2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[kayess]

Yes it's very weird to give credit Bron a lion's share of the credit for that. I mean tbf - Doc MJ iirc has used the inverse logic to criticize other players in the past so he's at least being consistent in his approach, which is understandable.

At the same time I think giving him no credit is also unfair - as is, fundamentally your success is a function of many people, and basketball's no different. I don't think LeBron has a Duncan like ability to rein in headcases, but it's entirely possible that just having a stronger personality and a clear pecking order was enough to send a "do not **** around, we are serious about not tolerating bull" policy loud and clear

On the MJ-Rodman comparison: IIRC thye kept around a guy who was there solely to rein in Rodman (his bff or something), so I don't think the situation's THAT comparable. He did say in the docu that he respected Mike and all that, and Mike didn't say nothing to him because he knew he would go out and compete once the game started

It's possible in the way that it's also possible LeBron took them all on a trip to the moon this offseason. Again Dwight lost 25 lbs before ever even trying out for the Lakers. Rondo is seen as the best teammate tons of guys have had outside of Ray Allen and Dallas. It's clearly not LeBron.

No, it's possible in the way that you're being an insufferable moron about this.

Doc MJ and the rest on the other end of the spectrum putting all the credit on LeBron is obviously pushing it. At the same time, if you think an individual's success is based purely, 100% on that individual's efforts then I would say you either have not experienced the real world yet, or are completely oblivious to its lessons (especially in a work setting).

Dwight being in shape hasn't been the problem with him for years, so just saying "DwIgHt LoSt 25 PoUnDs" over and over again isn't going to magically make it so. We know he's had problems playing within a team concept, demanding shots when it wasn't the best for the team, even when he was declining (see: post touches and not wanting to PNR with Nash, post touches in Houston, etc. etc.) We know leaders and strong personalities can help put guys like Dwight in line (e.g. Duncan with Stephen Jackson). Ergo, it's completely plausible the leaders on this team (Vogel included) would've had some part in this entire thing working out.

Also, though I didn't explicitly touch Rondo: ah yes, no-baggage, never called out teammates in public Rondo, never clashed publicly with his coach Rondo. That Rondo? If Rondo were 100% responsible for him performing well, I guess it was the fault of those other teammates and coaches when he completely **** sucked for some time. Lmao

[RCM88x]

There is a difference in guys coming to the realization that they're on their last legs and need to change to stay in the league, and actually doing it and being effective players again. Sure Dwight had a change of approach and started to take things more seriously this off season, but the fact he actually turned into a valuable player on a very good team for the entirety of the season is a whole other thing entirely. Same with Rondo, who was awful last season and for the majority of this past regular season. Suddenly comes back from injury in the playoffs with a completely different approach and elevated his team in a way he's not done in the past.

Does Lebron deserve credit for getting these guys to play drama-free together on a Finals favorite team? I think a little bit yes. Does he deserve all of the credit for the great mentality this team has had this season? No I don't think so.

Ultimately though, Lebron is the top guy on this team and like with all teams that had a clear cut top guy and culture setter, his approach ultimately is the most important. I think it's respectable of him to suddenly change gears this year and not stir things up in attempts to motivate himself or his team or the FO etc... But he really hasn't needed to do that either. Not sure if he would if they were in a bad spot, but in reality that sort of situation just hasn't manifested itself this season.

[E-Balla]

Yes it's very weird to give credit Bron a lion's share of the credit for that. I mean tbf - Doc MJ iirc has used the inverse logic to criticize other players in the past so he's at least being consistent in his approach, which is understandable.

At the same time I think giving him no credit is also unfair - as is, fundamentally your success is a function of many people, and basketball's no different. I don't think LeBron has a Duncan like ability to rein in headcases, but it's entirely possible that just having a stronger personality and a clear pecking order was enough to send a "do not **** around, we are serious about not tolerating bull" policy loud and clear

On the MJ-Rodman comparison: IIRC thye kept around a guy who was there solely to rein in Rodman (his bff or something), so I don't think the situation's THAT comparable. He did say in the docu that he respected Mike and all that, and Mike didn't say nothing to him because he knew he would go out and compete once the game started

It's possible in the way that it's also possible LeBron took them all on a trip to the moon this offseason. Again Dwight lost 25 lbs before ever even trying out for the Lakers. Rondo is seen as the best teammate tons of guys have had outside of Ray Allen and Dallas. It's clearly not LeBron.

No, it's possible in the way that you're being an insufferable moron about this.

Doc MJ and the rest on the other end of the spectrum putting all the credit on LeBron is obviously pushing it. At the same time, if you think an individual's success is based purely, 100% on that individual's efforts then I would say you either have not experienced the real world yet, or are completely oblivious to its lessons (especially in a work setting).

