James Harden is a superstar

[Rapcity_11]

Ok, if you want to say something like that then I'll just say that Harden had a big game against ATL because it was his second game. No teams had game planned him yet at the time.

Teams were incapable of game-planning for him because? He was just doing the sames things he did for OKC just with a bigger load.

As the season has progressed, more teams have game planned for him and now Harden is struggling and being defended well by most teams, even the bad ones like the Pistons.

Struggling? Sometimes, sure. Like any star on a poor team would. He's also had multiple other good games.

Harden played very average in that 2nd Pistons game, game-planning and adjusting couldn't have been the difference, could it?

Partially, sure. Luck/variance also played a role, as it did in the first game.

I guess you didn't read the part where I said this Bulls team is different than the Bulls team in 2011 and 2012 because of their completely new bench.

You must have also missed how Derrick Rose is an underrated defender and he is out for the season.

I suggest you actually read posts before responding, maybe you'll cool off too because you sound dense.

No, I read that. It just makes little sense. The core group is still very similar. Losing Asik and Brewer hurts for sure, however they were pretty low minute players. Also, Harden played mostly against starters...

Also, if you think going from Rose to Hinrich makes any kind of significant defensive difference, you are way off. PG's just don't make that kind of impact. Let alone similar caliber defenders like Rose and Hinrich.

Nope, Deng always allows big games to star players he defends like Durant, Kobe, Melo, Lebron, etc. Deng is nothing special when it comes to man to man, it is what it is.

Any factual support for this?

Of course, I would expect a huge Harden supporter like yourself to deny it because you want to make sure that Harden is considered great and actually accomplished something great tonight.

Actually my opinions on Deng have nothing to do with Harden. I've always considered him a great defender.

Additionally, man defense isn't all that important when defending Harden because he uses picks so often. The schemes/rotations teams use are more important.

[OptimusOne6]

Struggling? Sometimes, sure. Like any star on a poor team would. He's also had multiple other good games.

Yes, against weak/inferior competition.

No, I read that. It just makes little sense. The core group is still very similar. Losing Asik and Brewer hurts for sure, however they were pretty low minute players. Also, Harden played mostly against starters...

You act as if losing Asik and Brewer is not big deal especially with their replacements. Brewer was the best perimeter defender on the Bulls imo and Asik is a legit defensive anchor as we see now. Losing those two coming off the bench is a huge blow especially when their replacements are weak and don't even come close to those two defensively.

It is why the Bulls are no longer one of the best defensive teams, although still top 10/very good.

Coaching is the most important for great defenses but personnel matters as well.

Harden would not have produced as well tonight had he been covered by Deng and Brewer all game opposed to Deng and some other scrub. He would not have produced as well with both Asik and Noah alterating between who anchors the paint too.

Any factual support for this?

You can go look up their games last season vs. Deng and the Bulls because they all dominated him.

Feel free to post factual support as to how Deng is a good man to man defender though.

Actually my opinions on Deng have nothing to do with Harden. I've always considered him a great defender.

Additionally, man defense isn't all that important when defending Harden because he uses picks so often. The schemes/rotations teams use are more important.

Ok, then in this case it would be because he took advantage of Boozer in the paint or Boozer defending the pick and roll and Boozer is the worst pick and roll defender and the worst overall defender in the league.

Not sure what is so confusing. Harden dominated a matchup tonight against the Bulls that was in his favor. Some players and teams matchup better than others.

[Rapcity_11]

Yes, against weak/inferior competition.

I suggest you look up how stars typically perform against good/bad defenses. The results are pretty intuitive.

You act as if losing Asik and Brewer is not big deal especially with their replacements. Brewer was the best perimeter defender on the Bulls imo and Asik is a legit defensive anchor as we see now. Losing those two coming off the bench is a huge blow especially when their replacements are weak and don't even come close to those two defensively.

It hurts for sure, as I've said. However Jimmy Butler is getting more minutes and is a capable defender.

It is why the Bulls are no longer one of the best defensive teams, although still top 10/very good.

Where do you expect the Bulls to finish in Drtg? Around 10? No higher?

Feel free to post factual support as to how Deng is a good man to man defender though.

Generally when somebody makes an assertion that is abnormal it's up to them to back it up.

Ok, then in this case it would be because he took advantage of Boozer in the paint or Boozer defending the pick and roll and Boozer is the worst pick and roll defender and the worst overall defender in the league.

