Yeah I think we have to really get right with the fact that Jokic may well end up as the most impactful regular season player we've ever seen.
Are we just going to pretend 2009/2010 didn't happen? Jokic is going to have to put together some 30-40 win signals of his own for this claim to hold water.
I'm not looking to pretend anything and I'll readily say that from a peak carry-job perspective, '08-09 LeBron is at the top of my list. In all honesty when I made the statement I was thinking more from an extended prime perspective.
An extended prime perspective just makes Lebron a more daunting obstacle unless that extension stops at the end of his Miami years.
2015-2017 sees sub-30 win teams turning 60-win with him, 2018 sees a 50(or 45-win team) collapse to 20ish wins and he's an outlier relative to age or year played the others. Over 13-years his teams experience an average +12 or 30-win jump and that "take out games at the end of the season" adjustment advertised earlier just makes both of Lebron's cleveland stints look more impactful:
Spoiler:
lebron 09-21 wowy 656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate 37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level) net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level) +8.6 ortg difference -3.68 drtg difference +12 total swing
13/14-16/17 Lebron teams without Lebron if we filter out games without at the end of the season: 5-19 (17-win pace)
13/14-16/17 Lebron teams with Lebron 171-61 with (60-win pace)
43-win lift
07/08-2010/2011 Lebron teams without Lebron if we filter out games without at the end of the season: 1-9 (8-win pace)
07/08-2010/2011 Lebron teams with Lebron 228-83 (60-win pace)
52-win lift
I also think it's worth noting how players look early and late relative to typical trajectories and Lebron obviously is going to have an advantage with the former and Jokic would have to break some precedent for the latter to match.
Lebron is also at this point the standard in RAPM. Maaybe Jokic catches up, but that's a big maybe.
The accomplishment mentioned (leading league in +/- with a +20 On-Off) is something that only Jokic has done more than once, and unlike LeBron or most other careers, things seem like they're only getting more extreme.
Re: 30-40 win signals. Here you lose me a bit. While a combination of +/- & On-Off isn't the same as a regression model, I'd be surprised if Jokic wasn't putting up pretty similar RAPM signals at this point. If your understanding is that you have said regression data and he's nowhere near where '08-09 LeBron was, that's interesting and I'd like to see what you're seeing.
I am alluding to the Nuggets never looking like a sub-20 cast when they play games without Jokic. Including this year where they've gone 1-2 and -3(though 2023 is the sample i'd weigh the most for obvious reasons). The Nuggets are currently at a 42-win pace (+2.8).
For Jokic to be the most impactful regular-season player ever his team needs to be multiple orders of magnitude worse than they have shown over full games at any point in his tenure. Them dropping by 30 points over a few minutes per game on a team that's platooning like it's the 80s doesn't really sell me on the concept Jokic is heroically lifting a 5-win cast.
Though yes, Jokic also has yet to pull the RAPM dominance Lebron has enjoyed(paticularly in early cleveland) and he is in a situation more conducive for it.
ShotCreator wrote:I guess it shows just how good Jokic has become that the arguments against him are so flagrantly bad but it is a shame. He is visually ridiculous out there. The fact that guys like Giannis and AD can put up numbers even somewhat close at times proves this.
Jokic is better than the next best guy by an all-time distance.
All-time distance might be a bit hyperbolic since Jokic has Giannis to contend with. But probably as wide since Lebron over Curry in the mid-2010s.
But agree wholeheartedly with the bolded part. Some on here were raving about how good and ideal his "team construction" is in a not-so-veiled effort to diminish him. Nevermind that Jokic has never played with an all-star or all-defense guy and that he's stuck on a roster with two of the worst contracts in the league.
Actually watching Giannis, his defense is non-existent this year. And he's still a mistake prone blackhole on offense.
This is why I said the boxscore, if anything is making this look way closer than it is. Visually, Jokic, is tiers above Giannis this year. I think Giannis is a tier below his true peak of around the year 2020. His motor is very diminished. And without Budenholzer he is back to his defensive level of the Jason Kidd days.
To say nothing of the monumental gap of how Giannis and Jokic actually play on offense. The immense difference in how they affect temmates touches and play style.
Shai is the clear second best RS player this year btw.
Think about the fact that Denver is clearly worse since 2023. Losing Brown, KCP, and Murray's drastic fall off.
