'17-'18 POY discussion

[Unbiased hater]

1. Harden
2. Lillard
3. Durant
4. Butler
5. Oladipo

[Mystical Apples]

Jokic continues his push for top 5 inclusion.

Does he? I can’t think of many star players more disappointing this season

Tanking and injuries make it a weird exercise in ranking sub-optimal choices. Of the 6 or so eventual 50-win teams Curry has played 1600 minutes. Paul 1800 and Harden deserves those votes. Kyrie 1900 minutes and in reality I'd vote for Horford over Kyrie anyway. Embiid is at 1900 minutes. Gobert is at 1700 minutes.

Given the above I'd have Jokic in the 4-8 range. There just aren't many players with his combination overall workload, efficiency, and team impact. His workload in the half court in particular has been impressive. Rolling 60 games without Millsap or Harris isn't a small thing, either.

[Dr Spaceman]

Man, as much as I think Harden has been the best player in the game this year overall I just can't enjoy his game or really respect his "skill-set". He still remains the most boring and unwatchable superstar to me.

https://streamable.com/elvtg

I love watching Harden play. He reminds me of a perimeter Kevin McHale. You can watch him iso ten times per game and see a different move out of his bag of tricks every single time. The way he manipulates guys with fakes and leans and gets them to shift before going in for the kill is so cool, and his skill level as a perimeter shooter is GOAT.

Yeah, it sucks that sometimes he baits for fouls. It also sucks that LeBron charges his should into people which should clearly be called offensive foul a few times a game. Sucks that Chris Paul does that move at halfcoutt that has injured Anthony Davis twice. SUcks that Manu flops. Sucks that Wade bitches at refs instead of getting back on D. Sucks that Westbrook takes rebounds from his teammates.

Every player does irritating stuff. Just have to take the good with the bad IMO.

Eh...none of the things you listed actually take away from my enjoyment of watching the superstar except for CP also trying to bait for fouls which actually ended up costing him the OKC series. Harden just takes it to a whole new level and so many Houston games I watch all you get left with the feeling is that his entire game is baiting people into fouls or selling fouls which aren't even fouls like this PG call.

Like seriously, there is no comparison between Russ "stealing" boards or Wade not getting back on D vs a guy who relies significantly on getting BS foul calls. How is that even close to being the same thing in terms of enjoyment? And yes, Wade not getting back on transition is D is very damn annoying but not what I am talking about and Harden does a lot of that stuff anyway (not getting back in transition, just giving up on entire plays if a ref doesn't bail him out etc).

I mean he shoots 10 free throw attempts every game while taking 20 field goals and 9 assists. So fouls are literally only 25% of the times when he causes his team to score, and not all of those can be BS fouls otherwise people wouldn’t bother posting them on vine.

Seems like a pretty small issue that’s blown out of proportion to me, it bothers me about as much as allthose things I mentioned above and happens just about as frequently.

[PaulieWal]

I love watching Harden play. He reminds me of a perimeter Kevin McHale. You can watch him iso ten times per game and see a different move out of his bag of tricks every single time. The way he manipulates guys with fakes and leans and gets them to shift before going in for the kill is so cool, and his skill level as a perimeter shooter is GOAT.

Yeah, it sucks that sometimes he baits for fouls. It also sucks that LeBron charges his should into people which should clearly be called offensive foul a few times a game. Sucks that Chris Paul does that move at halfcoutt that has injured Anthony Davis twice. SUcks that Manu flops. Sucks that Wade bitches at refs instead of getting back on D. Sucks that Westbrook takes rebounds from his teammates.

Every player does irritating stuff. Just have to take the good with the bad IMO.

Eh...none of the things you listed actually take away from my enjoyment of watching the superstar except for CP also trying to bait for fouls which actually ended up costing him the OKC series. Harden just takes it to a whole new level and so many Houston games I watch all you get left with the feeling is that his entire game is baiting people into fouls or selling fouls which aren't even fouls like this PG call.

Like seriously, there is no comparison between Russ "stealing" boards or Wade not getting back on D vs a guy who relies significantly on getting BS foul calls. How is that even close to being the same thing in terms of enjoyment? And yes, Wade not getting back on transition is D is very damn annoying but not what I am talking about and Harden does a lot of that stuff anyway (not getting back in transition, just giving up on entire plays if a ref doesn't bail him out etc).

I mean he shoots 10 free throw attempts every game while taking 20 field goals and 9 assists. So fouls are literally only 25% of the times when he causes his team to score, and not all of those can be BS fouls otherwise people wouldn’t bother posting them on vine.