Dwight being in shape hasn't been the problem with him for years, so just saying "DwIgHt LoSt 25 PoUnDs" over and over again isn't going to magically make it so. We know he's had problems playing within a team concept, demanding shots when it wasn't the best for the team, even when he was declining (see: post touches and not wanting to PNR with Nash, post touches in Houston, etc. etc.) We know leaders and strong personalities can help put guys like Dwight in line (e.g. Duncan with Stephen Jackson). Ergo, it's completely plausible the leaders on this team (Vogel included) would've had some part in this entire thing working out.

Also, though I didn't explicitly touch Rondo: ah yes, no-baggage, never called out teammates in public Rondo, never clashed publicly with his coach Rondo. That Rondo? If Rondo were 100% responsible for him performing well, I guess it was the fault of those other teammates and coaches when he completely **** sucked for some time. Lmao

Dwight's weight loss was a result in a change in his mindset where he realized he wasn't only at risk of falling out of the league, which is again something that was obvious to you but wouldn't be obvious to a man averaging a double double with 30+ mpg while making 20 million, but that he had already fallen out of the league. How much of Melo's season do we attribute to Dame vs a change in his mindset? Personally I've never heard anyone give Dame even a little bit of credit for Melo's revival this year.

Again if there wasn't tons of evidence that Dwight hit rock bottom in the offseason and started to take things seriously you'd have a point, but instead what we saw this offseason was Dwight fall out the league and put the work in to get back on an NBA roster and into an NBA rotation.

And of course you avoided Rondo, outside of RealGM's general hatred of Rondo there's no reason to think he'd have an issue in LA. This is favorite player of HOF coaches Rondo. Favorite teammate of multiple HOFers (KG and PP) Rondo. Only person to stand up for the rookies when Jimmy and Dwyane split the Bulls locker room Rondo. The first person AD called after going to the Lakers (even before his family) Rondo. Ray Allen and the whole Mavericks organization are the only people with negative things to say about Rondo. He's well loved by everyone else for a reason and it's because he's a great teammate. Say what you want about him but everyone knows about playoff Rondo. Last time he was in the playoffs he won a series and led the postseason in APG. The time before that he had Chicago up 2-0 before getting hurt and they lost 4 straight without him. Rondo is proven in real life you don't need to validate him.

[E-Balla]

There is a difference in guys coming to the realization that they're on their last legs and need to change to stay in the league, and actually doing it and being effective players again. Sure Dwight had a change of approach and started to take things more seriously this off season, but the fact he actually turned into a valuable player on a very good team for the entirety of the season is a whole other thing entirely.

Is it? Did you ever doubt Dwight could play like this any time he wanted to and be great at it? How many future HOFers come to the realization they're falling out the league in their early 30s and can't put it together? Even Melo was able to transform into a serviceable player and he's nowhere near as talented as Dwight or physically capable.

Same with Rondo, who was awful last season and for the majority of this past regular season. Suddenly comes back from injury in the playoffs with a completely different approach and elevated his team in a way he's not done in the past.

In a way he's not done in the past? Bro Playoff Rondo has been a thing for a decade this is literally what he's done every year he's been on a good team outside of 2015 with Dallas.

Ultimately though, Lebron is the top guy on this team and like with all teams that had a clear cut top guy and culture setter, his approach ultimately is the most important. I think it's respectable of him to suddenly change gears this year and not stir things up in attempts to motivate himself or his team or the FO etc... But he really hasn't needed to do that either. Not sure if he would if they were in a bad spot, but in reality that sort of situation just hasn't manifested itself this season.

The Lakers are literally the oldest team in the league. It's a squad full of vets, mid 20s guys that had to prove themselves to stick in the league, and 2 superstars. Of course they're performing and showing a maturity beyond every other team in the league, they're old as hell. If this was something that always followed LeBron I'd agree (in reality this is by far the smoothest season he's had since probably 2013ish) or if he got someone like JR or Dion to screw their heads on right I'd agree. I think he doesn't really set the tone because there's no tone that needs to be set. LA gathered a group of guys with one goal and that's to win at all costs.

[Texas Chuck]

Dwight Howard even at this age remains a talented guy. And its not like he's even been that spectacular. Not sure all the angst trying to parse credit for him playing a role for the Lakers this year?

But my philosophy is the guy doing it always deserves the bulk of the credit even if he needed someone else to initially steer him in the right direction. I hate the whole Jordan made Pippen bull and so I have no real horse in the was it Lebron/was it it Rondo argument. Howard is still the guy one the court playing. Credit is primarily his regardless of what thinks of his previous flaws.

Other than that Occam's Razor tells us it's Lebron more than Rondo.

[Doctor MJ]

I think you have more faith in Dwight's ability to grow up right when he needs it than I do. I think he should have been looking at things like "this is my last chance" since he was in Atlanta. I don't think it's a coincidence that he bought in when joining the team of the most empowered superstar in the league who was also all-in on building a hard-working culture built around him.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Rondo woke up in the same context.

