(LOCK THREAD) The LeBron James - 22-23 NBA Season Thread -NBA's All-Time Scoring Leader!

[tsherkin]

This is the first time in Lebron's career he's actually had to play on a rebuilding team. He's switched teams at this point every time this situation has arose in his last stops. Those teams mortgaged their future so that they could go to the finals, but once it was time to rebuild, Lebron left for greener pastures. Now he has to finally see the cost.

This is his legacy. Teams mortgage their future to go to the finals for 4 years and then they have to rebuild but Lebron leaves to repeat the process. This is the first time he's chosen to stay and pay for those title chances but now he's the victim.

No, his legacy is his incredible individual performance and winning titles with every franchise he's played for. Yeah, he's been mercenary about it but he's delivered. Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. One title with LA and multiple Finals appearances and at least one title with Cleveland and Miami. He's the greatest thing to ever happen to the Cavs and one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

It kind of boggles my mind how hard people work to diminish Lebron at times. Yeah, he's old now. He's not going to be even 2020 Lebron again as he moves into the most noticeable phase of his decline, sure. Age is inevitable, but the back end of any player's career is almost irrelevant except for the feel-good parts. Same as it was with Kareem, or Moses, Jordan or Kobe.

[Onus]

This is the first time in Lebron's career he's actually had to play on a rebuilding team. He's switched teams at this point every time this situation has arose in his last stops. Those teams mortgaged their future so that they could go to the finals, but once it was time to rebuild, Lebron left for greener pastures. Now he has to finally see the cost.

This is his legacy. Teams mortgage their future to go to the finals for 4 years and then they have to rebuild but Lebron leaves to repeat the process. This is the first time he's chosen to stay and pay for those title chances but now he's the victim.

No, his legacy is his incredible individual performance and winning titles with every franchise he's played for. Yeah, he's been mercenary about it but he's delivered. Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. One title with LA and multiple Finals appearances and at least one title with Cleveland and Miami. He's the greatest thing to ever happen to the Cavs and one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

It kind of boggles my mind how hard people work to diminish Lebron at times. Yeah, he's old now. He's not going to be even 2020 Lebron again as he moves into the most noticeable phase of his decline, sure. Age is inevitable, but the back end of any player's career is almost irrelevant except for the feel-good parts. Same as it was with Kareem, or Moses, Jordan or Kobe.

He's one of the greatest no doubt about it. All of this is a part of his legacy.

[Ian Scuffling]

I think it's funny that there are so many lebron fans acting like Lebron is a victim. The lakers had 3 no 2 picks on the team and don't own their pick until 2027 and traded all of that so that they could win a bubble title. AD and Lebron are no longer top 10 players in the league. What does trading 2027 and 2029 pick do for this team? Make them a play in team?

This is the first time in Lebron's career he's actually had to play on a rebuilding team. He's switched teams at this point every time this situation has arose in his last stops. Those teams mortgaged their future so that they could go to the finals, but once it was time to rebuild, Lebron left for greener pastures. Now he has to finally see the cost.

This is his legacy. Teams mortgage their future to go to the finals for 4 years and then they have to rebuild but Lebron leaves to repeat the process. This is the first time he's chosen to stay and pay for those title chances but now he's the victim.

At the risk of really riling people up, it seems that victim status is something you see Lebron fans cling to in a way you really don't see for Jordan. Whether he's the victim of Dan Gilbert's incompetence, KD's decision to join the Warriors, or I guess now Buss/Pelinka's incompetence. I guess it could be reflective of broader ways that our society values the status of "victim" compared to the 90s

What was Jordan the victim of, though? You have to be a victim to be called a victim. Not sure James is a victim, either. But, his first stint with the Cavs was rife with blunders from bad coaches to a bad front office. No real talent was put around him. That was well documented. James didn't cause that. Not sure, he's a victim, but it obviously affects the team and Lebron.