Seems like a pretty small issue that’s blown out of proportion to me, it bothers me about as much as allthose things I mentioned above and happens just about as frequently.

Two things:

1) People actually do post of these calls on reddit NBA about BS fouls Harden gets.

2) This is clearly a person preference thing. I just find him a very boring and unwatchable star. Still think he's been the best player during the RS, so hopefully not being biased. Reminds me of Dwight in some ways. A lot of people used to think even at his peak he was a very boring superstar and I feel that way for Harden. Just don't enjoy his game or playing style at all.

[Texas Chuck]

so the no-brainer awards for me this year:

DPOY: Gobert Yeah he missed some games, but he's played enough and when he plays that Jazz defense is just stupid
ROY: Ben Simmons. Mitchell is a ton of fun and having a great year, but Simmons is the clear cut guy.
COY: Brad Stevens. Lose your best all-around player minutes into the RS, fight through major issues all year, essentially have an entirely new rotation outside of Horford and Smart and just keeps figuring it out.
EOY: Morey. The smart deals to get the contracts to trade for Paul, sneaky signings like Tucker and Mbah a Moute, resisting some of the rumored deals involving Melo or dealing Capela for a veteran center

MVP is going to be Harden, but I think Lebron has a real case here.

[Doctor MJ]

Jokic continues his push for top 5 inclusion.

Does he? I can’t think of many star players more disappointing this season

I had a similar thought to you when I read Mystical's post. Jokic really shouldn't be a Top 5 guy imho, but damn, here aren't really 5 Top 5 seasons taking place this season are there?

The Western Conference this year may only have 2 50 win teams. There have been times when every team in the Western playoffs has that many. As such the whole notion of "gotta win 50 to be an MVP candidate" starts looking a bit wonky.

If I do a query of stars who have won 50 games this year I get:

Harden 58
DeRozan 56

By contrast last year:

Curry 65
Harden/Kawhi 54
LeBron/Durant/Thomas/Gobert 51

This is why we have guys scrapping to get into the playoffs who have a case for Top 5 right now. Only a few teams are really at the top, and a lot of them don't really have candidates due to injury.

At this point at the end of the regular season, I've got it:

1. Harden
2. Paul
3. LeBron

And then after that, it really depends on how it shakes out. Davis is the most obvious choice, but there are only 2 games left and he still hasn't clinched a playoff spot. If he misses the playoffs, I doubt I give him the nod.

[Unbiased hater]

Jokic played very bad in the first half of the season, was very inconsistent and he started to play good after All Star participants were named and after injury replacements were selected. Then he started to play good for about one month, after that their team started to play bad , to lose games on the road and against tanking squads, were out of the playoff race where he had some games where he scored just 6 points and then Milsap returned, they both started to play well and now are very close to the playoff . If they clinch the playoff he could save the season but he cannot be in the consideration for the best season or at Top 5 .

[therealbig3]

I really didn't think LeBron was going to crack my RS top 5, even with his recent run of great play...but then a lot of the top candidates got hurt. It's hard for me to look at guys that are gonna play less than 60 games and take them over LeBron.

So Harden, LeBron, Davis, Oladipo, and Lillard should be the top 5 imo, with Giannis as an honorable mention.

Kinda confused why Oladipo continues to get ignored. He's been healthy, he's got great numbers, Indiana has been very good this year and actually improved without Paul George, and the +/- is in his favor as well. Is it because he sucked early in his career? Cuz I held that against him before too, but it's hard to argue with what he's doing.

[eminence]

Will wait til playoff seedings are finalized to put together a watch list, but at this point close to every playoff team has 1+ contenders. Heat/Wiz/maybe Spurs as exceptions? Agree with MJ that the candidate from whichever team in the West finishes 9th gets left off.

[bondom34]

so the no-brainer awards for me this year:

DPOY: Gobert Yeah he missed some games, but he's played enough and when he plays that Jazz defense is just stupid
ROY: Ben Simmons. Mitchell is a ton of fun and having a great year, but Simmons is the clear cut guy.
COY: Brad Stevens. Lose your best all-around player minutes into the RS, fight through major issues all year, essentially have an entirely new rotation outside of Horford and Smart and just keeps figuring it out.
EOY: Morey. The smart deals to get the contracts to trade for Paul, sneaky signings like Tucker and Mbah a Moute, resisting some of the rumored deals involving Melo or dealing Capela for a veteran center

MVP is going to be Harden, but I think Lebron has a real case here.

Agree on all points here except maybe Stevens. I have a few guys I haven't decided between yet. Snyder, Brown, Spo, Stevens, and even maybe Casey are all in it. Oh and McMillan.