I'd say it's really the same type of thing we saw from Rodman on Jordan's team. Yes, Rodman was still a wild card, but looked at Jordan as his boss. I'm pretty dang sure that Howard & Rondo look at LeBron similarly. I mean consider the alternative: You think it's Vogel who has the magic spell? Pelinka? The Buss family? Nah.

I will say this though: Give an assist to Kobe's Laker success and, tragically, Kobe's death.

This is the kind of thing when evaluating players or leaders we really don’t know how big of an impact someone had.

Like really how much credit do we give to lebron? How much to the whole Lakers staff, AD, the team and of course Dwight himself? It all factors in im sure but how much credit do you give lebron? Maybe Dwight just legit grew up and thought I’ve been on trash teams nearly 10 years now this maybe my only shot to win a ring. I’m sure Vogel and bron had a chat with him but maybe that’s the same chat Lillard could have had with him if he joined Lillard on a legit contender.


At the same time the opposite is thrown around too. Like lebron made love worse. When in reality after the initial growing pains ( yes lebron deserves some blame here) the only decline in love was his play around the basket. That was almost certainly due to weight loss/injuries. He played there less of course because he was shooting a lot of threes but he was no welters near the force around the rim he once once.

If we want to be petty we could say kawhi made Paul George worse. In reality sometimes good players just get worse or don’t mesh and there’s no one else to blame. I’m sure bron would be getting killed if PG played this way next to him after how great he looked the next to Westbrook. Which is funny given all the criticism Westbrook gets.

How much credit do we give to LeBron? None. Like are y'all serious, did all of you forget what happened this offseason with Dwight? Forget about him coming out to publicly say he was changing his mindset because no one would sign him? Forget about his very highly publicized weight loss? Forget about him going to social media to try to get the Lakers to give him a chance to even try out?

Just because you personally think he should've realized he was talking out the league earlier doesn't mean he should've, especially as hard headed as Dwight is. I mean when you're still playing 30 mpg and getting $20 million contracts it's easy to think you're great. When Kyle O'Quinn is getting signed before you and getting signed for more money than you're being offered around the league it's different.

Like there were a billion stories like this:

Read on Twitter

All offseason, but it's LeBron? Y'all kill me.

Also @ Doc: Since when had Rondo been known for not showing up in the playoffs? One year in Dallas? His whole career outside of that he's been seen as nothing different from what he's been in LA. Like come on this is such a damn stretch here and just seems like an attempt to give LeBron credit for the Lakers professionalism as an organization as if they're not a veteran squad. Rondo is a 33 year old former champion known for being one of the smartest players in the game and best teammates in the league and he was that before LeBron was ever on his team.

Do you think it's a coincidence that a team like LeBron's Lakers is the one that finally gets the best out of Howard?
Do you think it just as likely that Howard would be like this on, say, the Kings?
Do you think that it was equally likely right now that Howard would be like this for the Lakers if Julius Randle were still the star there?

If you answered "No" to any of these things and you're not giving LeBron some credit here, I'd say you're being too rigid in how you look to give credit.

I also want to make really really clear I'm not saying "LeBron deserves all the credit and no one else deserves any credit for Dwight's come back, not even Dwight." That's silly, and again, that's rigid thinking. We're not talking about a binary situation, and we're not talking about a zero sum game.

Re: Since when Rondo known for not showing up in the playoffs? It's not about the playoffs, it's about how Rondo is every day. Rondo has clearly proven to be a guy who will blow off his job if he doesn't see the context around him as worthwhile. Yes, he tends to be better in the playoffs, that's part of the same trend.

[Doctor MJ]

Yes it's very weird to give credit Bron a lion's share of the credit for that. I mean tbf - Doc MJ iirc has used the inverse logic to criticize other players in the past so he's at least being consistent in his approach, which is understandable.

At the same time I think giving him no credit is also unfair - as is, fundamentally your success is a function of many people, and basketball's no different. I don't think LeBron has a Duncan like ability to rein in headcases, but it's entirely possible that just having a stronger personality and a clear pecking order was enough to send a "do not **** around, we are serious about not tolerating bull" policy loud and clear

On the MJ-Rodman comparison: IIRC thye kept around a guy who was there solely to rein in Rodman (his bff or something), so I don't think the situation's THAT comparable. He did say in the docu that he respected Mike and all that, and Mike didn't say nothing to him because he knew he would go out and compete once the game started

I just really want to emphasize here that if anyone thinks I'm using an overly simplistic rubric for credit assignment, you're confused. I go into far greater nuance here than the average analyst. If you're reading what I'm saying as a black & white thing, that's you defaulting to an over-simplistic mapping and projecting it on to me.

Note that I'm not assuming that you or anyone other particular person has a simpler internal analysis than I do, I'm just saying, if you look at my analysis and think "Oh another one of these guys...", you're making a bad assumption. My perspective here is frankly something pretty close to unique. Doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm not someone you can a label on so easily.

Re: Duncan-like ablity to rein in headcases. What? Duncan never had that ability. Go watch the '04 Olympics again. Notice how Duncan, despite being the best player on the team, basically had ZERO leadership ability.

