All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[Texas Chuck]

Interesting stat I heard this morning(Mike and Mike) that since the fall over Ariza Curry is shooting something like 34% from the field and 33% from 3(these may not be exact, but essentially these are the figures). No idea if this is coincidence, good defense from the Cavs, or if something is bothering him that he's not talking about.

But apparently he is still human....

Love the heart Lebron and the Cavs are showing, but Curry has essentially his worst game of the year and they needed OT to get by the W's. Going home will help, and Lebron closed that game missing like 80% of his last 20 shots or something, but its still hard to see how they can win this. But IDK, they have managed to turn both games into their game. For all the love Kerr was getting, I'd say Blatt is winning the coaching matchup at this point. And that's with far fewer options to work with.

[Dr Spaceman]

For all the love Kerr was getting, I'd say Blatt is winning the coaching matchup at this point. And that's with far fewer options to work with.

Ugh don’t even get me started. I was yelling at my TV all through the fourth and overtime to stop posting up Dray and Barnes. Hell, IIRC they called an IGUODALA post up right at the end of regulation. I mean I get taking advantage of matchups, but the time and place for that is not down the stretch of a close Finals game, I’m sorry. Just run your offense. I don’t believe they even got a shot for Klay despite him having a brilliant game to that point.

My brain can’t even process this series. I simply don’t understand how this is happening.All respect to LeBron, who is doing things that I don’t think any player has ever been capable of. He’s a shoe in for #1 if this keeps up.

[MisterHibachi]

Blatt is a very very good coach. Quite clearly the best coach LeBron has had. He's underrated now but he'll get the respect he deserves within a few seasons.

[Doctor MJ]

A brief thought for the morning, with the caveat that we're only 2 games in and adjustments will be made that may render all we've seen moot before all is said & done:

The success of the Cavs in the playoffs would seem to me at this point to be defined based on a recognition that LeBron is potentially the best "loss leader" we've ever seen. Taking the term from marketing and the idea that you sell the most in demand product for a loss so that you can reap the secondary benefits of this. In LeBron's case what this means is that while he can't actually lead a good offense like this, he by himself seems capable of making the offense not be TOO bad, and so if you put a lineup out there full of brutal defense, you might be able to win.

We've seen this before with the Isiah/Iverson/Rose type of teams, but the difference is that LeBron can take it far further offensively (his usage is insane), and he can do it while being central to the defense.

I feel like there's just no way a team like this can be truly top tier historically, however the way it's being used against '14-15 competition where teams have gone such small ball, is in recognition that an utter brute force bunch of brutes can go a long way.

Series is 1-1, so a long way to go. The Warriors essentially chose not to adjust last night, so it's very possible they will now and put this all to bed. But if they don't, and the Cavs actually win this thing, it will be simultaneously brilliant and jaw droopingly impressive....and ugly and sad.

For LeBron's proper reputation, and defense against the stupid criticism made of him, I want him to win.
But for someone who likes to watch beautiful basketball, I don't want the Cavs to win like this.

[MisterHibachi]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

yeah I don't know how anyone can be a basketball fan and not love both games in this series.

But I actually did a survey here about fandom, and Doc made it clear that his fandom takes a backseat to his analysis. So I understand how he feels differently.

But man I have been all-in on this series in a way I didn't expect to be. I'm not a fan of either team nor particularly a fan of any of the participants. I like Green and Mozgov to a degree, but otherwise I have no real attachment. But I find myself pulling for the Cavs when I'm watching the games.

[lorak]

For all the love Kerr was getting, I'd say Blatt is winning the coaching matchup at this point. And that's with far fewer options to work with.

That's not first time Blatt doing that. In Europe he made his reputation by doing a lot more than expected considering rosters/talent he had.

[PaulieWal]

Blatt is a very very good coach. Quite clearly the best coach LeBron has had. He's underrated now but he'll get the respect he deserves within a few seasons.

Quite clearly? I am gonna have to disagree with that. I am impressed with Blatt too but I am not ready to put him above Spo right away. If the Cavs lose yesterday today he's getting killed for his irrational love of TT and not playing Mozgov who was balling last night in the 4th.

[MisterHibachi]

Blatt is a very very good coach. Quite clearly the best coach LeBron has had. He's underrated now but he'll get the respect he deserves within a few seasons.

Quite clearly? I am gonna have to disagree with that. I am impressed with Blatt too but I am not ready to put him above Spo right away. If the Cavs lose yesterday today he's getting killed for his irrational love of TT and not playing Mozgov who was balling last night in the 4th.

I don't know, I think Blatt's coaching this post season has been better than any of Spo's big 3 seasons

[PaulieWal]

Blatt is a very very good coach. Quite clearly the best coach LeBron has had. He's underrated now but he'll get the respect he deserves within a few seasons.

