Retro Player of the Year Project

[Doctor MJ]

I feel horrible leaving Durant off, but it's clear he didn't have his playoff reps and it'd be just as hard taking off Dwight, so w/e. KD will make plenty of POY lists I'm sure.

If Durant is off than you should replace Nash with Gasol.[/quote]

Personally it's going to be really hard for me to leave Durant out of the top 5, so good chance Nash isn't in my top 5. Nash over Gasol seems pretty clear though. First, Nash has a far superior regular season, plays great in the playoffs, and when the two teams met, Gasol was only a major factor until Phoenix adjusted - to me Nash was the clear #2 guy in that series behind Kobe.

[ronnymac2]

Uggghhh....I hate the time after the finals are over. All sorts of incredibly stupid threads pop up everywhere with overreactions to everything. I'm going exclusively to RPOY threads for at least a week. haha


I was incredibly dissappointed with Lebron in game 5. Other than that, I think he had a good series. That game six loss wasn't his fault. He dragged that team to within a few points in the fourth with very little help. I'll criticize his game 5, but that's about it.

[ElGee]

I'm leaning towards:

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Nash
4. Lebron
5. Howard

Seems harsh to Lebron but I can't get over the way he carried himself in that Celtics series. Kobe and Durant felt like guys who just got stifled by the Celtics d. Lebron had the anti heart of a champion that series which matters to me much more, especially considering that entire Cavs team and crowd took after his lead.

I feel horrible leaving Durant off, but it's clear he didn't have his playoff reps and it'd be just as hard taking off Dwight, so w/e. KD will make plenty of POY lists I'm sure.

I don't understand this, at all. If this type of thinking isn't the ultimate case of a double standard, I don't know what is. We have a player who is injured, who has one "weird" game (I'll call it that, for now) and out of ~100 basketball games and 11 playoff games, most of which he was better than the rest of the league in, you're presumably moving him down 3 spots in the rankings because of some ethereal observation like "anti-heart." Like, players don't have bad games.

Oh, "it's the way it happened" they all say. And that's exactly what I don't get it. If someone has a bad ball-game, it's a bad ball-game. Unless you think you can't win with this player and there is something deeper, I don't even understand how you can extrapolate from that single game such a devastating critique. For goodness sakes, if the Cavs won the game (largely independent of LeBron's play) no one would ever have this discussion. AND we saw how good the Celtics were -- at the time no one understood the type of defense they were playing when that series was unfolding.

[Sedale Threatt]

Minge, thanks for posting that write-up. Very, very interesting, on a lot of different subjects -- Kobe, Gasol, Doc Rivers and Bill Simmons.

I always bought into the notion that Doc was kind of a clown, but I really grew to respect his approach during this season. He squeezed the absolute maximum out of that team. I guarantee you the Celtics would never have gotten half as far as they did with 95% of the coaches in this league. He managed them almost perfectly.

[Doctor MJ]

Minge, thanks for posting that write-up. Very, very interesting, on a lot of different subjects -- Kobe, Gasol, Doc Rivers and Bill Simmons.

I always bought into the notion that Doc was kind of a clown, but I really grew to respect his approach during this season. He squeezed the absolute maximum out of that team. I guarantee you the Celtics would never have gotten half as far as they did with 95% of the coaches in this league. He managed them almost perfectly.

No one on the Celtics gained in reputation these last years more than Doc. Interesting how I guy can look so flawed with bad players and so smart with good players.

[semi-sentient]

I'm leaning towards:

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Nash
4. Lebron
5. Howard

Seems harsh to Lebron but I can't get over the way he carried himself in that Celtics series. Kobe and Durant felt like guys who just got stifled by the Celtics d. Lebron had the anti heart of a champion that series which matters to me much more, especially considering that entire Cavs team and crowd took after his lead.

I feel horrible leaving Durant off, but it's clear he didn't have his playoff reps and it'd be just as hard taking off Dwight, so w/e. KD will make plenty of POY lists I'm sure.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The more I think about how LeBron maintained himself in the playoffs, the more I'm thinking of really hammering him in the POY rankings. I think people will strongly question some of those picks, particularly Nash, but man, Nash played his heart out. Wade will definitely be over LeBron as well.