And they're playing at the same level with Jokic on (+11.1) that they were with Jokic on in 2023(+12.0). It's insanity. Jokic peaked defensively around 2021 or 2022, but offensively he's never been better than this.
falcolombardi wrote:There is imo somethingh to be said about being a bit too blinded by the newer crazy slashline
At different points whether box score, rapm, on-off guys have had absurd statlines that no one saw coming (harden in his absurd scoring years, curry explosion in 16, embiid or luka absurd scoring seasons, jokic combo of scoring, assists and rebounding, etc)
and usually these get a lot of rightful hype, sometimes being compared positively to even goat tier players (luka vs lebron was/is still a thingh in some fringes due to boxscore) but it dies down when it doesnt translate to rings (fairly or unfairly)
Jokic is rightfully so the new big thingh and may go down as a top 10 player ever to me when is all said and done...but at the same time a lot of the reason he is seen so highly when giannis or luka are not is that giannis ring is less recent and luka finals run happened in a stronger league than jokic ring did (does anyonr think 24 dallas or 18 houston couldnt have made a title run with 23 denver path?)
Is why i would ask people to keep more perspective and wait to see how the rest of jokic career plays off particularly in post season
Ultimately, what's missing from his career is out of his control and is immaterial to his quality as a player, though, so it doesn't really mean much to anything except a "RANGZ" type argument, you know what I mean?
ShotCreator wrote:I guess it shows just how good Jokic has become that the arguments against him are so flagrantly bad but it is a shame. He is visually ridiculous out there. The fact that guys like Giannis and AD can put up numbers even somewhat close at times proves this.
Jokic is better than the next best guy by an all-time distance.
All-time distance might be a bit hyperbolic since Jokic has Giannis to contend with. But probably as wide since Lebron over Curry in the mid-2010s.
But agree wholeheartedly with the bolded part. Some on here were raving about how good and ideal his "team construction" is in a not-so-veiled effort to diminish him. Nevermind that Jokic has never played with an all-star or all-defense guy and that he's stuck on a roster with two of the worst contracts in the league.
Actually watching Giannis, his defense is non-existent this year. And he's still a mistake prone blackhole on offense.
This is why I said the boxscore, if anything is making this look way closer than it is. Visually, Jokic, is tiers above Giannis this year. I think Giannis is a tier below his true peak of around the year 2020. His motor is very diminished. And without Budenholzer he is back to his defensive level of the Jason Kidd days.
To say nothing of the monumental gap of how Giannis and Jokic actually play on offense. The immense difference in how they affect temmates touches and play style.
Shai is the clear second best RS player this year btw.
I like that giannis take.
Giannis is posting insane offensive production this year but I can't help but share your sentiment that while his midrange development is fantastic, this does not feel like he's playing at his peak level due to the motor falloff and overall 2 way impact drop.
His advanced stuff looks elite still, but I'd wager thats due in part to his awful supporting cast requiring him to be on the floor.
We've also seen the last two years with Dame haven't been seamless, and I think they're both at fault somewhat. Everyone assumed Giannis could just be a dominant roll big, but its not been the case. Both guys want the ball in their hands to be at their best, and Giannis hasn't successfully found a scaled down role offensively next to Dame (who has declined too amongst the scaling issues) while scaling up defensively.
I'd agree his peak came around 2020-2022, we just haven't really realised it yet en masse
I feel like the lack of great consistent players and teams have inflated some of the value of the awards and thus the legacy of some players; like Jokic is absolutely deserving of 4 MVPs(2020-this season) but he's not a top 10 player of all time. I feel the same way with Anthony Davis not getting a single DPOY in this era despite being one of the best defensive players of his generation.
The best players are not giving a full 82 game regular season any more and some players/teams are taking advantage and getting (un)earned legacy credit for it.
The Greatest of All Time debate in basketball is essentially who has the greatest basketball resume of the player who has the best highlights instead of who is the best player
OhayoKD wrote: Are we just going to pretend 2009/2010 didn't happen? Jokic is going to have to put together some 30-40 win signals of his own for this claim to hold water.
I'm not looking to pretend anything and I'll readily say that from a peak carry-job perspective, '08-09 LeBron is at the top of my list. In all honesty when I made the statement I was thinking more from an extended prime perspective.
An extended prime perspective just makes Lebron a more daunting obstacle unless that extension stops at the end of his Miami years.
