The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[thizznation]

Shaq is pretty easily a top 3 player for me, if he held himself to a more respectable standard as opposed to being a goof ball, prima dona and often times a traitor (from perspective of Orlando and even LA fans), then I think his career would be looked at with more prestige then it currently does. For a player of Shaq's caliber, some people kinda give you a funny look when you call him one of the goats before they remember what he did. People just use the word catch phrase dominant instead of saying great for some reason when describing him.

It was a title given to him by his fans who wanted to keep the MJ guys off their back.

[JulesWinnfield]

Oh I love Hillary Clinton, LeBron James, and Steph Curry so it's tough for me to relate. I am incredibly excited right now for the visit to the white house next year though.

Not that you or anyone cares about my rooting interest but just to be clear I'm absolutely rooting for the Cavs. Didn't mean to imply I was personally one of those people who were in the predicament we were discussing, just mentioning it must be a rough spot for them as you stated

Oh...I thought you were rooting for Curry to win it all. I remember you saying he's your absolutely new favorite player during the season no? Sorry if I am wrong on that...

For me personally I don't care either way. I expect GSW in 5-6 but don't really care either way who wins. I'll just hope for some good, enjoyable ball.

I did say that. He's pretty much right there with Lebron for me. There is no real separation from the standpoint of who my favorite player is. For me "favorite" and "favorite to watch" are kind of inseparable, so my favorite player at any given moment will be the one who brings me the most entertainment value (and that is often the best player in the league at any given time). I'm just a fan of watching greatness. The tiebreaker here pushing me toward rooting for the Cavs is I just hate the developing storyline of Lebron and the finals losses. I find it both unfortunate and unfair to him and I don't want to see more ammo. A warrior win wouldn't peeve me the same way losses to the Spurs did, but I'd like to see him add another chip

[PCProductions]

I definitely agree with Nate Duncan on the fact that Lebron is going to have to dominate this Finals defensively. Do you guys think he has it in him to do so?

[The High Cyde]

As long as Kyrie is scoring 25 or so on good efficiency and Kevin is a 20+ ppg 12+ rpg threat, he should have enough energy to dominate defensively.
Easier said than done though.
Gonna listen to that pod in a bit, haven't heard a Dunc'd On pod in about a year haha

[gothehornets]

I definitely agree with Nate Duncan on the fact that Lebron is going to have to dominate this Finals defensively. Do you guys think he has it in him to do so?

not likely he has too much offensive responsibilties

[MyUniBroDavis]

I definitely agree with Nate Duncan on the fact that Lebron is going to have to dominate this Finals defensively. Do you guys think he has it in him to do so?

Absolutely.

[JVL]

I definitely agree with Nate Duncan on the fact that Lebron is going to have to dominate this Finals defensively. Do you guys think he has it in him to do so?

not likely he has too much offensive responsibilties

I disagree. He's the floor general, but with a healthy Kyrie and Love he has the luxury of being less involved on offense and turning more to defense which he absolutely has to anchor.

Without a performance for the ages by Lebron on the defensive end, the Cavaliers are in for a rough ride.

I would put my money on the Warriors, but I wouldn't invest too much.

[ceiling raiser]

Not trying to concern troll at all, but...

How is Love playable in this series? Admittedly I haven't watched a ton of Cleveland this season (have seen more of them in the playoffs), but I don't see how Cleveland can be competitive if he's playing more than 20 minutes a night because of the PnR defense.

Nate Duncan mentioned that maybe you go to that Love at center lineup a bit (I think from the Christmas game?), but what if GS goes small for more than half the game?

[Quotatious]

Not trying to concern troll at all, but...

How is Love playable in this series? Admittedly I haven't watched a ton of Cleveland this season (have seen more of them in the playoffs), but I don't see how Cleveland can be competitive if he's playing more than 20 minutes a night because of the PnR defense.

Nate Duncan mentioned that maybe you go to that Love at center lineup a bit (I think from the Christmas game?), but what if GS goes small for more than half the game?

I don't think Love's defense will be nearly as big of an issue as you believe, if he can just improve his shooting percentage inside the arc to about 45%, while maintaining 40+% from beyond it. Basically he just has to be a big factor offensively. He has to average 20 ppg on really good percentages, or at least close to that. He has to do what people expected him to do when he joined the Cavs in summer of 2014. Everybody knew he's not a factor defensively, many thought he was bad, but he absolutely has to play well offensively, that's an absolute must.