[semi-sentient]

I was incredibly dissappointed with Lebron in game 5. Other than that, I think he had a good series. That game six loss wasn't his fault. He dragged that team to within a few points in the fourth with very little help. I'll criticize his game 5, but that's about it.

What do you think about all the "where will LeBron play next season" distractions? Also, regarding Game 6, his team looked dead after they saw him not bring it in Game 5. Players and coaches were questioning him. I think he has to knocked for displaying poor leadership and for the drama surrounding the Cavs. His numbers were still very good, but is POY all about numbers?

Additionally, I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks about every commentator and analyst calling Kobe the best player throughout the playoffs? How many times did we hear "that's the difference between Kobe and LeBron" type comments? How does that factor in? Does it even matter?

[Sedale Threatt]

No one on the Celtics gained in reputation these last years more than Doc. Interesting how I guy can look so flawed with bad players and so smart with good players.

Well, I didn't even think he was all that great even after 2008. Didn't seem like anything more than K.C. Jones 2.0. Came up with a nice catchphrase, and that was about it.

This year, though, I was highly impressed with the way he managed this team through age/injuries and fostered their peak in the playoffs. Hell, they were this close to breaking up the team midseason with Ray Allen on the trading block. Then you had Rondo's contract situation, allegations of internal strife, the aforementioned physical frailties, playing their last three series without homecourt, etc.

That's a LOT to deal with, and Rivers handled it all with aplomb. Plus, other than some of his sour grapes after Game 7 -- understandable -- I got to appreciate his personality as well. I wish him well in whatever he chooses to do next year.

[Doctor MJ]

The more I think about how LeBron maintained himself in the playoffs, the more I'm thinking of really hammering him in the POY rankings.

Wow, wondering if people are overreacting. Not sure if LeBron will be my #1 or not, but that upset loss to the Celtics looked a lot more damning when the Celtics were a 50 win team that had been playing .500 ball since late December. Losing to a team with 4 of the best 5 guys on the court and who eventually got to a tight game 7 on the road for the championship really ain't that big of a deal.

Nash is my favorite player, I've been arguing for him in debates for years, and I don't know how I could rank him ahead of LeBron this year.

[JordansBulls]

I don't mind having Kobe 1st for 2010, but if he is 1st then Gasol needs to be top 5 as well. How can you justify not having Gasol top 5 if Kobe is #1 when Gasol led the team in both PER and Win Shares on the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Now if you are going to have Kobe 3rd or 4th or something like that, then I can understand not having Gasol on the top 5 list.

[sp6r=underrated]

I don't mind having Kobe 1st for 2010, but if he is 1st then Gasol needs to be top 5 as well. How can you justify not having Gasol top 5 if Kobe is #1 when Gasol led the team in both PER and Win Shares on the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Now if you are going to have Kobe 3rd or 4th or something like that, then I can understand not having Gasol on the top 5 list.

1. You really need to start analyzing stats rather than just looking them up and need to stop limiting your statistical analysis to what you can find on B-R.
2. You have to explain, if you are going to have 2 lakers in the top 5, why the lakers with a supporting cast of Bynum, Odom and Artest were so mediocre for a champion. If they really had two top 5 players, plus their supporting casts they would have won 65+.

[JordansBulls]

I don't mind having Kobe 1st for 2010, but if he is 1st then Gasol needs to be top 5 as well. How can you justify not having Gasol top 5 if Kobe is #1 when Gasol led the team in both PER and Win Shares on the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Now if you are going to have Kobe 3rd or 4th or something like that, then I can understand not having Gasol on the top 5 list.

1. You really need to start analyzing stats rather than just looking them up and need to stop limiting your statistical analysis to what you can find on B-R.
2. You have to explain, if you are going to have 2 lakers in the top 5, why the lakers with a supporting cast of Bynum, Odom and Artest were so mediocre for a champion. If they really had two top 5 players, plus their supporting casts they would have won 65+.