The thing about "leading by doing" is that you only are successful in this capacity when people have already bought in. To be a truly great leader, you have to be proactive in your leading and mentoring, which LeBron has always tried to be, even back to his first stint in Cleveland.

And as I say that: I criticize LeBron for some things in his 2nd stint in Cleveland as a leader and for his first year in LA, but that shows what LeBron looks like when his attempts at leadership aren't working. He gets frustrated because he recognizes what's happening. What does Duncan do? Let someone else dominate the locker room and culture.

[E-Balla]

Do you think it's a coincidence that a team like LeBron's Lakers is the one that finally gets the best out of Howard?

In that it's a coincidence he fell out the league last offseason and not last offseason or next offseason, sure.

Do you think it just as likely that Howard would be like this on, say, the Kings?

100%. The same way Melo turned it around in Portland. It's not like this was something so far out the realm of what's possible for Dwight or something that's hard to do. When you're looking at not being in the league anymore it's easy to stop being a locker room distraction and act right. Especially when you have 5 baby mamas and need the money. It's also not like Dwight was terrible on the court prior to LA. He was still a starting C and getting his numbers even if overall he was an average starter at best on the court. He was just terrible in the locker room.

Do you think that it was equally likely right now that Howard would be like this for the Lakers if Julius Randle were still the star there?

I actually think in that case he'd be recognized as a leader a bit more similar to Deandre that half season he spent in NY. They were a terrible squad but Deandre was very impressive as a locker room vet.

If you answered "No" to any of these things and you're not giving LeBron some credit here, I'd say you're being too rigid in how you look to give credit.

I also want to make really really clear I'm not saying "LeBron deserves all the credit and no one else deserves any credit for Dwight's come back, not even Dwight." That's silly, and again, that's rigid thinking. We're not talking about a binary situation, and we're not talking about a zero sum game.

I think these guys are professional and saying this is similar to saying a coworker you work besides set the tone for you and your team. I mean it's a possibility but I find it more likely that Dwight actually did mature like what was reported this offseason. Again it's not like JR or Dion got their heads screwed on tight, they're still **** ups.

Re: Since when Rondo known for not showing up in the playoffs? It's not about the playoffs, it's about how Rondo is every day. Rondo has clearly proven to be a guy who will blow off his job if he doesn't see the context around him as worthwhile. Yes, he tends to be better in the playoffs, that's part of the same trend.

Do you not think Rondo is clearly playing harder and better than he did in the regular season this year? If so I don't see what makes this year different from the others, Rondo clearly blew off his job in the regular season too. Hell Rondo played with LeBron last year too where was this narrative then?

[E-Balla]

Yes it's very weird to give credit Bron a lion's share of the credit for that. I mean tbf - Doc MJ iirc has used the inverse logic to criticize other players in the past so he's at least being consistent in his approach, which is understandable.

At the same time I think giving him no credit is also unfair - as is, fundamentally your success is a function of many people, and basketball's no different. I don't think LeBron has a Duncan like ability to rein in headcases, but it's entirely possible that just having a stronger personality and a clear pecking order was enough to send a "do not **** around, we are serious about not tolerating bull" policy loud and clear

On the MJ-Rodman comparison: IIRC thye kept around a guy who was there solely to rein in Rodman (his bff or something), so I don't think the situation's THAT comparable. He did say in the docu that he respected Mike and all that, and Mike didn't say nothing to him because he knew he would go out and compete once the game started

I just really want to emphasize here that if anyone thinks I'm using an overly simplistic rubric for credit assignment, you're confused. I go into far greater nuance here than the average analyst. If you're reading what I'm saying as a black & white thing, that's you defaulting to an over-simplistic mapping and projecting it on to me.

Note that I'm not assuming that you or anyone other particular person has a simpler internal analysis than I do, I'm just saying, if you look at my analysis and think "Oh another one of these guys...", you're making a bad assumption. My perspective here is frankly something pretty close to unique. Doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm not someone you can a label on so easily.

Re: Duncan-like ablity to rein in headcases. What? Duncan never had that ability. Go watch the '04 Olympics again. Notice how Duncan, despite being the best player on the team, basically had ZERO leadership ability.

The thing about "leading by doing" is that you only are successful in this capacity when people have already bought in. To be a truly great leader, you have to be proactive in your leading and mentoring, which LeBron has always tried to be, even back to his first stint in Cleveland.

And as I say that: I criticize LeBron for some things in his 2nd stint in Cleveland as a leader and for his first year in LA, but that shows what LeBron looks like when his attempts at leadership aren't working. He gets frustrated because he recognizes what's happening. What does Duncan do? Let someone else dominate the locker room and culture.

