2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[Peregrine01]

I can't believe Chicago won 6 in 8 years

4 in 8 already seems unbelievable

What goes understated was how much of an iron-man Jordan was. He basically never got hurt after 86 and played close to 80 games every season. Warriors were mainly derailed by injuries (Curry in 16; Klay and KD in 19).

None of their top 3 guys ever missed a playoff game in those runs, that is pretty insane, Pippen basically never missed any RS time either until 98.

Feel like that is far less repeatable than anything else, pretty much seems like no matter who you got that over the course of even just 2-3 seasons a guy out of a contending core will always miss time these days. Just a different view/approach to things these days.

Like you said even during the Warriors 5 year run, Curry, KD and Klay all missed critical games and stretches.

It’s one thing I dont quite understand. Nutrition, science, rehab, etc is all so much better these days and they take days off but the players of yesteryear just seemed so much more durable.

Is the game just that much more dangerous now? Or did they play through a lot of stuff that today’s players just don’t?

[Owly]

I can't believe Chicago won 6 in 8 years

4 in 8 already seems unbelievable

What goes understated was how much of an iron-man Jordan was. He basically never got hurt after 86 and played close to 80 games every season. Warriors were mainly derailed by injuries (Curry in 16; Klay and KD in 19).

None of their top 3 guys ever missed a playoff game in those runs, that is pretty insane, Pippen basically never missed any RS time either until 98.

Feel like that is far less repeatable than anything else, pretty much seems like no matter who you got that over the course of even just 2-3 seasons a guy out of a contending core will always miss time these days. Just a different view/approach to things these days.

Like you said even during the Warriors 5 year run, Curry, KD and Klay all missed critical games and stretches.

I would think (could be wrong - and haven't looked closely at injuries) the contracts is a biggest change. You don't get to lock guys in on long term deals. So now half way through a contract a team has to be looking over it's shoulder if the superstar isn't happy and they want don't want to risk losing him for nothing (or getting a bad trade deal late in the contract). And that's assuming the guy wants to go out 4-5 years. With the individual max, less flexibility to renegotiate etc top tier guys may choose that they prefer the freedom to dictate their destiny, confident that they will still be able to get paid later (and have huge amounts anyway, and money not directly from basketball).

Mind you for an age nobody repeated (though I'd argue there were dynastic teams), and any team collaring a lot of titles is a real achievement and with a playoff system you have to be good and lucky.

[Owly]

What goes understated was how much of an iron-man Jordan was. He basically never got hurt after 86 and played close to 80 games every season. Warriors were mainly derailed by injuries (Curry in 16; Klay and KD in 19).

None of their top 3 guys ever missed a playoff game in those runs, that is pretty insane, Pippen basically never missed any RS time either until 98.

Feel like that is far less repeatable than anything else, pretty much seems like no matter who you got that over the course of even just 2-3 seasons a guy out of a contending core will always miss time these days. Just a different view/approach to things these days.

Like you said even during the Warriors 5 year run, Curry, KD and Klay all missed critical games and stretches.

It’s one thing I dont quite understand. Nutrition, science, rehab, etc is all so much better these days and they take days off but the players of yesteryear just seemed so much more durable.

Is the game just that much more dangerous now? Or did they play through a lot of stuff that today’s players just don’t?

Would imagine it's a more demanding game. That's what I hear anyway, more/sharper cuts, greater forces (maybe more distance covered?) that sort of thing. I'd guess playing through stuff would have led to bad longevity.

[parsnips33]

Warriors essentially played an 8 man rotation in the Finals. Half of those guys (Wiggins/Payton/Draymond/Loon) shot under 30% from 3. And yet the offense overperformed against the best defense in the league

When you talk about the value of spacing and gravity, that's what you're talking about

[Peregrine01]

None of their top 3 guys ever missed a playoff game in those runs, that is pretty insane, Pippen basically never missed any RS time either until 98.

Feel like that is far less repeatable than anything else, pretty much seems like no matter who you got that over the course of even just 2-3 seasons a guy out of a contending core will always miss time these days. Just a different view/approach to things these days.

Like you said even during the Warriors 5 year run, Curry, KD and Klay all missed critical games and stretches.

It’s one thing I dont quite understand. Nutrition, science, rehab, etc is all so much better these days and they take days off but the players of yesteryear just seemed so much more durable.

Is the game just that much more dangerous now? Or did they play through a lot of stuff that today’s players just don’t?

Would imagine it's a more demanding game. That's what I hear anyway, more/sharper cuts, greater forces (maybe more distance covered?) that sort of thing. I'd guess playing through stuff would have led to bad longevity.

I do think the game is faster, more unpredictable and physically demanding than it's ever been. But I also suspect that guys in the past were playing with injuries no one even knew at the time. And this ultimately led to shorter careers. We have guys now (especially those who take care of their bodies) who are playing well into their mid-30s. This didn't happen before.