[dontcalltimeout]

Jokic played very bad in the first half of the season, was very inconsistent and he started to play good after All Star participants were named and after injury replacements were selected. Then he started to play good for about one month, after that their team started to play bad , to lose games on the road and against tanking squads, were out of the playoff race where he had some games where he scored just 6 points and then Milsap returned, they both started to play well and now are very close to the playoff . If they clinch the playoff he could save the season but he cannot be in the consideration for the best season or at Top 5 .

Is that any different than Davis though? He had a hot stretch and the team went on a win streak but he's also had some dud likes losses to Orlando, Memphis, Atlanta, and Sacramento. And it's not like RPM or RAPM favor Davis over Jokic. Quite the opposite. The Nuggets SRS is better than the Pelicans too.

And I don't just direct this to you personally, but I just see the default assumption that Davis deserves top 5 consideration but Jokic does not.

And you're right, Jokic has certainly been better in the second half of the year. I just wonder if the narrative that Jokic has been underwhelming this year is actually real or if it's just bc his stat lines don't lead Sportcenter.

[Unbiased hater]

Before this season started Jokics fans were comparing him to Giannis bc they were competing for MIP and were saying that he is better but after this season those kind of conversations stoped so that proves my point this season as a whole wasnt that good .

[Mystical Apples]

Jokic played very bad in the first half of the season, was very inconsistent and he started to play good after All Star participants were named and after injury replacements were selected. Then he started to play good for about one month, after that their team started to play bad , to lose games on the road and against tanking squads, were out of the playoff race where he had some games where he scored just 6 points and then Milsap returned, they both started to play well and now are very close to the playoff . If they clinch the playoff he could save the season but he cannot be in the consideration for the best season or at Top 5 .

Is that any different than Davis though? He had a hot stretch and the team went on a win streak but he's also had some dud likes losses to Orlando, Memphis, Atlanta, and Sacramento. And it's not like RPM or RAPM favor Davis over Jokic. Quite the opposite. The Nuggets SRS is better than the Pelicans too.

And I don't just direct this to you personally, but I just see the default assumption that Davis deserves top 5 consideration but Jokic does not.

And you're right, Jokic has certainly been better in the second half of the year. I just wonder if the narrative that Jokic has been underwhelming this year is actually real or if it's just bc his stat lines don't lead Sportcenter.

My take as well. Seems like there could be a fair amount of selective scrutiny going on. For the season there isn't much separating Jokic and Davis, although I'd lean Jokic.

There's also no getting around Denver and New Orleans both having 33 wins on February 25th. And by the time Millsap returned on 2/27 Mirotic had already suited up 8 times for NOP.

[NinjaSheppard]

Jokic is nice but a defensive liability at the center position of his caliber is always going to have massive limitations on these lists.

[Mystical Apples]

Jokic is nice but a defensive liability at the center position of his caliber is always going to have massive limitations on these lists.

Playing devil's advocate, I'd suggest these type of lists overlook the impact of offensive efficiency on defensive efficiency. That and possibly overweight the importance of defense in general.

[Mystical Apples]

3 Sons playing for marbles tonight.

[ardee]

Harden
LeBron
Davis
Lillard
Giannis

Set in stone.

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[ardee]

I really didn't think LeBron was going to crack my RS top 5, even with his recent run of great play...but then a lot of the top candidates got hurt. It's hard for me to look at guys that are gonna play less than 60 games and take them over LeBron.

So Harden, LeBron, Davis, Oladipo, and Lillard should be the top 5 imo, with Giannis as an honorable mention.

Kinda confused why Oladipo continues to get ignored. He's been healthy, he's got great numbers, Indiana has been very good this year and actually improved without Paul George, and the +/- is in his favor as well. Is it because he sucked early in his career? Cuz I held that against him before too, but it's hard to argue with what he's doing.

He wasn't Adam Morisson for that stretch in Jan. It knocked him out of mvp contention but the last 30 games have been the best he's ever played at least offensively, even with everyone healthy I would only take Harden and Curry over him.

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[bondom34]

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Think pretty spot on with these. Adams as 2nd for mip I like.

[Mystical Apples]

Only real quibble for me is giving serious consideration to LMA and Durant but excluding Jimmy Butler.

The last spot came down to Lillard, Kevin Durant, Westbrook, LaMarcus Aldridge, the Toronto guards, and Nikola Jokic, keeping Denver alive to the last moment. (Kyrie Irving, Stephen Curry, Chris Paul and Jimmy Butler missed a few too many games.) I'd be fine with almost any of them. Durant is the best of those players, and was my initial choice -- a well-rounded superstar who will log almost 70 games for the championship co-favorite