How is LeBron proactive in leading and mentoring the veteran Lakers roster though? He's not even big bro to these guys like he was to Kyrie and Love. Howard, Rondo, Danny, Javale, and Cook have all beat him in the playoffs before on other very talented, well put together, and very professional squads before. Dudley was in the conference Finals over a decade ago. Again the Lakers are the oldest team in the league. When he was leading the baby Lakers it looked dysfunctional, now that he doesn't have to lead (because the squad is full of vets) it's looking good.

Kuz (2nd round pick that had to fight for his spot), Caruso (former G-Leaguer that's had to fight for his spot), and AD are the only players under 30 getting PT.

[Texas Chuck]

anyone selling DeAndre Jordan as a valuable leader might not be the best source on leadership. Remember that same season when he was playing with the best prospect to hit the league since AD? And how he kept making selfish plays to prop up his own stats rather than letting a great transition player grab and go? And openly admitted to doing so because rebounds were how he got paid? What is this supposed to be some sort of tough love leadership? Nah man that's selfish play--the opposite of leadership.

Meanwhile in NY nothing was at stake because the roster didn't have a single player on it who factored into their future. There was nobody to even lead. DeAndre at that point realized I better pretend to care again so I can get another contract---which he only got because he's friends with KD and Kyrie who got him a contract that the whole league immediately laughed at.

And that's without even getting into the whole having to be locked in Blake Griffin's house because he was such a follower that last man to talk to him would get him.

This is wild narrative spinning at this point based on which players one likes and which players one doesn't I guess. I mean to utterly dismiss Lebron as a leader while citing DeAndre Jordan? What are we even doing here?

[poopdamoop]

Yeah calling DeAndre Jordan any kind of leader is stunning to me. Dude nearly gave Luka a concussion trying to grab rebounds, and I don't recall much coming out about him being a voice in the locker room.

[Sublime187]

Spoiler:

I think you have more faith in Dwight's ability to grow up right when he needs it than I do. I think he should have been looking at things like "this is my last chance" since he was in Atlanta. I don't think it's a coincidence that he bought in when joining the team of the most empowered superstar in the league who was also all-in on building a hard-working culture built around him.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Rondo woke up in the same context.

I'd say it's really the same type of thing we saw from Rodman on Jordan's team. Yes, Rodman was still a wild card, but looked at Jordan as his boss. I'm pretty dang sure that Howard & Rondo look at LeBron similarly. I mean consider the alternative: You think it's Vogel who has the magic spell? Pelinka? The Buss family? Nah.

I will say this though: Give an assist to Kobe's Laker success and, tragically, Kobe's death.

This is the kind of thing when evaluating players or leaders we really don’t know how big of an impact someone had.

Like really how much credit do we give to lebron? How much to the whole Lakers staff, AD, the team and of course Dwight himself? It all factors in im sure but how much credit do you give lebron? Maybe Dwight just legit grew up and thought I’ve been on trash teams nearly 10 years now this maybe my only shot to win a ring. I’m sure Vogel and bron had a chat with him but maybe that’s the same chat Lillard could have had with him if he joined Lillard on a legit contender.

At the same time the opposite is thrown around too. Like lebron made love worse. When in reality after the initial growing pains ( yes lebron deserves some blame here) the only decline in love was his play around the basket. That was almost certainly due to weight loss/injuries. He played there less of course because he was shooting a lot of threes but he was no welters near the force around the rim he once once.

If we want to be petty we could say kawhi made Paul George worse. In reality sometimes good players just get worse or don’t mesh and there’s no one else to blame. I’m sure bron would be getting killed if PG played this way next to him after how great he looked the next to Westbrook. Which is funny given all the criticism Westbrook gets.

How much credit do we give to LeBron? None. Like are y'all serious, did all of you forget what happened this offseason with Dwight? Forget about him coming out to publicly say he was changing his mindset because no one would sign him? Forget about his very highly publicized weight loss? Forget about him going to social media to try to get the Lakers to give him a chance to even try out?

Just because you personally think he should've realized he was talking out the league earlier doesn't mean he should've, especially as hard headed as Dwight is. I mean when you're still playing 30 mpg and getting $20 million contracts it's easy to think you're great. When Kyle O'Quinn is getting signed before you and getting signed for more money than you're being offered around the league it's different.

Like there were a billion stories like this:

Read on Twitter

All offseason, but it's LeBron? Y'all kill me.

Also @ Doc: Since when had Rondo been known for not showing up in the playoffs? One year in Dallas? His whole career outside of that he's been seen as nothing different from what he's been in LA. Like come on this is such a damn stretch here and just seems like an attempt to give LeBron credit for the Lakers professionalism as an organization as if they're not a veteran squad. Rondo is a 33 year old former champion known for being one of the smartest players in the game and best teammates in the league and he was that before LeBron was ever on his team.

To give a guy like that much credit after being what he is for so long to change in a matter of months is just ridiculous IMO. Human beings rarely change much and to go from where Howard was to now what he is doing this season is a big change. Dwight has been in this kind of situation for many years, and he refused to change. Am I saying all the credit goes to Bron and company? No way. But they definitely get some credit for this. I mean how do we know Dwight had all that motivation to get on a team only and then when he made it that drive would not completely die again?