1. Bargnani is far worse.
2. Boozer played 25 minutes and was only a -5.
3. Thibs is too smart to simply stand by and leave Boozer on an island consistently.

Not sure what is so confusing. Harden dominated a matchup tonight against the Bulls that was in his favor. Some players and teams matchup better than others.

Not sure what's so confusing to you. You're trying to diminish Harden's performance by calling a match-up against a great all-around defensive team as in his favour. Why don't all PnR guards kill the Bulls?

[OptimusOne6]

It hurts for sure, as I've said. However Jimmy Butler is getting more minutes and is a capable defender.

Jimmy is young and inexperienced and not as good as Brewer. They also never addressed Asik's replacement, at least they don't play his replacement much (Nazr Mohammed). It then leads Gibson and Boozer getting time at Center and neither have any business playing Center especially Boozer.

Where do you expect the Bulls to finish in Drtg? Around 10? No higher?

Around 10, possibly up to 5, but certainly as high in 2011 or 2012.

Generally when somebody makes an assertion that is abnormal it's up to them to back it up.

I did back it up, I told you to check KD, Lebron, and Melo's stats vs. him. They all performed very well. We all know Lebron owns Deng and the Bulls anyways.

1. Bargnani is far worse.
2. Boozer played 25 minutes and was only a -5.
3. Thibs is too smart to simply stand by and leave Boozer on an island consistently.

1.) I would say Boozer is worse than Bargnani but they're both terrible so whatever.

2.) What does raw +/- have anything to do with anything? Horrible stat to use especially when talking about defense.

3.) He did in the 2011 ECF. The Heat kept picking on Boozer with the pick and roll and the Heat killed the Bulls because of that. You can comment if you saw tonight's game, I didn't see much of it so I can't make too much of an assertion.

Not sure what's so confusing to you. You're trying to diminish Harden's performance by calling a match-up against a great all-around defensive team as in his favour. Why don't all PnR guards kill the Bulls?

Which PnR players don't?

In the past 4 games before the Rockets game, the Bulls played the Celtics, Suns, Clippers, and Blazers.

All of the PnR guards played well. All of their PFs played well too which is more indication that Boozer is a complete joke on that end.

[tsherkin]

1.) I would say Boozer is worse than Bargnani but they're both terrible so whatever.

You would be wrong. At a minimum, Boozer is a good defensive rebounder. Both are godawful defenders, but Bargs doesn't even hit the defensive boards and has the worst combination of effort and awareness I've seen in a big, basically ever. Boozer at least makes more of an effort, but is undersized, not very athletic and occasionally lazy.

3.) He did in the 2011 ECF. The Heat kept picking on Boozer with the pick and roll and the Heat killed the Bulls because of that. You can comment if you saw tonight's game, I didn't see much of it so I can't make too much of an assertion.

Yes, and Boozer is a weak link, but in deference, they have three BRUTALLY effective PnR players, yes? Not every team has that kind of talent.

All of the PnR guards played well. All of their PFs played well too which is more indication that Boozer is a complete joke on that end.

So, not to diminish your point but rather to form the basis for a dialogue, what do you require Harden to do in order to say he's playing well? As specifically as possible, and being mindful of team context and how that affects a player's performance?

[OptimusOne6]

So, not to diminish your point but rather to form the basis for a dialogue, what do you require Harden to do in order to say he's playing well? As specifically as possible, and being mindful of team context and how that affects a player's performance?

I think Harden is playing well. I just don't think Harden is a superstar like the thread title and some others here have suggested. Superstar must be an incredibly loose term for you guys if you think Harden is one. A superstar is usually a top 6-8 player in the league and Harden is not that good, and I personally don't think he'll ever be that good.

Harden is an all-star talent though, just not a superstar one.

[tsherkin]

I think Harden is playing well. I just don't think Harden is a superstar like the thread title and some others here have suggested.

I agree with that point, I've been arguing he wasn't a superstar since bast started the thread. But the dialog has shifted to "Harden sux," basically, so several of us have been trying to dispel that garbage.

[MisterWestside]

I agree with that point, I've been arguing he wasn't a superstar since bast started the thread. But the dialog has shifted to "Harden sux," basically, so several of us have been trying to dispel that garbage.

Yup, he hasn't sucked all things considered. But I do find it interesting that the guy went from a +/- champion and superstar in the making to a more average player with the role shift. It seems that there are extremes on both ends with Harden. SSS still with 12 games played so far, though.