Miami years? Not much other than Wade spiraling into NBA journeyman much quicker than most thought. Again, it happened to a James lead team. James didn't cause that, but his team sure did feel the effects.

Second Cavs stint? Again, not much other than the second best player on the team being an immature whackadoodle of a diva, thinking he should be the alpha, thus forcing his way off of the team and making that team worse. James didn't cause Irving's delusions of grandeur, which hurt that franchise. Did that happen to Jordan? Oh yeah, and in regards to on court play, who can forget JR's **** up in the Finals game 1, in a game James hung a 50 spot. Yep, James has all the luck.

Lakers stint? Well, it went pretty well by getting a great big and number two in AD. They won a championship with James as their best player. After that, the fun ended and for some reason he, at the least, encouraged the front office to go after Westbrook. Dumb move, obviously. And the last couple years, injuries, which are part of the game and part of aging. He certainly isn't a victim of anything, but the facts are there that he has had some really bad luck with teammates and front offices that Jordan, and many other greats, never had.

[zimpy27]

This is the first time in Lebron's career he's actually had to play on a rebuilding team. He's switched teams at this point every time this situation has arose in his last stops. Those teams mortgaged their future so that they could go to the finals, but once it was time to rebuild, Lebron left for greener pastures. Now he has to finally see the cost.

This is his legacy. Teams mortgage their future to go to the finals for 4 years and then they have to rebuild but Lebron leaves to repeat the process. This is the first time he's chosen to stay and pay for those title chances but now he's the victim.

No, his legacy is his incredible individual performance and winning titles with every franchise he's played for. Yeah, he's been mercenary about it but he's delivered. Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. One title with LA and multiple Finals appearances and at least one title with Cleveland and Miami. He's the greatest thing to ever happen to the Cavs and one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

It kind of boggles my mind how hard people work to diminish Lebron at times. Yeah, he's old now. He's not going to be even 2020 Lebron again as he moves into the most noticeable phase of his decline, sure. Age is inevitable, but the back end of any player's career is almost irrelevant except for the feel-good parts. Same as it was with Kareem, or Moses, Jordan or Kobe.

He's one of the greatest no doubt about it. All of this is a part of his legacy.

Winning 3 championships and 3 finals MVPs with 3 entirely different teams and coaches really highlights that he's the common denominator to those championships. That is his legacy and with more player movement this will try to be emulated and I think people will eventually realise how difficult it is to do what LeBron has done. He's ahead of his time in this regard, though I put Kareem on that similar level.

Guys like Curry, Jordan, Duncan will be top 10 but they will have more questions regarding the contributions of supporting cast, coaching and system than LeBron ever will.

[Onus]

No, his legacy is his incredible individual performance and winning titles with every franchise he's played for. Yeah, he's been mercenary about it but he's delivered. Cleveland, Miami, Los Angeles. One title with LA and multiple Finals appearances and at least one title with Cleveland and Miami. He's the greatest thing to ever happen to the Cavs and one of the greatest players in the history of the game.

It kind of boggles my mind how hard people work to diminish Lebron at times. Yeah, he's old now. He's not going to be even 2020 Lebron again as he moves into the most noticeable phase of his decline, sure. Age is inevitable, but the back end of any player's career is almost irrelevant except for the feel-good parts. Same as it was with Kareem, or Moses, Jordan or Kobe.

He's one of the greatest no doubt about it. All of this is a part of his legacy.

Winning 3 championships and 3 finals MVPs with 3 entirely different teams and coaches really highlights that he's the common denominator to those championships. That is his legacy and with more player movement this will try to be emulated and I think people will eventually realise how difficult it is to do what LeBron has done. He's ahead of his time in this regard, though I put Kareem on that similar level.

Guys like Curry, Jordan, Duncan will be top 10 but they will have more questions regarding the contributions of supporting cast, coaching and system than LeBron ever will.