I think he initially had the drive to get better and then the way the Lakers were pushing for the championship and he realizing he could be a main cog in that success has pushed him to where we are now. You become who you hang around with so to say that Bron and others have not had ANY impact on what he has done is just being nonsensical, again IMO.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Bruh why are we on page 2 of lebrons leadership

Lebrons a good leader

Lebrons not their dad

Think its fair. On POY voting, i think a clear top 6 is

Bron
AD
Jokic
Kawhi
Giannis
Harden

Giannis and harden both had the same issue of 0 iq coaching, i dint think either player are in a fools gold system although i think they might not be optimized in skme ways, and that buy in with everyone being involved vs catch and shoot and watch harden is real imo.

Kawhi realistically was really good in the playoffs round 1 and solid round two outside of that game 7 choke, but giannis was bad for a whole series. Id say he v harden is inreresting but giannis was so good in the rs

Im not even sure for giannis v kawhi tho

Lebron over AD because the rs gap is still pretty big, and i think while AD was clearly better vs the nuggets, i have lebron for portland and a wash against houstan based of that being a series ad should dominate. Alao pretty sure lebron will be better in the finals. Might have ad above Against portland if i rewatch, but lebrons been really good this playoffs too. His defense has actually been insane, his offense has been pretty fire although he isnt finding lobs, but even the denver series where i ghought he struggled in hindsight, game 1 he was allowing ad to do his thing, game 2 he was careless with the ball, game 3 he was great, game 4 he was ok but his jumper was off but his d was crazy, game 5 he went super saiyan

It was better looking back than when it act happened, still have davis over him that series handily even with game 5 heroics, but bron was legitimately amazing against portland and houstan as well. Keep in mind this is the least spacing brons had, but his per 36 numbers are about the same as the legendary 2017 and 2018 runs. Sure its not been as good but brons having a top tier playoff run as well. Id assume that the things i say about ad apply the other way as well in terms of bron creating his own shot and although thats expected, he isnt in a 5 out or mismatch hunting systek like in those cavs years.

I feel people assume brons taken so many steps back from his prime right now but consider how crazy his defense has been too.

AD over everyone else because i think hes having an ATG playoff run so far. I dont think theres been a series where he wasnt better than anyone on the other team. In hindsight bron was alot better vs the nuggets than i though looking at how he did although ill check how he got his buckets later again. It feels weird for me to say lebron and AD were better than jokic that series but looking through, davis was better game 1, i maintain he was better game 2, id say he was better game 4 and 5 as well considering defense and jokic not being able to stay on the court.

Lebron was better game 1 and game 5 for sure, game 4 is def arguable because of his d on murray as well. At the same time while jokic was the engine murray at times seemed the best player on the floor and was hitting some ridiculous shots to eep the offense afloat, and rhe denver offense was bottom 10 in the league in results (without adjusting for d obv) for 3/5 games (considering game 1 they scored in garbage time), and ibv neither jokic or murray are good defenders, jokic this playoffs especially being really poor defensively

Jokic at 3 cuz he outperformed kawhi and did really well against the lakers regardless

The more i think about it the more im imagining how absolutely ridiculous playoff ADs numbers would be on a team that fits his strengths as the lone star.

The main knock on AD is he cant carry an offense on his own but at the same time i think him needing a primary ball handler isnt a big deal. People assume he cant be the number 1 option but if you had a jamal murray, or even a guy like dragic or (as we saw) holiday, would you say davis isnt the number 1 option? For alot of reasons impact data might overly credit the primary ball handler in davis led offenses but thats because ADs on ball scoring isnt as strong, but now suddenly its ATG level this playoffs.

I think considering the 2018 pelicans once they had a semblence of spacing (not that good though) and a good partner in jrue were able to be a top 10 offense post cousins, despite being a pretty bad supporting cast in general still, and i think top 5 adjusting for defenses theyve faced (also worth noting they had a huge stinker that drops their average alot), and ADs added 2 tiers to playmaking since then (although he went from garbagio to solid in that regard) and assuming playoff ad is real he went from "struggles to create his own shot" to being ATG at it this run, i think an offense around this version of AD would be pretty good

[E-Balla]

anyone selling DeAndre Jordan as a valuable leader might not be the best source on leadership. Remember that same season when he was playing with the best prospect to hit the league since AD? And how he kept making selfish plays to prop up his own stats rather than letting a great transition player grab and go? And openly admitted to doing so because rebounds were how he got paid? What is this supposed to be some sort of tough love leadership? Nah man that's selfish play--the opposite of leadership.

Meanwhile in NY nothing was at stake because the roster didn't have a single player on it who factored into their future. There was nobody to even lead. DeAndre at that point realized I better pretend to care again so I can get another contract---which he only got because he's friends with KD and Kyrie who got him a contract that the whole league immediately laughed at.