Kobe missed like 10 games and Gasol missed like 15 games. Just like the 2001 Lakers where both Shaq and Kobe missed 15 games each.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't mind having Kobe 1st for 2010, but if he is 1st then Gasol needs to be top 5 as well. How can you justify not having Gasol top 5 if Kobe is #1 when Gasol led the team in both PER and Win Shares on the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares and Rebounding?

Now if you are going to have Kobe 3rd or 4th or something like that, then I can understand not having Gasol on the top 5 list.

Getting a top 5 spot isn't a reward to be given out for being outstanding on the title team. Gasol's not going to be in my top 5 not because he is unworthy of being in the top 5, but simply because competition this year is fierce.

[JordansBulls]

Anyone think it would be better once we get to the 70's with the NBA and ABA to combine them together across leagues? Or do you think it is better to have a year like 1976 as NBA and then do one for 1976 as ABA?

[sp6r=underrated]

My understanding was that this was a settled issues. We will be combining the two leagues for the years the ABA is in existence.

[ronnymac2]

I was incredibly dissappointed with Lebron in game 5. Other than that, I think he had a good series. That game six loss wasn't his fault. He dragged that team to within a few points in the fourth with very little help. I'll criticize his game 5, but that's about it.

What do you think about all the "where will LeBron play next season" distractions? Also, regarding Game 6, his team looked dead after they saw him not bring it in Game 5. Players and coaches were questioning him. I think he has to knocked for displaying poor leadership and for the drama surrounding the Cavs. His numbers were still very good, but is POY all about numbers?

Additionally, I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks about every commentator and analyst calling Kobe the best player throughout the playoffs? How many times did we hear "that's the difference between Kobe and LeBron" type comments? How does that factor in? Does it even matter?

I don't think the free agent discussion was a factor. Lebron seemed pretty focused in that regard. That's more the media- that is their role.

Lebron brought it in game 6. He brought it in games 1-4, and all season long before that. I understand that Lebron is probably the leader of his team, but if his team is that mentally weak where they need him to that extent, something is wrong with them. I mean....these guys are adults. They have to man up, take responsibility for their own role, and do their job at some point. It is good for a team to have leaders, but everybody has to be a leader to some extent. It can't just be a bunch of sheep. I don't think Lebron should be blamed twice for game 5 just because of that. Especially since he is the only one who showed up in game 6.

As for the announcers....that's up to the voter. I would just hope that no matter what the announcer said, the voter will think critically about it.

[Gongxi]

So guys, re: '09-10 POY. I'm thinking of doing it June 28th to July 5th, Monday to Monday. This seems like a good plan because it will give some time to ruminate, won't go too far into summer, and won't overlap over a break in voting.

If there's enough push back against using the holiday weekend, then I'll probably make that weekend another break from all voting, and start the '09-10 POY on the 5th.

Let me know your thoughts.

I'm not sure it needs a whole week. I mean, people have been talking about who the best player is all season long, over multiple threads, yes?

My ranking would be:

1- LeBron James
2- Dwyane Wade
3- Kobe Bryant
4- Kevin Durant
5- Dwight Howard

I'd highly, highly doubt anyone could post anything I haven't already heard regarding them in the span of that week.

[ItsMillerTime]

Im thinking mine will be

1. Dwade
2. LBJ
3. Nash
4. Durant
5. Howard

HM: Gasol, Dirk, Kobe, Dwill, Roy

[JordansBulls]

Im thinking mine will be

1. Dwade
2. LBJ
3. Nash
4. Durant
5. Howard

HM: Gasol, Dirk, Kobe, Dwill, Roy

How in the world can Nash be on the list and not Kobe?

[JordansBulls]

1981 is going to be interesting. Dr J won league mvp, however IIRC was up 3-1 on Boston and Boston came back and won the last 3 games by 2, 2 and 1 including game 7 at the Garden.

Also Kareem finished 3rd in MVP voting and Moses Malone 4th, but the Lakers lost in round 1 to Moses Malone's team that was below .500.