Quite clearly? I am gonna have to disagree with that. I am impressed with Blatt too but I am not ready to put him above Spo right away. If the Cavs lose yesterday today he's getting killed for his irrational love of TT and not playing Mozgov who was balling last night in the 4th.

I don't know, I think Blatt's coaching this post season has been better than any of Spo's big 3 seasons

I think 2012 is better if I were to rank the seasons. I also now appreciate what he did for LeBron's offensive game a lot more now than I did during the Big 3 era. LeBron was historically efficient in 13-14 and a lot had to do with Spo's offense that he created around him.

And if you or others are getting impressed by what Blatt is doing with this injured Cavs teams well then Spo was also big when Bosh went down. There was pressure on him at the time from Riley and the others around him to go big and match the Pacers but he stuck to his guns and went with Battier as their new 4. The rest is history.

[SideshowBob]

Interesting stat I heard this morning(Mike and Mike) that since the fall over Ariza Curry is shooting something like 34% from the field and 33% from 3(these may not be exact, but essentially these are the figures). No idea if this is coincidence, good defense from the Cavs, or if something is bothering him that he's not talking about.

But apparently he is still human....

Love the heart Lebron and the Cavs are showing, but Curry has essentially his worst game of the year and they needed OT to get by the W's. Going home will help, and Lebron closed that game missing like 80% of his last 20 shots or something, but its still hard to see how they can win this. But IDK, they have managed to turn both games into their game. For all the love Kerr was getting, I'd say Blatt is winning the coaching matchup at this point. And that's with far fewer options to work with.

Including the game in which he fell:

Code: Select all

GP    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    TOV    3P%    TS%    TO%    GmSc
4     39.4  23.5   4.8    5.8    3.3   .289   .501   .122    14.9

In just the 3 games since:

Code: Select all

GP    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    TOV    3P%    TS%    TO%    GmSc
3     42.2  23.7   6.0    6.0    4.3   .219   .476   .148    14.7

[Doctor MJ]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

Thing is, part of what I mean is that the Cleveland offense here is just plain stupid. There are many ways to be better than what they are, and at this point I feel like LeBron is actually really comfortable in the stupidity because it basically relies on him to make stuff happen which means he gets to use his brain, but the rest of the team is underutilized. It's incredibly impressive if they can win a title like this in some ways, but this isn't an optimal way to play whether we're talking about aesthetics or actual efficacy, and I don't like teams simply accepting this type of play because it "works". No, it could work better, so make it work better.

I don't see anything as "ugly" if it's truly optimally effective. People may bemoan someone like Shaq just doing his thing, but him doing his thing was THE right thing to do. The ugliness here is just in my belief that as effective as the Cavs are right now, the way they've regressed to primitive status isn't a good thing, and this is something that started BEFORE the injuries took hold so that isn't really an excuse.

As I say this what I have to acknowledge is that this primitive offense is something that the Cavs were able to adopt essentially instantaneously and remained effective no matter the non-LeBron injuries the team had. As such, there is an aspect of rugged beauty in what LeBron is doing here. It's just that LeBron I don't think should be playing like this when he has serious firepower next to him.

[bondom34]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

Thing is, part of what I mean is that the Cleveland offense here is just plain stupid. There are many ways to be better than what they are, and at this point I feel like LeBron is actually really comfortable in the stupidity because it basically relies on him to make stuff happen which means he gets to use his brain, but the rest of the team is underutilized. It's incredibly impressive if they can win a title like this in some ways, but this isn't an optimal way to play whether we're talking about aesthetics or actual efficacy, and I don't like teams simply accepting this type of play because it "works". No, it could work better, so make it work better.

I don't see anything as "ugly" if it's truly optimally effective. People may bemoan someone like Shaq just doing his thing, but him doing his thing was THE right thing to do. The ugliness here is just in my belief that as effective as the Cavs are right now, the way they've regressed to primitive status isn't a good thing, and this is something that started BEFORE the injuries took hold so that isn't really an excuse.

As I say this what I have to acknowledge is that this primitive offense is something that the Cavs were able to adopt essentially instantaneously and remained effective no matter the non-LeBron injuries the team had. As such, there is an aspect of rugged beauty in what LeBron is doing here. It's just that LeBron I don't think should be playing like this when he has serious firepower next to him.

At this point? I'm not sure what "serious firepower" there is left. Kyrie and Love sure, but nobody else out there really qualifies for that monicker to me. JR can get hot but can kill you too, Shumpert isn't a huge threat, Delly definitely isn't. TT isn't, and Mozgov is more a defender than anything.