And that's without even getting into the whole having to be locked in Blake Griffin's house because he was such a follower that last man to talk to him would get him.

This is wild narrative spinning at this point based on which players one likes and which players one doesn't I guess. I mean to utterly dismiss Lebron as a leader while citing DeAndre Jordan? What are we even doing here?

Bro I hate when people speak on **** they don't know, never cared to know, still don't care to know, but want to be so badly seen as experts on.

https://www.si.com/nba/knicks/news/mitchell-robinson-deandre-jordan

But you're right, grabbing rebounds instead of Luka means he wasn't a veteran presence on the Knicks and wasn't the reason Mitch went from being an ok rookie to having an historic rookie season (he averaged 5/4 prior to Deandre joining the team and 10/9 after). Does it not feel bad to be explicitly wrong about something you could've googled in 2 seconds?

EDIT: Also when my whole point was that Deandre, after years of not being a great vet was able to join a team full of young guys with a bad culture and be that leader like I'd assume a refocused Dwight would, it doesn't make much sense to bring up how Deandre wasn't a leader prior to when I said he became one. It's literally as relevant as saying the sky is blue. Deandre's relationship with Mitch and Jarrett Allen is proof enough that immature people when faced with tough times can mature and find a suitable role on an NBA roster mentoring younger, less accomplished guys.

[E-Balla]

Yeah calling DeAndre Jordan any kind of leader is stunning to me. Dude nearly gave Luka a concussion trying to grab rebounds, and I don't recall much coming out about him being a voice in the locker room.

Because you don't pay attention to the Knicks or Nets at all but good job exposing how much attention you pay to the NBA before commenting on it.

[Texas Chuck]

Got it. DeAndre was never a leader before by your own admission, magically became one for a few months in NY and the rest of us are all ignorant doofuses. Good chat.

Meanwhile Lebron with a 15 year track record as a leader obviously wasn't having any impact at all on another guy with a really poor track record pre-Lebron

Just want to make sure I've got this. After all I don't actually pay attention to the Association or know how to use google. /sarcasm

[E-Balla]

To give a guy like that much credit after being what he is for so long to change in a matter of months is just ridiculous IMO. Human beings rarely change much and to go from where Howard was to now what he is doing this season is a big change. Dwight has been in this kind of situation for many years, and he refused to change. Am I saying all the credit goes to Bron and company? No way. But they definitely get some credit for this. I mean how do we know Dwight had all that motivation to get on a team only and then when he made it that drive would not completely die again?

I think he initially had the drive to get better and then the way the Lakers were pushing for the championship and he realizing he could be a main cog in that success has pushed him to where we are now. You become who you hang around with so to say that Bron and others have not had ANY impact on what he has done is just being nonsensical, again IMO.

I mean Dwight's change was pretty simple: Stop being an **** to your teammates and play within your role, not out of it. Dwight has clearly not been in a situation where teams were picking Kyle O'Quinn while he was having to beg to get a try out to get signed for the vet's minimum prior to this offseason so the idea he's been in this situation for years is a complete fabrication. Prior to this season Dwight's been making $20 million, averaging a double double, and playing 30 mpg everywhere he's gone. You think it's obvious he should've been doing better but if I learned anything with him, AI, and Melo it's that guys don't realize they've lost it until well after it's been obvious to us as fans.

And we know Dwight wouldn't lose that drive once he made a roster because he's on a vet's min 1 year deal.

Bron's affected him on the court because they have an obvious synergy there but I'll redirect all this weird father figure psychoanalysis to this old exchange which explains how weird y'all are:

Watch on YouTube

These are all grown ass men bro. Professionals. Not children. Especially old ass Dwight Howard and Rajon Rondo. Wanna know what'll make a man shape up real quick? The threat of losing your only income with 5 baby mamas to pay for another 15 years.

[Dupp]

Lol at threat of losing your only income. This isn’t like you or me losing a job Dwight is rich as ****. Also you sure it’s dwights only income?

[MyUniBroDavis]

To give a guy like that much credit after being what he is for so long to change in a matter of months is just ridiculous IMO. Human beings rarely change much and to go from where Howard was to now what he is doing this season is a big change. Dwight has been in this kind of situation for many years, and he refused to change. Am I saying all the credit goes to Bron and company? No way. But they definitely get some credit for this. I mean how do we know Dwight had all that motivation to get on a team only and then when he made it that drive would not completely die again?

I think he initially had the drive to get better and then the way the Lakers were pushing for the championship and he realizing he could be a main cog in that success has pushed him to where we are now. You become who you hang around with so to say that Bron and others have not had ANY impact on what he has done is just being nonsensical, again IMO.