Eh I'm not really sure that's true. All his teams were similarly put together. Can you really say can Lebron work with 2 bigs? Can he work without his bigs being able to shoot? Can he win with young guys? Can he develop anyone to become an all-star next to him?

[parsnips33]

I think it's funny that there are so many lebron fans acting like Lebron is a victim. The lakers had 3 no 2 picks on the team and don't own their pick until 2027 and traded all of that so that they could win a bubble title. AD and Lebron are no longer top 10 players in the league. What does trading 2027 and 2029 pick do for this team? Make them a play in team?

This is the first time in Lebron's career he's actually had to play on a rebuilding team. He's switched teams at this point every time this situation has arose in his last stops. Those teams mortgaged their future so that they could go to the finals, but once it was time to rebuild, Lebron left for greener pastures. Now he has to finally see the cost.

This is his legacy. Teams mortgage their future to go to the finals for 4 years and then they have to rebuild but Lebron leaves to repeat the process. This is the first time he's chosen to stay and pay for those title chances but now he's the victim.

At the risk of really riling people up, it seems that victim status is something you see Lebron fans cling to in a way you really don't see for Jordan. Whether he's the victim of Dan Gilbert's incompetence, KD's decision to join the Warriors, or I guess now Buss/Pelinka's incompetence. I guess it could be reflective of broader ways that our society values the status of "victim" compared to the 90s

What was Jordan the victim of, though? You have to be a victim to be called a victim. Not sure James is a victim, either. But, his first stint with the Cavs was rife with blunders from bad coaches to a bad front office. No real talent was put around him. That was well documented. James didn't cause that. Not sure, he's a victim, but it obviously affects the team and Lebron.

Miami years? Not much other than Wade spiraling into NBA journeyman much quicker than most thought. Again, it happened to a James lead team. James didn't cause that, but his team sure did feel the effects.

Second Cavs stint? Again, not much other than the second best player on the team being an immature whackadoodle of a diva, thinking he should be the alpha, thus forcing his way off of the team and making that team worse. James didn't cause Irving's delusions of grandeur, which hurt that franchise. Did that happen to Jordan? Oh yeah, and in regards to on court play, who can forget JR's **** up in the Finals game 1, in a game James hung a 50 spot. Yep, James has all the luck.

Lakers stint? Well, it went pretty well by getting a great big and number two in AD. They won a championship with James as their best player. After that, the fun ended and for some reason he, at the least, encouraged the front office to go after Westbrook. Dumb move, obviously. And the last couple years, injuries, which are part of the game and part of aging. He certainly isn't a victim of anything, but the facts are there that he has had some really bad luck with teammates and front offices that Jordan, and many other greats, never had.

Agree with you, I think the whole "6-0 in the Finals" plays into Jordan's narrative - at least in hindsight (I can't speak much to the contemporaneous view of Jordan). Jordan's story, at least as it's told today, is one of unquestioned dominance. Lebron's story feels much more like one of overcoming obstacles. At least in the post-decision pre-2016 era (the heart of his prime), the story was always about Lebron vs his haters, can he win a ring, etc.

I'm not really commenting on the players as such, I have Bron over Jordan all time. Just think it's interesting the way they are viewed symbolically. Jordan is more of a mythic God like figure while James is human, flawed, vulnerable

[trex_8063]

What did she do? She got him Peak Anthony Davis, Russell Westbrook. Also Melo, Dwight, Rondo last year.

A bunch of vet minimum players and the worst contract in the league? Wow, that must have been some hardball negotiating she did.

Mentioning them as if they're in their prime. Dwight is playing in Taiwan for godsakes.

Huh!

Dwight won 3 DPOY, Westbrook won league mvp's and the all time leader in triple doubles and
Melo the all time leader in gold medals along with a scoring title.

Michael Jordan is a 5-time MVP and thought by many to be the GOAT; so if he came out of retirement and joined this Laker squad [at age 59], would that make this by far the most loaded team ever?