That said, I'm enjoying the gritty/ugly type of play so far, its sort of a weirdly refreshing viewing experience for me where I don't feel like either team is comfortable at all.

[Texas Chuck]

Doc,

I think sometimes theory is nice, but Lebron has to live in the real world. You can sit here and say with well thought reasoning how and why they should be doing something different, but I refuse to believe it is that simple and that Blatt, Lebron, and the Cavs organization are taht "stupid". No offense to you, who is obviously a very good basketball theorist, but I know they have some really smart people working for them too.

Or maybe I'm overly simplistic, but sometimes as Tyson says, "everyone has a plan until they hit get in the face". And then its whatever you gotta do to survive. I think that's what Cleveland and Lebron are doing. And rather than criticize him and them for playing suboptimally, maybe sometimes we need to just sit back and marvel and realize no other human being in the world could be doing this--ugly as it may be at times.

I think it's awesome to behold.

[bondom34]

And honestly, I'm really impressed w/ Blatt to boot. To this point he's done as much or more than Kerr and given circumstances I think he's done as well as he could.

[RSCD3_]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

Thing is, part of what I mean is that the Cleveland offense here is just plain stupid. There are many ways to be better than what they are, and at this point I feel like LeBron is actually really comfortable in the stupidity because it basically relies on him to make stuff happen which means he gets to use his brain, but the rest of the team is underutilized. It's incredibly impressive if they can win a title like this in some ways, but this isn't an optimal way to play whether we're talking about aesthetics or actual efficacy, and I don't like teams simply accepting this type of play because it "works". No, it could work better, so make it work better.

I don't see anything as "ugly" if it's truly optimally effective. People may bemoan someone like Shaq just doing his thing, but him doing his thing was THE right thing to do. The ugliness here is just in my belief that as effective as the Cavs are right now, the way they've regressed to primitive status isn't a good thing, and this is something that started BEFORE the injuries took hold so that isn't really an excuse.

As I say this what I have to acknowledge is that this primitive offense is something that the Cavs were able to adopt essentially instantaneously and remained effective no matter the non-LeBron injuries the team had. As such, there is an aspect of rugged beauty in what LeBron is doing here. It's just that LeBron I don't think should be playing like this when he has serious firepower next to him.

Havent you said something where curry's ORAPM maybe inflating his DRAPM because him carrying a load allows those around him to focus defensively and thus give more defensive impact. Well as others have said this primitive offense has been helping to boost their defense. By slowing down the game, theyve been able to limit the warriors insane transition offense.

The Cavs speeding it up, and trying to make it into a track race, heavily favors the warriors. Thus the primitive offense you describe has been a counter to the warriors transition game.

Alos their agressive defense on curry has led to the warriors wings initiating a lot of half court offense, because steph is either covered by delly who blatt basically told " never help at all, forget about any other players just guard curry " or if that is blown up he is doubled/hedged so he's forced to give up the ball. As we see now the result of that is the wings posting up and that has been that effective, theyve managed to do a really good job with limiting the effectiveness of the 4-3 advantage off these plays.

[MisterHibachi]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

Thing is, part of what I mean is that the Cleveland offense here is just plain stupid. There are many ways to be better than what they are, and at this point I feel like LeBron is actually really comfortable in the stupidity because it basically relies on him to make stuff happen which means he gets to use his brain, but the rest of the team is underutilized. It's incredibly impressive if they can win a title like this in some ways, but this isn't an optimal way to play whether we're talking about aesthetics or actual efficacy, and I don't like teams simply accepting this type of play because it "works". No, it could work better, so make it work better.

I don't see anything as "ugly" if it's truly optimally effective. People may bemoan someone like Shaq just doing his thing, but him doing his thing was THE right thing to do. The ugliness here is just in my belief that as effective as the Cavs are right now, the way they've regressed to primitive status isn't a good thing, and this is something that started BEFORE the injuries took hold so that isn't really an excuse.

As I say this what I have to acknowledge is that this primitive offense is something that the Cavs were able to adopt essentially instantaneously and remained effective no matter the non-LeBron injuries the team had. As such, there is an aspect of rugged beauty in what LeBron is doing here. It's just that LeBron I don't think should be playing like this when he has serious firepower next to him.

But he doesn't have serious firepower next to him. If he doesn't touch the ball on an offensive possession, it's a bad possession. All those isolations and slow downs are the game plan. You swing it around the perimeter without multiple creators and you're playing into the Warriors hands, they have the length, the discipline, the speed, everything to shut you down. A possession where LeBron swings it around is just not gonna end up being good because at some point you're asking JR, Shump, Delly and James Jones to create off the dribble. They cannot do that. In a team context, this is the best Cavs can do with this personnel. Deep shot clocks with methodical shots to slow the tempo down. I really don't know what other way there is to beat this Warriors team. You can't beat them by asking non-LeBron Cavaliers to consistently create. LeBron HAS to create everything and when the other team knows that, it gets ugly.