I mean Dwight's change was pretty simple: Stop being an **** to your teammates and play within your role, not out of it. Dwight has clearly not been in a situation where teams were picking Kyle O'Quinn while he was having to beg to get a try out to get signed for the vet's minimum prior to this offseason so the idea he's been in this situation for years is a complete fabrication. Prior to this season Dwight's been making $20 million, averaging a double double, and playing 30 mpg everywhere he's gone. You think it's obvious he should've been doing better but if I learned anything with him, AI, and Melo it's that guys don't realize they've lost it until well after it's been obvious to us as fans.

And we know Dwight wouldn't lose that drive once he made a roster because he's on a vet's min 1 year deal.

Bron's affected him on the court because they have an obvious synergy there but I'll redirect all this weird father figure psychoanalysis to this old exchange which explains how weird y'all are:

Watch on YouTube

These are all grown ass men bro. Professionals. Not children. Especially old ass Dwight Howard and Rajon Rondo. Wanna know what'll make a man shape up real quick? The threat of losing your only income with 5 baby mamas to pay for another 15 years.

I think that i get the idea that dwights said this every year and that hea doing it now but theres clearly a difference between him saying it and literally taking the minimum deal

I think people are thinking it too much as the best player is the leader and the rest are the followes, theyre coworkers.

Theyre their own men, and llayers dont yell at people keeping others in check being hardasses like that anymore, at least bron isnt like that.

Brons literally just like that chill dude that jokes around, maybe you can give him credit for being a chill dude and not a hardass which is a good call for the team they are in right now but i dont think it runs that deep lmao

With a vet and young players maybe but dwights like a year younger than bron lol.

Brons been a good leader but he didnt mold dwight a 34 year old man by doing tiktoks with the fam lmao like dwight did that himself. The lakers represent a real oppertunity as a restart because they have legitimate championship or bust aspirations with two superstars ofc alot of players would wanna remake themselves in that environment. I mean miami si the most hardass team and dion literally stonered too hard lol

[freethedevil]

Yes it's very weird to give credit Bron a lion's share of the credit for that. I mean tbf - Doc MJ iirc has used the inverse logic to criticize other players in the past so he's at least being consistent in his approach, which is understandable.

At the same time I think giving him no credit is also unfair - as is, fundamentally your success is a function of many people, and basketball's no different. I don't think LeBron has a Duncan like ability to rein in headcases, but it's entirely possible that just having a stronger personality and a clear pecking order was enough to send a "do not **** around, we are serious about not tolerating bull" policy loud and clear

On the MJ-Rodman comparison: IIRC thye kept around a guy who was there solely to rein in Rodman (his bff or something), so I don't think the situation's THAT comparable. He did say in the docu that he respected Mike and all that, and Mike didn't say nothing to him because he knew he would go out and compete once the game started

I just really want to emphasize here that if anyone thinks I'm using an overly simplistic rubric for credit assignment, you're confused. I go into far greater nuance here than the average analyst. If you're reading what I'm saying as a black & white thing, that's you defaulting to an over-simplistic mapping and projecting it on to me.

Note that I'm not assuming that you or anyone other particular person has a simpler internal analysis than I do, I'm just saying, if you look at my analysis and think "Oh another one of these guys...", you're making a bad assumption. My perspective here is frankly something pretty close to unique. Doesn't mean I'm right, but I'm not someone you can a label on so easily.

Re: Duncan-like ablity to rein in headcases. What? Duncan never had that ability. Go watch the '04 Olympics again. Notice how Duncan, despite being the best player on the team, basically had ZERO leadership ability.

The thing about "leading by doing" is that you only are successful in this capacity when people have already bought in. To be a truly great leader, you have to be proactive in your leading and mentoring, which LeBron has always tried to be, even back to his first stint in Cleveland.

And as I say that: I criticize LeBron for some things in his 2nd stint in Cleveland as a leader and for his first year in LA, but that shows what LeBron looks like when his attempts at leadership aren't working. He gets frustrated because he recognizes what's happening. What does Duncan do? Let someone else dominate the locker room and culture.

How is LeBron proactive in leading and mentoring the veteran Lakers roster though? He's not even big bro to these guys like he was to Kyrie and Love. Howard, Rondo, Danny, Javale, and Cook have all beat him in the playoffs before on other very talented, well put together, and very professional squads before. Dudley was in the conference Finals over a decade ago. Again the Lakers are the oldest team in the league. When he was leading the baby Lakers it looked dysfunctional, now that he doesn't have to lead (because the squad is full of vets) it's looking good.

Kuz (2nd round pick that had to fight for his spot), Caruso (former G-Leaguer that's had to fight for his spot), and AD are the only players under 30 getting PT.

Balla's mostly right. Did Howard want to stay in the league? yes. Would he have a chance at staying in the league without losing weight? No. Would he have lost weight without Lebron? Yes. If the lakers didn't exist and a contender were smart enough they'd get him.

Only place where I think its reasonable to give lebron a big chunk of credit here would be if lebron specifcally advocated for dwight to be rbought on, because as far as I know, the clippers rejected him, and its quite possible people would have just said no.

In that case, lebron would have gotten the lakers possibly the second best player in the league AND a very important role player.