2015-2017 sees sub-30 win teams turning 60-win with him, 2018 sees a 50(or 45-win team) collapse to 20ish wins and he's an outlier relative to age or year played the others. Over 13-years his teams experience an average +12 or 30-win jump and that "take out games at the end of the season" adjustment advertised earlier just makes both of Lebron's cleveland stints look more impactful:
Spoiler:
lebron 09-21 wowy 656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate 37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level) net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level) +8.6 ortg difference -3.68 drtg difference +12 total swing
13/14-16/17 Lebron teams without Lebron if we filter out games without at the end of the season: 5-19 (17-win pace)
13/14-16/17 Lebron teams with Lebron 171-61 with (60-win pace)
43-win lift
07/08-2010/2011 Lebron teams without Lebron if we filter out games without at the end of the season: 1-9 (8-win pace)
07/08-2010/2011 Lebron teams with Lebron 228-83 (60-win pace)
52-win lift
I also think it's worth noting how players look early and late relative to typical trajectories and Lebron obviously is going to have an advantage with the former and Jokic would have to break some precedent for the latter to match.
Lebron is also at this point the standard in RAPM. Maaybe Jokic catches up, but that's a big maybe.
So, LeBron has both the peak and extended prime at this time, but as alluded to (below), Jokic has now done something in repeat that never got repeated by LeBron. Doesn't mean I'm looking to make a definitive statement against LeBron, but it's an eye-opening continuing trend for Jokic.
OhayoKD wrote:
The accomplishment mentioned (leading league in +/- with a +20 On-Off) is something that only Jokic has done more than once, and unlike LeBron or most other careers, things seem like they're only getting more extreme.
Re: 30-40 win signals. Here you lose me a bit. While a combination of +/- & On-Off isn't the same as a regression model, I'd be surprised if Jokic wasn't putting up pretty similar RAPM signals at this point. If your understanding is that you have said regression data and he's nowhere near where '08-09 LeBron was, that's interesting and I'd like to see what you're seeing.
I am alluding to the Nuggets never looking like a sub-20 cast when they play games without Jokic. Including this year where they've gone 1-2 and -3(though 2023 is the sample i'd weigh the most for obvious reasons). The Nuggets are currently at a 42-win pace (+2.8).
For Jokic to be the most impactful regular-season player ever his team needs to be multiple orders of magnitude worse than they have shown over full games at any point in his tenure. Them dropping by 30 points over a few minutes per game on a team that's platooning like it's the 80s doesn't really sell me on the concept Jokic is heroically lifting a 5-win cast.
Though yes, Jokic also has yet to pull the RAPM dominance Lebron has enjoyed(paticularly in early cleveland) and he is in a situation more conducive for it.
Well so what you're really referring to here then is LeBron leaving the Cavs and them sucking the next year, right? Which means that to have an apples-to-apples comparison we'll need Jokic to ditch teams repeatedly. Maybe we'll eventually see that, but yeah, no way to do that particular comparison right now.
I'd note:
1. In '10-11 the Cavs started off 7-9 before they fell apart. So we're not talking about a situation where they were instantly terrible, and I'll tell ya, this isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon. Teams starting out the year not-great-but-competitive and then going into mail-it-in and eventually tank mode is a thing, as is the bottom dropping out of the defense when the team loses their vibe.
2. In '18-19 by contrast we're talking about a franchise that clearly changed their team and approach 180 degrees. Look at the key players in '18-19 and consider where they were the prior. Sorted by minutes:
Collin Sexton - a rookie who gets handed the reins immediately and to this point still hasn't established that he can be starter on a good team
Cedi Osman - previously a bench player, and a bench player once again when next on a good team
Jordan Clarkson - was a bench player, and actually still a bench player on the team who just happened to play enough to top all others
Larry Nance Jr. - I'm actually a real fan, but he's been a bench guy basically his whole career
Rodney Hood - had been brought in the previous year but he's spent his prime years on the bench
This then to say that this isn't the LeBron Cavs minus LeBron. It's a young team looking to give young guys a chance to grow up and maybe become a part of a new foundation for the Cavs...but of course none of them actually made that leap.
So yeah this then to say that while there are flaws with using in-season on-off, there are really issues without any kind of WOWY even across seasons. I use them, but they are not everything.
Doctor MJ wrote:So, LeBron has both the peak and extended prime at this time, but as alluded to (below), Jokic has now done something in repeat that never got repeated by LeBron. Doesn't mean I'm looking to make a definitive statement against LeBron, but it's an eye-opening continuing trend for Jokic.