I look at Love in a similar way as I looked at Amar'e on the mid/late 2000s Suns - if he's producing big numbers offensively, then his bad defense doesn't hurt his team that much, but if he struggles offensively...He's a really big detriment to his team.

[Dr Spaceman]

Not trying to concern troll at all, but...

How is Love playable in this series? Admittedly I haven't watched a ton of Cleveland this season (have seen more of them in the playoffs), but I don't see how Cleveland can be competitive if he's playing more than 20 minutes a night because of the PnR defense.

Nate Duncan mentioned that maybe you go to that Love at center lineup a bit (I think from the Christmas game?), but what if GS goes small for more than half the game?

I don't think Love's defense will be nearly as big of an issue as you believe, if he can just improve his shooting percentage inside the arc to about 45%, while maintaining 40+% from beyond it. Basically he just has to be a big factor offensively. He has to average 20 ppg on really good percentages, or at least close to that. He has to do what people expected him to do when he joined the Cavs in summer of 2014. Everybody knew he's not a factor defensively, many thought he was bad, but he absolutely has to play well offensively, that's an absolute must.

I look at Love in a similar way as I looked at Amar'e on the mid/late 2000s Suns - if he's producing big numbers offensively, then his bad defense doesn't hurt his team that much, but if he struggles offensively...He's a really big detriment to his team.

I disagree strongly. Curry scored 9 straight points in game 7 from just getting Adams to switch on him and then destroying him in isolation, and Steven Adams may be the most mobile defensive big in the whole league. GSW attacks slow bigs more ruthlessly than anything attacks anything (sorry analogies aren't really working for me right now).

Here are Kanter's minute totals as the series went on:

18
16
18

...

8
6
9
10

The series was over once Curry started playing like Curry and OKC smartly just pinned Kanter to the bench during every second half. Kanter may be a better defensive player than current Love, FWIW.

To fpliii, GSW is an exceptionally weak rebounding team (surprisingly especially so when Bogut plays) so that's a way Love could make himself useful. Unfortunately he hasn't done that in years, so I'm not sure he does anything redeeming that justifies him getting minutes other than the fact that *someone* has to play. Frye isn't great either but as a pure shooting option he's quicker on the draw and more consistent.

It will be interesting to see how Kerr handles lineups in this series. He was way to conservative for my liking against OKC (I advocated for Iggy to start after G3) but it worked in that the death lineup finally found its way. Cleveland I think is a lot more of a known quantity, so I wonder if he might consider going small from the opening tip in G1. Would be fascinating to see how quickly the plug is pulled in Love or whether he can hang with the death lineup. Also would be an easy way to get Iguodala matched up with LeBron minutes-wise.

[Dr Spaceman]

Oh also one more thing to add: Love will be able to do nothing offensively against Draymond. He can't post him up at all and Draymond is way too athletic. He will be a big negative in this series IMO.

[tsherkin]

Oh also one more thing to add: Love will be able to do nothing offensively against Draymond. He can't post him up at all and Draymond is way too athletic. He will be a big negative in this series IMO.

I bet you a dollar this is inaccurate.

Draymond's defense only matters if he isn't helping out somewhere else; if Love is alone in the corner, then it won't matter, and if he's helping on a Lebron dive cut, same deal. Etc, etc, etc.

[Ancalagon]

Not trying to concern troll at all, but...

How is Love playable in this series? Admittedly I haven't watched a ton of Cleveland this season (have seen more of them in the playoffs), but I don't see how Cleveland can be competitive if he's playing more than 20 minutes a night because of the PnR defense.

Nate Duncan mentioned that maybe you go to that Love at center lineup a bit (I think from the Christmas game?), but what if GS goes small for more than half the game?

I don't think Love's defense will be nearly as big of an issue as you believe, if he can just improve his shooting percentage inside the arc to about 45%, while maintaining 40+% from beyond it. Basically he just has to be a big factor offensively. He has to average 20 ppg on really good percentages, or at least close to that. He has to do what people expected him to do when he joined the Cavs in summer of 2014. Everybody knew he's not a factor defensively, many thought he was bad, but he absolutely has to play well offensively, that's an absolute must.