[ShotCreator]

I actually chuckled at the notion that LeBron James can't lead an offense, "that good". Funny stuff.

[kayess]

Some ugly basketball's been played, but it's made for some compelling drama.

Big picture wise, this was almost exactly the situation last year - LeBron going home with a 1-1 split, could've very easily been 2-0, against a better team - is GSW going to start playing like themselves (this is not to say that the Cavs haven't played a part in precisely the opposite happening, of course), or can the Cavs keep defending like they have and keep winning slogfests?

I don't think so - they almost have to get a couple of vintage LeBron performances, plus one more all-time great, 2012 ECF Game 6-like performance to get those 3 wins. Curry's just not going to be historically inept for much longer, too.

What's disheartening is I can feel like the guillotine's going to drop any minute - and then all the narratives will turn on LeBron as quickly as they anointed his performance as GOAT-like in the first two games. Like Doctor MJ, I want him to win so that people will finally shut up (and quite frankly, a win would transcend the usual "one-man band" runs in '94/'03/'11 and put him squarely in '86 Maradonna/Miracle on Ice level of upsets), but at the same time, I can't help but be sad that it takes this version of LeBron playing this way for him to finally achieve universal praise, when other versions have been more impactful/more beautiful to watch.

I guess it's fitting, in a way, for a guy who's been criticized for literally everything: being a ballhog/holding the ball too much, as well as passing too much, for not being good enough to lead a team alone with basically nothing around him, to taking a paycut just to join other stars, to actually leading a team alone with basically nothing around him, but shooting (and missing!) so much...

Pretty much everything that one critic or another has said is good/bad about him is on full display. It's just too good a storyline not to root for.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm the opposite, Doc. While beautiful basketball is fun, the grind out and the ugly games are just as good for me. I enjoy ugly games a lot, especially in the playoffs. Game 1 was ugly too, I didn't like the result but it was a great game nonetheless. Game 2 was even uglier and even better.

Thing is, part of what I mean is that the Cleveland offense here is just plain stupid. There are many ways to be better than what they are, and at this point I feel like LeBron is actually really comfortable in the stupidity because it basically relies on him to make stuff happen which means he gets to use his brain, but the rest of the team is underutilized. It's incredibly impressive if they can win a title like this in some ways, but this isn't an optimal way to play whether we're talking about aesthetics or actual efficacy, and I don't like teams simply accepting this type of play because it "works". No, it could work better, so make it work better.

I don't see anything as "ugly" if it's truly optimally effective. People may bemoan someone like Shaq just doing his thing, but him doing his thing was THE right thing to do. The ugliness here is just in my belief that as effective as the Cavs are right now, the way they've regressed to primitive status isn't a good thing, and this is something that started BEFORE the injuries took hold so that isn't really an excuse.

As I say this what I have to acknowledge is that this primitive offense is something that the Cavs were able to adopt essentially instantaneously and remained effective no matter the non-LeBron injuries the team had. As such, there is an aspect of rugged beauty in what LeBron is doing here. It's just that LeBron I don't think should be playing like this when he has serious firepower next to him.

At this point? I'm not sure what "serious firepower" there is left. Kyrie and Love sure, but nobody else out there really qualifies for that monicker to me. JR can get hot but can kill you too, Shumpert isn't a huge threat, Delly definitely isn't. TT isn't, and Mozgov is more a defender than anything.

That said, I'm enjoying the gritty/ugly type of play so far, its sort of a weirdly refreshing viewing experience for me where I don't feel like either team is comfortable at all.

I don't understand why several smart posters jumped in in response to my post by basically just attacking the last sentence and ignoring the paragraph it is attached to.

I'm not saying LeBron's playing next to great talent right now, but what we're seeing is an extreme version of what we were already seeing before the injuries. LeBron went from Miami playing a highly refined scheme based on getting the whole team involved, to playing Blatt's highly refined scheme based on getting the whole team involved, to much more simplistic stuff that just relies on LeBron making stuff happen. It really seems like LeBron isn't simply playing like this because he has to, he's doing it because he prefers it.

That's not a problem if that's truly the best way to run things, but I'm not convinced it is. And so what if it's really NOT the best way to do things generally, but it works okay in this particular finals because the team has less options and the Warriors aren't prepared for it? Short answer is, I expect LeBron to be pretty resistant to playing in more advanced schemes going forward and this bothers me.