Sure.
OhayoKD wrote:
The accomplishment mentioned (leading league in +/- with a +20 On-Off) is something that only Jokic has done more than once, and unlike LeBron or most other careers, things seem like they're only getting more extreme.
Re: 30-40 win signals. Here you lose me a bit. While a combination of +/- & On-Off isn't the same as a regression model, I'd be surprised if Jokic wasn't putting up pretty similar RAPM signals at this point. If your understanding is that you have said regression data and he's nowhere near where '08-09 LeBron was, that's interesting and I'd like to see what you're seeing.
I am alluding to the Nuggets never looking like a sub-20 cast when they play games without Jokic. Including this year where they've gone 1-2 and -3(though 2023 is the sample i'd weigh the most for obvious reasons). The Nuggets are currently at a 42-win pace (+2.8).
For Jokic to be the most impactful regular-season player ever his team needs to be multiple orders of magnitude worse than they have shown over full games at any point in his tenure. Them dropping by 30 points over a few minutes per game on a team that's platooning like it's the 80s doesn't really sell me on the concept Jokic is heroically lifting a 5-win cast.
Though yes, Jokic also has yet to pull the RAPM dominance Lebron has enjoyed(paticularly in early cleveland) and he is in a situation more conducive for it.
Well so what you're really referring to here then is LeBron leaving the Cavs and them sucking the next year, right? Which means that to have an apples-to-apples comparison we'll need Jokic to ditch teams repeatedly. Maybe we'll eventually see that, but yeah, no way to do that particular comparison right now.
Going by net-rating the best bit for jokic here is 8 games in 2022 where the Nuggets go -7 without (an outlier relative to all the other years) and +3 with. The 2015, 2016, and 2017 Cavs all see much bigger jumps with Cleveland being worse without and better with. By Record 2022 or 2023 work for Jokic but again, in all three of the referenced years, Cleveland is worse without and better with producing a significantly bigger delta.
Keep in mind, those two years are relative outliers for Jokic, and they are being compared to non-outliers for Lebron
I'd note:
1. In '10-11 the Cavs started off 7-9 before they fell apart. So we're not talking about a situation where they were instantly terrible, and I'll tell ya, this isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon. Teams starting out the year not-great-but-competitive and then going into mail-it-in and eventually tank mode is a thing, as is the bottom dropping out of the defense when the team loses their vibe.
I'm not sure what you're using as your cut-off here. The Cavs blew things up after 21 games. During those 21 games they played at a 15-win pace and posted an 18-win SRS (latter is courtesy of Ben Taylor) with Dan Gilbert letting everyone know they were going to go all out. Their lineup at the start of their big losing streak in game 17 is pretty much the same lineup in game 1 and the last game you count here(a win vs Memphis) and if we go to the next non-blowout(they suffer 3 straight blowout defeats after the last game you counted) the minute distribution is pretty much the same as well.
It also aligns with what happened in the previous seasons with Lebron (though that is a much smaller sample).
The Cavs post-trade actually saw their record improve a bit and their srs got marginally worse.
2. In '18-19 by contrast we're talking about a franchise that clearly changed their team and approach 180 degrees. Look at the key players in '18-19 and consider where they were the prior. Sorted by minutes:
Collin Sexton - a rookie who gets handed the reins immediately and to this point still hasn't established that he can be starter on a good team
Cedi Osman - previously a bench player, and a bench player once again when next on a good team
Jordan Clarkson - was a bench player, and actually still a bench player on the team who just happened to play enough to top all others
Larry Nance Jr. - I'm actually a real fan, but he's been a bench guy basically his whole career
Rodney Hood - had been brought in the previous year but he's spent his prime years on the bench
This then to say that this isn't the LeBron Cavs minus LeBron. It's a young team looking to give young guys a chance to grow up and maybe become a part of a new foundation for the Cavs...but of course none of them actually made that leap.
The thing is the Cavs also looked awful when we isolate for minutes or games with the other starters from 2018 when they were trying to win:
Spoiler:
JR (11 G), -9.2, minutes with. -3.06 George Hill (13 G), -11.2, minutes with, -5.98 Rodney Hood (53 G), -10.9, minutes with, -12.26
in addition to
Kevin Love (22 G), -6, minutes with, -3.45
We also have the 3 previous seasons where the Cavs went
3-10 1-5 0-8
Had a sub-30 win pace with kyrie and kevin love
And they played the first 5 games of the season starting everyone I listed except for JR and....went 0-4 while getting outscored by an average of 14.5 points.