I look at Love in a similar way as I looked at Amar'e on the mid/late 2000s Suns - if he's producing big numbers offensively, then his bad defense doesn't hurt his team that much, but if he struggles offensively...He's a really big detriment to his team.

I disagree strongly. Curry scored 9 straight points in game 7 from just getting Adams to switch on him and then destroying him in isolation, and Steven Adams may be the most mobile defensive big in the whole league. GSW attacks slow bigs more ruthlessly than anything attacks anything (sorry analogies aren't really working for me right now).

Here are Kanter's minute totals as the series went on:

18
16
18

...

8
6
9
10

The series was over once Curry started playing like Curry and OKC smartly just pinned Kanter to the bench during every second half. Kanter may be a better defensive player than current Love, FWIW.

To fpliii, GSW is an exceptionally weak rebounding team (surprisingly especially so when Bogut plays) so that's a way Love could make himself useful. Unfortunately he hasn't done that in years, so I'm not sure he does anything redeeming that justifies him getting minutes other than the fact that *someone* has to play. Frye isn't great either but as a pure shooting option he's quicker on the draw and more consistent.

It will be interesting to see how Kerr handles lineups in this series. He was way to conservative for my liking against OKC (I advocated for Iggy to start after G3) but it worked in that the death lineup finally found its way. Cleveland I think is a lot more of a known quantity, so I wonder if he might consider going small from the opening tip in G1. Would be fascinating to see how quickly the plug is pulled in Love or whether he can hang with the death lineup. Also would be an easy way to get Iguodala matched up with LeBron minutes-wise.

I agree with everything in this post except Kanter being better than ANYONE defensively.

[tsherkin]

To fpliii, GSW is an exceptionally weak rebounding team (surprisingly especially so when Bogut plays) so that's a way Love could make himself useful. Unfortunately he hasn't done that in years,

That is not really accurate, though, is it? His OFFENSIVE rebounding has certainly declined as he has taken more to the 3pt shot, but at the same time, what's he doing on the glass at the other end?

In the regular season? 28.4% DRB. Very good. In the playoffs? 28.0% DRB.

So again, he's doing a fantastic job on the DEFENSIVE glass, he just isn't killing it on the OFFENSIVE glass while being stationed out at the 3pt line most of the time. Surprise, surprise.

Pays to keep in mind the split between ORB/DRB when you're looking at rebounding value. Remember, you're talking about a guy who is averaging 9.6 rpg in 32.5 mpg, or 10.6 REB36, while barely hitting the offensive glass. 7.7 drpg (8.5 DRB36) is actually quite good.

In the RS, that 28.4% DRB was good for 8th in the entire league, even for various minutes-limited individuals. That's pretty impressive, so you're (probably unintentionally) downplaying what he's doing for the Cavs as a rebounder.

[Dr Spaceman]

To fpliii, GSW is an exceptionally weak rebounding team (surprisingly especially so when Bogut plays) so that's a way Love could make himself useful. Unfortunately he hasn't done that in years,

That is not really accurate, though, is it? His OFFENSIVE rebounding has certainly declined as he has taken more to the 3pt shot, but at the same time, what's he doing on the glass at the other end?

In the regular season? 28.4% DRB. Very good. In the playoffs? 28.0% DRB.

So again, he's doing a fantastic job on the DEFENSIVE glass, he just isn't killing it on the OFFENSIVE glass while being stationed out at the 3pt line most of the time. Surprise, surprise.

Pays to keep in mind the split between ORB/DRB when you're looking at rebounding value. Remember, you're talking about a guy who is averaging 9.6 rpg in 32.5 mpg, or 10.6 REB36, while barely hitting the offensive glass. 7.7 drpg (8.5 DRB36) is actually quite good.

In the RS, that 28.4% DRB was good for 8th in the entire league, even for various minutes-limited individuals. That's pretty impressive, so you're (probably unintentionally) downplaying what he's doing for the Cavs as a rebounder.

Didn't make it clear, but I was referring to offensive rebounding. That's where OKC really gave GSW hell, and where an older version of Love might have as well.

Love's defensive rebounding is nice, but I don't look at it as a major influence in the series or place where he can hurt the Warriors (they were 19th in the RS).

[tsherkin]

Didn't make it clear, but I was referring to offensive rebounding. That's where OKC really gave GSW hell, and where an older version of Love might have as well.

