that credit goes to him?


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1255357#p36086920

[Vinsanity420]

:D

Sideshowbob whats your final Srs rating for Lebron this year or do u still need to think about it?

+7.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +10.0 Overall

Im very excited for next season. We will see the best Lebron to date IMO. Thanks to Sideshowbob and all the other Lebron fans for a great season, very informative thread,

As it is I have 13 Lebron the same level as 91 Mj and 00 Shaq. All at 9.5 Srs.

Mj - 7 off and 2.5 def
Shaq - 6 off and 3.5 def
Lebron - 6.5 off and 3 def

Cool, we're in the same ballpark. I'd go

Jordan 90-92 +7.0 Offense, +2.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall
Shaq 00-01 +6.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall

I don't think its unreasonable for 13 James to fall at that level or even slightly under, but I still have him with the edge.

Is there a method to calculating this stuff?

[SideshowBob]

Cool, we're in the same ballpark. I'd go

Jordan 90-92 +7.0 Offense, +2.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall
Shaq 00-01 +6.0 Offense, +3.0 Defense, +9.0 Overall

I don't think its unreasonable for 13 James to fall at that level or even slightly under, but I still have him with the edge.

Where does 1967 Wilt rank according to this? If we use Dean Oliver's estimates from his book, the Sixers offense improved by +10.6 from 1965 (before Wilt trade) to 1967, with Billy Cunningham as the only other major roster addition. How much of that credit goes to him?


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1255357#p36086920

Overall, I would have him right after those guys, and he's clearly more balanced two-ways than any of those three, who all lean offense.

I admit my research on Wilt (and that era) is still a work in progress, so don't take anything I say as my locked/definite opinion. A dramatic offensive shift out of the negative would first have to be scaled considering improving a negative is not quite up to improving a positive (though obviously this is a HUGE shift, so that's only something to apply as a formality). I think its clear that Wilt was the biggest driving force there, I'd credit him with ~6 points in that setting (which may have been slightly beneficial). If we put that on the SRS scale, and try to consider Wilt as he was rather than just Wilt in that one setting, I'd peg him as right around a +4-5 (offense only), and then roughly the same on the defensive end, about +8.0 overall.

[thebottomline]

I've still got '91 Jordan as my #1 peak, just too great of a postseason.

For #2 I have '13 LeBron and '00 Shaq really close atm. The only thing you can really fault LeBron for is an inconsistent jumper in the playoffs (which led to some loss of confidence and passivity at times). But isn't Shaq's poor FT shooting a bigger flaw? Despite his jumpshot woes, LeBron was still significantly more efficient than Shaq in the playoffs overall, granted his volume was lower. When you consider LeBron's creation and the fact that he played a tougher postseason defense on average I'm inclined to give him the edge offensively over Shaq.

Defensively I think what LeBron did this postseason probably surpassed Shaq's impact on that end as well. Man, the minute to minute responsibilities he had. Just amazing versatility.

LeBron also had a better regular season than Shaq though that matters less to me than their postseasons.

It's still really early but I guess I'm leaning LeBron over Shaq in the peak debate.

[SideshowBob]

Is there a method to calculating this stuff?

You can look at shifts in team SRS if a player misses games (provided you control for any necessary factors) and then scale accordingly.

But the idea behind it is pegging a theoretical value. How good do you think a player was? We can only extract and decipher the "results" in one team setting. What we want to know is how they would perform in EVERY setting, and there's no way to calculate that. I suppose it doesn't sound very ideal, but I think the value stems from trying to think about placing the player in a thousand different situations and evaluating how they and the team might perform.

[therealbig3]

Yeah, Shaq actually had some rough games in the 00 playoffs until he feasted on the Pacers front line in the Finals. He was putting up huge raw numbers, but his efficiency wasn't Shaq-like.

Against the Kings, 29/17 on 53.4% TS

Against the Suns, 30/16 on 55.8% TS

Against the Blazers, 23/13 on 55.0% TS

Against the Pacers, 38/17 on 57.6% TS

Of course, he was obviously dominant against everyone, but he didn't have one truly great series from an efficiency standpoint. His FT shooting was definitely a huge negative aspect to his game and limited his efficiency big time. Obviously, his shooting numbers aren't everything and a lot of his offensive impact comes from the fact that he drew so many fouls and drew so much defensive attention...but the same can be said for LeBron really, even when it comes to his inconsistent outside shooting. He's still drawing a ton of defensive attention, he's still creating a ton of looks for his teammates, and he's still having an overall huge offensive impact.

Overall, I'd say 13 LeBron and 00 Shaq are my number 2 and number 3 peaks in some order, with 91 Jordan still number 1.