[GSP]

Things that killed the Celtics for me

- Rebounding: they have Horford/Williams frontcourt and massive perimeter of Smart, Brown and Tatum, and Warriors not just survived benching the Draymond Looney frontcourt which was killing them on offense, but actually did great rebounding in the two wins in Boston.

- They had all the negatives of playing Smart at PG and none of the positives, he couldn't really lock in down in terms of ballhandling to prevent turnovers, and he got humiliated on defense. One of the worst DPOYs since Camby.

The bad turnovers and weak rebounding allowed the Warriors to play more in transition and get away from strong Celtics halfcourt defense.

Smart was a worse Dpoy than Camby. At least with Camby only Nene was a better defender on their own team. Smart prolly wasn't even a top 3 defender on our team. He was horrible against Miami and Gs downside of being a 220lb Pg he can't keep up with teams that screen and use offball movement like Miami and Gs. He matches up better with bigger teams with less movement

[sp6r=underrated]

Not a perfect match but I think Mandarich, for older NFL fans, is a decent parallel for Wiggins, a bust who eventually became a solid starter. Mandarich of course took a much more winding road.

[Owly]

It’s one thing I dont quite understand. Nutrition, science, rehab, etc is all so much better these days and they take days off but the players of yesteryear just seemed so much more durable.

Is the game just that much more dangerous now? Or did they play through a lot of stuff that today’s players just don’t?

Would imagine it's a more demanding game. That's what I hear anyway, more/sharper cuts, greater forces (maybe more distance covered?) that sort of thing. I'd guess playing through stuff would have led to bad longevity.

I do think the game is faster, more unpredictable and physically demanding than it's ever been. But I also suspect that guys in the past were playing with injuries no one even knew at the time. And this ultimately led to shorter careers. We have guys now (especially those who take care of their bodies) who are playing well into their mid-30s. This didn't happen before.

Maybe more now? But it hasn't been unheard of (though it might be read more than one way, depending on "well" [is it attached to the into] and the intended reading would affect the response).

As early as careers starting in the 40s, Schayes played 20-35 (Reference age) seasons (though non prime latterly, bad in his final incomplete season). Havlicek, Silas, Hayes, Jabbar lasted a long time starting in the 60s. Parish, Moses, Edwards from the 70s. Stockton and Malone and Willis and Oakley from the 80s. Obviously years of quality, trajectory, caliber at retirement varies here and these are the exceptions (but then I would think they always will be, but as I say I haven't looked so maybe to a lesser degree now).

[parsnips33]

Already excited to see what the young guys look like next year

I've somehow talked myself into Wiseman having a really nice season in '23

[The-Power]

I noticed that there was only one OT game during this year's entire playoffs. Last time this happened was in 2010. Not sure how many other times this has happened before in NBA history but this would seem to be quite extraordinary.

[Lou Fan]

I wonder where Draymond ends up in the next top 100 project. He barely squeeked in last time I have to imagine he'll be up from there as 98 in 2020 seemed quite low at the time and he's added a couple more seasons. I'm thinking 50s-70s range is very likely.

[Jaivl]

I wonder where Draymond ends up in the next top 100 project. He barely squeeked in last time I have to imagine he'll be up from there as 98 in 2020 seemed quite low at the time and he's added a couple more seasons. I'm thinking 50s-70s range is very likely.

You'd have to be irrationally high on Green to get him into the 50s I think - I credit him with close to an all-star caliber year even in his weak 2020, rate his peak as top 5, higher than a guy like Doncic, and I still have him #73.

Or vote by rings, I guess, but... meh.

[Lou Fan]

I wonder where Draymond ends up in the next top 100 project. He barely squeeked in last time I have to imagine he'll be up from there as 98 in 2020 seemed quite low at the time and he's added a couple more seasons. I'm thinking 50s-70s range is very likely.

You'd have to be irrationally high on Green to get him into the 50s I think - I credit him with close to an all-star caliber year even in his weak 2020, rate his peak as top 5, higher than a guy like Doncic, and I still have him #73.

Or vote by rings, I guess, but... meh.

Well he'll have another year under his belt by then and with a 9 year prime and a very high peak he could have a case against guys like Dantley and Mutombo in the 50s. I agree 60s-70s probably more likely but who knows.

[falcolombardi]

i feel like the 2022 run for curry and warriors big 3 has some of the same vibes as 2020 for lebron (roughly the same age too, curry is a year younger than bron was)

a prime level regular season a step below his best, a strong but not peak level playoffs then go off in the finals when pressed to close the deal

curry, draymond and klay all will be entering an age where injuries get worse and worse and the physical decline after them is harsher and harsher on top of the usual mental fatigue for next season after a finals run

their young talent may step up and prolong their contending status but probably only as long as curry and to a lesser extent dray can remain in form

on other corners of the league the clippers are a mistery with their health issues.