[tsherkin]

Can't say I'm surprised; Houston has sucked ass on offense to the nth degree apart from Harden. Lin isn't 100% as had shot terribly, and the rest of the team started out in a giant slump to begin the season. It's hard to thrive in such a situation.

[fallacy]

I think Harden is playing well. I just don't think Harden is a superstar like the thread title and some others here have suggested.

No one thinks that Harden is a superstar, no one. The discussion has turned into a debate if Harden can be an effective and efficient first option.

[Dr Positivity]

I believe he is a superstar

[tsherkin]

I believe he is a superstar

On what basis?

[Dr Positivity]

I have Harden in the Carmelo, Deron, Rondo, Westbrook, Love. Those guys aren't real MVP contenders like Lebron or Durant, but I consider them superstars. IMO Harden > Westbrook. So if Westbrook is a clear cut superstar in label so is Harden for me

[Krodis]

I agree with that point, I've been arguing he wasn't a superstar since bast started the thread. But the dialog has shifted to "Harden sux," basically, so several of us have been trying to dispel that garbage.

Yup, he hasn't sucked all things considered. But I do find it interesting that the guy went from a +/- champion and superstar in the making to a more average player with the role shift. It seems that there are extremes on both ends with Harden. SSS still with 12 games played so far, though.

He's still doing well in +/-, and putting up 24.5 on .570 TS%. (And would probably be near 27 PPG if you take out the flu game). I don't know by who's standards that's "average".

[tsherkin]

I have Harden in the Carmelo, Deron, Rondo, Westbrook, Love. Those guys aren't real MVP contenders like Lebron or Durant, but I consider them superstars. IMO Harden > Westbrook. So if Westbrook is a clear cut superstar in label so is Harden for me

Interesting. What criteria do you use to determine who is a superstar? Obviously not MVP contention or media presence, so what is it that lets you think someone like, say, Westbrook or Deron is a superstar?

[JordansBulls]

Can't say I'm surprised; Houston has sucked ass on offense to the nth degree apart from Harden. Lin isn't 100% as had shot terribly, and the rest of the team started out in a giant slump to begin the season. It's hard to thrive in such a situation.

From going to the game on Wednesday I would say it is better if Houston started Douglas over Lin.

[tsherkin]

From going to the game on Wednesday I would say it is better if Houston started Douglas over Lin.

Lin isn't healthy and Douglas is only useful on O if he does nothing but spot-up from 3. Which has its value, and we still don't know Lin's true value. The last few games, not-Harden players on Houston have been showing life, so we'll see. As long as Douglas isn't permitted to dribble, it seems like a good switch for now.

[OptimusOne6]

No one thinks that Harden is a superstar, no one. The discussion has turned into a debate if Harden can be an effective and efficient first option.

I think he'll be similar to what Joe Johnson was in ATL.

I don't think he'll ever be as good overall and as well rounded as Joe was but I think he could be a better first option/offensive player than him.

Harden is a top 20-25 player in the league and Johnson was a top 20-25 player in the league when was in his prime in ATL as well.

[Rapcity_11]

I have Harden in the Carmelo, Deron, Rondo, Westbrook, Love. Those guys aren't real MVP contenders like Lebron or Durant, but I consider them superstars. IMO Harden > Westbrook. So if Westbrook is a clear cut superstar in label so is Harden for me

Interesting. What criteria do you use to determine who is a superstar? Obviously not MVP contention or media presence, so what is it that lets you think someone like, say, Westbrook or Deron is a superstar?

There really is no consensus criteria on superstar at all. Heck, I'm not even sure what I think superstars are.

If we were going to restrict it to a small group I'd have:
Lebron
KD
Paul
Dwight
Kobe (Awesome this year so far)
And maybe Wade (I really have no idea who he is right now though)

[MisterWestside]

He's still doing well in +/-, and putting up 24.5 on .570 TS%. (And would probably be near 27 PPG if you take out the flu game). I don't know by who's standards that's "average".

The Rockets are playing better with him off the court than with him (mainly on offense). Perhpas you're going by xRAPM here, but who knows what Englemann is doing with that stat nowadays. And a 108 ortg/29 usg split is "more average" (my original words) than anything he posted in OKC (adjusted for '13 defenses).

I agree with you actually; Harden's played above-average all things considered. I was mainly showing how you could think otherwise if you took the numbers at face value, especially when comparing Rockets Harden to OKC Harden.