Sure, but that's not on Love, that's on how he's used. If you're 23, 24 feet from the basket, your offensive rebounding can be only so good, of course. He's not a center, he's a PF most of the time, so when he's a PF, there's no offensive rebounding happening. WHen he's a C, he shows he can still do it, but you don't want him there because he's a slower, shorter, less athletic dude who doesn't provide rim protection, so that's a defensive liability enabled for small-ball offense where he's opening up the paint for that Lebron dive cut to go nutters against a small-ball opponent.

Love's defensive rebounding is nice, but I don't look at it as a major influence in the series or place where he can hurt the Warriors (they were 19th in the RS).

Right, but is IS important to note because the Cavs were the 5th-best defensive rebounding team in the league during the RS, and being able to shut down an offensive possession with a defensive board, particularly with a guy who throws a good outlet pass, can key the fast break and thus lead to offensive opportunities.

[Dr Spaceman]

Didn't make it clear, but I was referring to offensive rebounding. That's where OKC really gave GSW hell, and where an older version of Love might have as well.

Sure, but that's not on Love, that's on how he's used. If you're 23, 24 feet from the basket, your offensive rebounding can be only so good, of course. He's not a center, he's a PF most of the time, so when he's a PF, there's no offensive rebounding happening. WHen he's a C, he shows he can still do it, but you don't want him there because he's a slower, shorter, less athletic dude who doesn't provide rim protection, so that's a defensive liability enabled for small-ball offense where he's opening up the paint for that Lebron dive cut to go nutters against a small-ball opponent.

Sure. I'm not trying to attack Love or say he's a bad player. His dramatic weight loss factors into this though, as well as his putrid finishing.

Love's defensive rebounding is nice, but I don't look at it as a major influence in the series or place where he can hurt the Warriors (they were 19th in the RS).

Right, but is IS important to note because the Cavs were the 5th-best defensive rebounding team in the league during the RS, and being able to shut down an offensive possession with a defensive board, particularly with a guy who throws a good outlet pass, can key the fast break and thus lead to offensive opportunities.[/quote]

Right but 1. I don't expect the Warriors to miss much when he's on the floor and 2. How close will he be to the basket guarding Dramond Green?

[kayess]

Oh also one more thing to add: Love will be able to do nothing offensively against Draymond. He can't post him up at all and Draymond is way too athletic. He will be a big negative in this series IMO.

I don't think he'll be able to do nothing - if he makes enough 3s that Draymond stays out of the paint, that's already a pretty big contribution.

But yeah, he'll probably be a big negative anyways and the Cavs get crushed.

[tsherkin]

Sure. I'm not trying to attack Love or say he's a bad player. His dramatic weight loss factors into this though, as well as his putrid finishing.

HIs finishing has been brutal, for sure. The weight loss, mmmm, maybe. I think it's more to do with the way he's used than anything else, personally. Post play is still touch, and you atrophy if you're not using that shot consistently. I'm sure having less weight doesn't HELP him, but it's not like he shed a whole pile of muscle, right? It helps only so much, particularly at the 4. He went from averaging 35.2% of his shots inside of 3 feet in Minny to 19.3% in Cleveland. That's not just from the weight loss, especially when the only two seasons of his career when 40%+ of his shots are coming from three are both seasons with the Cavs.

Right but 1. I don't expect the Warriors to miss much when he's on the floor and 2. How close will he be to the basket guarding Dramond Green?

Right, you're ragging on his defense, but that's going to happen on a finite number of possessions, and those possessions where they are not directly attacking him and shooting a theoretically very high percentage, that rebounding will still matter. Defensive rebounding distance to rim is less important, because the longer the shot, the longer the rebound as a general rule, so he'll still be in fine position.... as he's generally proven, all season long. He's faced stretch bigs before and hasn't had an issue with defensive rebounding, so this is sort of not the most important concern.

[Dupp]

I'm hoping love plays a lot of the 5.

Like others have said if he's gonna make his mark on the series it'll be on the defensive glass. If he dominate there like he has all year as well as knock down his threes at a good rate he'll be very valuable. The key is him being super aggressive and not turning to nothing like he did in Toronto games 3 and 4


Defensively how we keep him out of the pick n roll with Kyrie I have no clue.