I think all that pours a bit of cold water on the idea they'd have been significantly more competitive if they weren't starting young players.
So yeah this then to say that while there are flaws with using in-season on-off, there are really issues without any kind of WOWY even across seasons. I use them, but they are not everything.
Sure. I would value Jokic showing Lebron+ RAPM dominance has a counterpoint alot more than I do Jokic's on/off though
It also doesn't hurt Lebron that, at least in the regular-season, his teams are basically teflon to his best teammate's absences. Without Mo-Williams in 2010 they go 11-0, +8. Without Kyrie/Wade Miami/Cleveland at a 58-win pace over a 6-year stretch. Nothing of the sort for Jokic/Murray so far.
While I'm certainly under the assumption that Jokic has a case for being the GOAT offensive player (I'm not remotely there with it being undisputed like some people are actually saying), I do find it interesting that he may be the only serious candidate who's never quarterbacked a Top-3 regular season offense. Had to double check and yup, highest was ironically pre-MVP Jokic in 2017 when Denver finished 4th.
While it's something I don't think any rational person would view as completely disqualifying, it is something to note when talking about how Jokic's absurd impact numbers have never really matched up with the kind of overall SRS and team net-rating juggernaut results that you'd expect, even when he's had the healthiest version of an optimized roster around him (2023 Nuggets were still "only" a 49-win pace team by net-rating).
Forget 2009 Lebron levels of lift, but I mean, can we see a 2019 or 2020 Bucks type RS run? What about 2007 Mavs or Suns? In a vacuum, was Curry's supporting casts pre-KD in 2015 and 2016 (between -2 and -4 net with him off the court) that much better than Murray, KCP, MPJ, Gordon, and Bruce Brown in the aggregate? Maybe I just value ceiling raising more than "how bad is your team without you?".
Either it's something misleading about the numbers and we really need to add more context to them, or you have to pretty much accept both that Malone is a bottom-5 coach (why not stagger Jokic with the bench more?) and his supporting cast is like, 2006 T-Wolves around KG level awful, year in and year out. I just find the latter point more unlikely than the former.
Ron Swanson wrote:While I'm certainly under the assumption that Jokic has a case for being the GOAT offensive player (I'm not remotely there with it being undisputed like some people are actually saying), I do find it interesting that he may be the only serious candidate who's never quarterbacked a Top-3 regular season offense. Had to double check and yup, highest was ironically pre-MVP Jokic in 2017 when Denver finished 4th.
While it's something I don't think any rational person would view as completely disqualifying, it is something to note when talking about how Jokic's absurd impact numbers have never really matched up with the kind of overall SRS and team net-rating juggernaut results that you'd expect, even when he's had the healthiest version of an optimized roster around him (2023 Nuggets were still "only" a 49-win pace team by net-rating).
So I think a real problem with this kind of argument is that no offense in NBA history has scored as efficiently with their star on the floor as the Nuggets with Jokic on the floor in the 2022-2023 season. The Nuggets were only 5th in offensive rating overall, but that’s just because they completely collapsed offensively with Jokic off the floor—which surely cannot be held against Jokic, and instead underscores how absurd the offensive rating with him on the court was. Of course, league-wide explosion in offense is a huge factor as to why this was the highest all time, but even looking relative to these past several seasons, the fact that no star player has had their team have as high an offensive rating with them on the floor as Jokic’s team did that season is definitely meaningful, and it surely renders the “never quarterback a Top-3 regular season offense” argument null. Jokic has absolutely “quarterbacked” elite offense—it’s just that he’s so good that he’s managed to do that on teams that can’t score otherwise, so the team doesn’t end up top of the league overall.
OhayoKD wrote:Lebron contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi.
Ron Swanson wrote:While I'm certainly under the assumption that Jokic has a case for being the GOAT offensive player (I'm not remotely there with it being undisputed like some people are actually saying), I do find it interesting that he may be the only serious candidate who's never quarterbacked a Top-3 regular season offense. Had to double check and yup, highest was ironically pre-MVP Jokic in 2017 when Denver finished 4th.
While it's something I don't think any rational person would view as completely disqualifying, it is something to note when talking about how Jokic's absurd impact numbers have never really matched up with the kind of overall SRS and team net-rating juggernaut results that you'd expect, even when he's had the healthiest version of an optimized roster around him (2023 Nuggets were still "only" a 49-win pace team by net-rating).