Noting what various players did 6-14 years ago has no bearing on what those players are today (cripes, the most recent of Dwight's DPOY's was 12 years ago).

We've been here before. Posting in this manner is trolling. If you can't see how/why it is, you need to re-evaluate if this is the place for you. But I suspect you know. Warned.

[Ian Scuffling]

It's almost as if JordansBulls is allergic to reason and/or common sense. Glad you used the Jordan example. He might be able to relate to that one.

[prolific passer]

Lebron is about to have more non playoff appearances with 5 then he does rings with 4.
How many MVPs with championships have done that? 2 off the top of my head is Pettit and Cowens. Anybody else?

[Joao Saraiva]

He's one of the greatest no doubt about it. All of this is a part of his legacy.

Winning 3 championships and 3 finals MVPs with 3 entirely different teams and coaches really highlights that he's the common denominator to those championships. That is his legacy and with more player movement this will try to be emulated and I think people will eventually realise how difficult it is to do what LeBron has done. He's ahead of his time in this regard, though I put Kareem on that similar level.

Guys like Curry, Jordan, Duncan will be top 10 but they will have more questions regarding the contributions of supporting cast, coaching and system than LeBron ever will.

Eh I'm not really sure that's true. All his teams were similarly put together. Can you really say can Lebron work with 2 bigs? Can he work without his bigs being able to shoot? Can he win with young guys? Can he develop anyone to become an all-star next to him?

LeBron literally won with a lineup of Howard/McGee and Davis. Can he win with two bigs? Obviously.

He also won 66 games with Varejao and Hickson playing a big portion of time in Cleveland. Sure big Z could shoot, but the other 2 could not or Ben Wallace. So yeah he can definitely work with two bigs.

Speaking about Hickson, people questioned if it was a good decision to trade him for Stoudemire. They thought he was gonna be an all-star. 1 or 2 years later after LBJ he was out of the NBA! lol

Who was he supposed to develop into all-star talent or help with that? Joel Anthony? Norris Cole? Hickson? Daniel Gibson?

I mean you can work with your teammates all you want, if they lack the talent they'll never be all-stars. No player is gonna change that.

Rondo had a fantastic 2020 year with LBJ, Caruso, KCP, Hickson with the Cavs, Dwight Howard corpse was revived with him when he failed close to his prime before in LA.

So I don't understand that type of criticism to be honest.

Dude has proven he can work with a bad fit in the perimeter (wade) and he adjusted to playing PF. He adjusted to play with Kyrie too, a better fit and played SF. He played a ton of time as PG on the Lakers to incorporate shooters like Danny Green, KCP and Kuzma.

I don't think you can criticize his versatility.

Is LeBron old? Is his motor not what it used to be? Probably not a top 20 player nowadays? All understandable. I don't think his versatility on both offense and defense can be questioned trough his career.

[Joao Saraiva]

Lebron is about to have more non playoff appearances with 5 then he does rings with 4.
How many MVPs with championships have done that? 2 off the top of my head is Pettit and Cowens. Anybody else?

Context matters. How many played 20 seasons? How many under bad circumstances specially after their motor is no longer there?

Legacy isn't something you can subtract. He's not adding a ton of value to his career right now, but he's definitely not erasing what he did previously.

[AEnigma]

Lebron is about to have more non playoff appearances with 5 then he does rings with 4.
How many MVPs with championships have done that? 2 off the top of my head is Pettit and Cowens. Anybody else?

Curry, Hakeem, Garnett, Moses, Dirk, Durant, Giannis, Oscar… And Kobe has double the missed playoffs as he has Finals MVPs, which sure makes you think.

This is such a weird framing and complaint. Jordan had four five below .500 seasons in his fifteen-season career, as many as more than Lebron will have in a twenty-season career if the Lakers finish below .500 this year. Do you feel like that makes for a meaningful observation? Hakeem only had one below .500 season across an eighteen-season career, and Kareem only had two across a twenty-season career. Meaningful? What about when comparing them to Duncan, Magic, Bird, or Russell?