suns need to do some soul searching and solve the ayton situstion but i think they could recover from this year disaster and at least have a puncher chance. The issue will be more mentally recovering from this year that their actual level of play

bucks shouldnt overreact but also not get complacent, giannis still has thinghs to improve on and they need to figure out their playoffs offense, look for wing depth and jrue/brook/middleton backups if possible

sixers...i love maxey and his rise but i think harden may be done as a superstar, look to see if they can offload tobias for depth pieces as he doesnt move the needle for them in the playoffs. Pray harden has a bit of a comeback year or thybulle learns to score

be on the look out for a luka leap year into his actual prime as he closes on his mid 20's (next year he will be 2009 lebron age) his shooting, conditioning and off ball game (amd of course defense) are areas of improvement

memphis should remain a though team for anyone and a regular season 55+ win team but i dont know if they will be ready to contend, i think jaren jackson potential is the ultimate scary element to their ceiling

dont see denver contending even if murray returns at 100%, their defense has too many weaknesses as currently constructed. they should rebuild the whole thingh around jokic but with more focus on defense than offemse

miami feels like a team that peaked, butler is not getting younger and adebayo feels like he reached a plateau, expect them to be a borderline contender for a couple more years before falling off

boston will go as far as robert williams rise takes them, think he still has more upside left that even tatum. if their big 3 of brown, tatum and williams all improve they may become the strongest team in the league but that is a what if still

nets are a mistery, there is a clear path to winning a ring next year for them around durant and kyrie, but it will require them making shrewd moves to get enough defense around their iso scorers without letting them completely devoid of spacing to work with

lakers.... is not impossible that davis has a reasonably healthy year, it happens every 3rd year or so. and is technically possible lakers will make good moves to complement their roster and depth

but their "win condition" is asking a 38 year old player who has been strugglin with injuries at old age to turn back the clock a bit one last time. And even as a fan i think is unlikely (but let it be told that if someone can dominate the playoffs at 38 lebron is as good a bet as any...or kareem who has already kind of did it )

[LukaTheGOAT]

Read on Twitter

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[ardee]

Read on Twitter

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CP3 did a pretty good job on Durant in 2014 too, which imo was peak Durant, despite giving up 10-12 inches.

[cupcakesnake]

Would imagine it's a more demanding game. That's what I hear anyway, more/sharper cuts, greater forces (maybe more distance covered?) that sort of thing. I'd guess playing through stuff would have led to bad longevity.

I do think the game is faster, more unpredictable and physically demanding than it's ever been. But I also suspect that guys in the past were playing with injuries no one even knew at the time. And this ultimately led to shorter careers. We have guys now (especially those who take care of their bodies) who are playing well into their mid-30s. This didn't happen before.

Maybe more now? But it hasn't been unheard of (though it might be read more than one way, depending on "well" [is it attached to the into] and the intended reading would affect the response).

As early as careers starting in the 40s, Schayes played 20-35 (Reference age) seasons (though non prime latterly, bad in his final incomplete season). Havlicek, Silas, Hayes, Jabbar lasted a long time starting in the 60s. Parish, Moses, Edwards from the 70s. Stockton and Malone and Willis and Oakley from the 80s. Obviously years of quality, trajectory, caliber at retirement varies here and these are the exceptions (but then I would think they always will be, but as I say I haven't looked so maybe to a lesser degree now).

I know there was a theory being kicked around blaming the AAU circuit/high school system. It was essentially saying that kids/college prospects nowadays are playing wayyyy too much basketball while their body is still developing and getting the wear and tear kind of injuries that was typically reserved for much older players. Bascially that players in the American system are showing up to the NBA as damaged goods.

Baxter Holmes wrote this 2-part story in 2019
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27148543/under-knife-exposing-america-youth-basketball-crisis

I haven't read it since it came out, but it's the best/most plausible theory I've read on the section.

[Peregrine01]

Read on Twitter

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For all the talk about KD being the most unstoppable iso scorer in the league, he doesn’t actually score that well in isolation. I’m pretty sure Jokic’s numbers in isolation are quite better.

[eminence]

Where are folks anticipating Jokic winds up in the peaks project and where he starts getting discussed?

There seems to be strong pushback to current Curry being a reasonable choice over him this season, which to me would indicate a different level from the peak Dirk/Kobe types of the world would seem to be the consensus. Can Jokic make a push for top 10? Higher? Will he get brought up in thread #1?

[Texas Chuck]

Where are folks anticipating Jokic winds up in the peaks project and where he starts getting discussed?

There seems to be strong pushback to current Curry being a reasonable choice over him this season, which to me would indicate a different level from the peak Dirk/Kobe types of the world would seem to be the consensus. Can Jokic make a push for top 10? Higher? Will he get brought up in thread #1?

Wait are you saying that if 2022 was Curry's peak that it belongs in the discussion at 1? Because you seem to be suggesting that you believe Curry was as good or better than Jokic this year and that Jokic this year belongs in top 10 peaks?

That doesn't seem right to me, but man the Curry talk the past couple weeks on this board has been pretty wild so maybe I'm the guy way off base. But I don't have this year of Curry to be one of the ten best seasons of all-time or really even close to it. He had a great season to be sure, but historical? I'm just not seeing that.