So I think a real problem with this kind of argument is that no offense in NBA history has scored as efficiently with their star on the floor as the Nuggets with Jokic on the floor in the 2022-2023 season. The Nuggets were only 5th in offensive rating overall, but that’s just because they completely collapsed offensively with Jokic off the floor—which surely cannot be held against Jokic, and instead underscores how absurd the offensive rating with him on the court was. Of course, league-wide explosion in offense is a huge factor as to why this was the highest all time, but even looking relative to these past several seasons, the fact that no star player has had their team have as high an offensive rating with them on the floor as Jokic’s team did that season is definitely meaningful, and it surely renders the “never quarterback a Top-3 regular season offense” argument null. Jokic has absolutely “quarterbacked” elite offense—it’s just that he’s so good that he’s managed to do that on teams that can’t score otherwise, so the team doesn’t end up top of the league overall.
I think people really overrate his teammates’ ability to create efficient offense without him. I hear the collinearity arguments but they ring hollow when considering that Jokic led a league-leading ORTG when he was on the court in 2022, when he was playing beside Monte Morris, Will Barton and Jeff Green as starters.
The fact that the Nuggets haven’t been as elite on offense overall is more of an indictment on Murray, who has proven to be incapable of leading an offense without Jokic year in and year out. That the Nuggets elected to give him a max contract despite knowing this full well is inexcusable.
Special_Puppy wrote:Net Rating Through 12/11/2024 1. OKC +15.1 2. CLE 11 3. MEM +10.8
Is even crazier because we have not had ihart and chet together and even had a six game stretches without any center going 3-3 and still have a -9.5 defense....
And in offense okc is +2.5 to +3 despite weirdly being 29th in free throws (with a rim heavy shot diet) and a bad start in 3 pt shooting compared to last year
Both our SRS and net reting are a small notch ahead of where last year boston was. If ihart came back 6 games early when chet got hurt this team may unironically be 21-3 which is where roughly what their SRS would peg them (while still not being fully healthy)
Ron Swanson wrote:While I'm certainly under the assumption that Jokic has a case for being the GOAT offensive player (I'm not remotely there with it being undisputed like some people are actually saying), I do find it interesting that he may be the only serious candidate who's never quarterbacked a Top-3 regular season offense. Had to double check and yup, highest was ironically pre-MVP Jokic in 2017 when Denver finished 4th.
While it's something I don't think any rational person would view as completely disqualifying, it is something to note when talking about how Jokic's absurd impact numbers have never really matched up with the kind of overall SRS and team net-rating juggernaut results that you'd expect, even when he's had the healthiest version of an optimized roster around him (2023 Nuggets were still "only" a 49-win pace team by net-rating).
Forget 2009 Lebron levels of lift, but I mean, can we see a 2019 or 2020 Bucks type RS run? What about 2007 Mavs or Suns? In a vacuum, was Curry's supporting casts pre-KD in 2015 and 2016 (between -2 and -4 net with him off the court) that much better than Murray, KCP, MPJ, Gordon, and Bruce Brown in the aggregate? Maybe I just value ceiling raising more than "how bad is your team without you?".
Either it's something misleading about the numbers and we really need to add more context to them, or you have to pretty much accept both that Malone is a bottom-5 coach (why not stagger Jokic with the bench more?) and his supporting cast is like, 2006 T-Wolves around KG level awful, year in and year out. I just find the latter point more unlikely than the former.
The current, obviously bad Denver Nuggets are playing at 2019 Bucks level when Jokic is on the court. In general they have been a +11 team with Jokic on since 2023.
They dominate with this guy. They're not playing mediocre basketball with him out there. So, you're seeing the Bucks type run. You're just seeing 2025 Westbrook and DeAndre Jordan with a couple raw late 1st round draft picks being forced into big minutes, destroy these leads the Jokic lineups are creating.
RS Jamal Murray is essentially a role player or good starting guard. He'd be a spark plug off the bench on the 2015 Warriors.
Current Jamal Murray is worse than that. He has had multiple explosive PS runs but the Nuggets by way of Murray's RS mediocrity, compared to say 2016 Draymond, has made Denver a team built for the playoffs. But again, they still dominate with Nikola Jokic. The ceiling is being raised. The floor is Julian Strawther's defensive awarenes.