Surely there are better uses of your time than this.

[prolific passer]

Lebron is about to have more non playoff appearances with 5 then he does rings with 4.
How many MVPs with championships have done that? 2 off the top of my head is Pettit and Cowens. Anybody else?

Curry, Hakeem, Garnett, Moses, Dirk, Durant, Giannis, Oscar… And Kobe has double the missed playoffs as he has Finals MVPs, which sure makes you think.

This is such a weird framing and complaint. Jordan had four below .500 seasons in his fifteen-season career, as many as Lebron will have in a twenty-season career if the Lakers finish below .500 this year. Do you feel like that makes for a meaningful observation? Hakeem only had one below .500 season across an eighteen-season career, and Kareem only had two across a twenty-season career. Meaningful? What about when comparing them to Duncan, Magic, Bird, or Russell?

Surely there are better uses of your time than this.

I didn't bring up Jordan in this but whatever floats your boat.

[AEnigma]

Good response to being called out for an inane and meaningless question which you could have answered for yourself with the most rudimentary search.

The point is that no one whines about Jordan’s Wizards years, or about how he thrice made the playoffs with a losing record, but suddenly it is significant that Year 19 and 20 Lebron is not dragging a garbage roster to the postseason.

[thebigbird]

The only bad part of LeBron playing so long is that the trolls will come out of the woodworks to hate on his career because of what he did in years 19, 20, etc. 99.9% of NBA players were retired before making it that far. Yet somehow it’s somehow a negative that LeBron is able to last this long and still play at such a high level. Asinine.

[LukaTheGOAT]

"Anthony Davis is the biggest what-if in NBA history"

I'm not sure if it was a tweet or a quote from someone on the board (someone had it as a sig), but I think about that quote a lot when I watch the Lakers lol

Lol I had that sig for a while and changed it 2 weeks ago, lol

[parsnips33]

LeBron has been so good for so long can you not just let the haters enjoy the decline a little?

[zimpy27]

LeBron has been so good for so long can you not just let the haters enjoy the decline a little?

The funniest thing about the decline is that literally the only thing that has happened this season is awful 3 shooting.

For every other thing on the court, LeBron is doing what he has always done. He's just missing 3s because of his new quick release form he worked on in offseason.

This season vs career
OREB% 5.2 vs 3.6
DREB% 20.5 vs 18.7
AST% 35.2 vs 36.4
STL% 1.4 vs 2.1
BLK% 1.7 vs 1.6
TO% 12.4 vs 13.2
USG% 32.2 vs 31.6
2% 56.1 vs 55.3
3% 23.9 vs 34.5

[Ian Scuffling]

The only bad part of LeBron playing so long is that the trolls will come out of the woodworks to hate on his career because of what he did in years 19, 20, etc. 99.9% of NBA players were retired before making it that far. Yet somehow it’s somehow a negative that LeBron is able to last this long and still play at such a high level. Asinine.

That's why you never engage the troll or their idiotic comments. Point and laugh or ignore. The fact is, he is playing right now, better than anyone near his age in the history of the league. Is he playing well compared to his prime? Of course not, but then again only an idiotic troll would compare now Lebron with prime Lebron. And context always matters, but trolls are allergic to it, because for obvious reasons, it hurts their already impotent cases. Just enjoy the arguable GOAT and whatever time he has left in the game. That's what I'm doing.

[The High Cyde]

His jumper was looking good against the Clips, hopefully he gets back to 100% healthy and can come back soon. Though at his age and mileage, I think he already sees the writing on the wall for this season and won’t exert as much effort as he could, if the team continues losing and hope for the playoffs are dashed.

That Phoenix series coupled with an injured AD and Bron completely destroyed the Lakers. Kuz, KCP, and Coruso would be a god send right now. That and health to both stars of course.

He should bounce after this season if he can but I doubt he goes anywhere.