jalengreen wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:jalengreen wrote:
Right, that's what I was trying to isolate about the initial claim by presenting both team changes that he had made and determining which one gave him the reputation of being flighty.
I would personally disagree because of the fact that he wanted off from a regime that had, IIRC, a different owner + HC + GM from when he had signed his contract. An entirely unrecognizable organization. So I never personally thought of it as indicative of his inconsistency - by either connotation of the word I'd have to disagree with the assessment of the three stars as inconsistent when the team was formed in 2021, but I respect the opinion of anyone who does ofc
He only wanted out of Houston after he forced them to get rid of Paul and get Westbrook in his place, so let's not forget that the stink was primarily his own making.
Then there was the way he handled himself as he forced his way out of his self-created sewer. This was an organization and city that had treated him very well for a long time, and he responded by not only sabotaging the organization, but publicly violate Covid recommendations in a way that might have gone others sick.
As someone who had cheered for Harden for a very long time because he's from my specific neck of the woods, it was his behavior over this time period that made me see him as someone not to try to tie your fate to. When Player Empowerment reaches a point where players can use such negative leverage, the players who do such things become guys who should be seen as unreliable as franchise players at the very least.
never really sure how much i should believe those reports that come out like harden forcing them to make that trade. morey's description sounded more realistic to me, personally
Daryl Morey: The Paul George situation obviously opened the window, and I did not anticipate him being available until that happened.
First, [I] asked for the direction of the [Thunder], and after that we discussed ‘maybe they’re looking at the possibility of moving some of their other key players. Spoke with ownership, with coach D’Antoni, with James Harden, and acquiring Westbrook at that point was something that we were interested in. And then it’s a matter of just working out the details of how to do it.”
Dan Patrick: What was Harden’s reaction when you first broached the topic.
Daryl Morey: Very enthusiastic, because he knows he plays well together with [Westbrook], because they’ve done it. Both on OKC and USA basketball, and growing up. So he was enthusiastic.
https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/2019/07/31/houston-rockets-daryl-morey-explains-james-hardens-reaction-to-russell-westbrook-trade-nba/and then morey eventually left (he reportedly foresaw the impending rebuild that would be necessary due to the lack of assets).
my own hesitancy in evaluating a player's consistency in situations like this is the context that surrounds it. it's not something like a kyrie situation where i'm not sure how one could argue that he isn't flighty. he just seeemed to leave cleveland because he wanted something new. but the rockets were a team whose GM left due to an impending rebuild and a head coach who left reportedly in part due to a bad relationship with the new owner (fertitta) - and his replace was a rookie HC in silas. i can't say i'm surprised a 31-year-old superstar in their prime didn't want to stick around for that.
i think of it like this - there are superstars who stuck around with their team for extended periods of time who never really had to deal with something like that. i could certainly see kyrie leaving such a good situation anyway because his behavior is suggestive of that, but i don't see that at all from harden because he wanted off of the rockets and i wouldnt think of him as any less reliable simply because he had to face those circumstances while some other stars didn't.
sorta reminds me of the conversation that i sometimes saw come up in the top 100 project. so and so player is more loyal and more coachable, versus this player who's way more likely to leave you. when there's not as much thought given as to why the difference in their environments may have caused that player to want out.
If what you're saying is that while Harden demanding Chris Paul to be traded away, the fact that he ended up being traded for Westbrook with assets going to the other team was something that was simply a decision of Morey, I'm of 2 minds:
1. The Paul point alone proves everything I'm saying, everything else is just layers and layers of icing on the cake.
2. Morey doesn't even consider making this trade if Harden is happy with Paul there, which means what we're talking about is just how much blame to give Morey & co. for what they ended up agreeing to in the wake of Harden's demands...which means Harden is absolutely still deserving of a significant portion of the blame.
In terms of Morey's enthusiasm for Westbrook, frankly that's something that I let go past me whenever GMs make moves like this. Morey would be a fool to say, "This is the worst move I've ever made as a GM.", after all. It's not so much that I can't believe that Morey could be so wrong in his assessment, as it is that I don't think we'll ever be able to know because of the smoke he was incentivized to blow.
There's also the trickiness, which I think you're alluding to, of the owner being problematic. I do think the owner being what contributed to D'Antoni & Morey seeking other shores...but I don't think Harden realistically use that as an excuse unless he's talking about D'Antoni & Morey's issues with the owner, which came after Harden made a ridiculous demand (get rid of Paul) and the organization fulfilled it to keep him happy.
Re: "leaving a good situation". The thing is, Harden literally took a good situation and made it bad when he pushed to get rid of Paul. It makes no sense to ask how, say, draftmate Curry, would handle a situation where he demanded a superior teammate to be traded and that made the team worse, because there's no reason to expect him to do that.
