James Harden is a superstar

[tsherkin]

McHale was a very good defender. Not an amazing rebounder and certainly not a great passer. I don't know that I'd call him a superstar. Amare, definitely not, because he's so weak as a defender and so average-to-mediocre as a rebounder (given his physical tools). Dantley, well, we know he was a weak defender who didn't pass well and Detroit got better when they got rid of him. Barkley, well, he was clearly a superstar from basically any angle apart from titles won.

As we've all mostly agreed, "superstar" is a fairly subjective label... but I think it's clear that you can't build a team around Amare, Dantley failed in Detroit because he didn't really do a lot besides score (sound familiar?), etc. Of them, McHale and Barkley are the best, Barkley better overall, and apart from Sir Charles, I'd find it really difficult to call any of them viable foundational players.

So I do kind of see G35's point on that one.

[MisterWestside]

Uh, Dantley was a superstar. He was one of the truly unique players who had the ability to give up as many points to the opponent that he scored on offense

[tsherkin]

Uh, Dantley was a superstar. He was one of the truly unique players who had the ability to give up as many points to the opponent that he scored on offense

I don't consider that a super ability, heh.

[rrravenred]

It's a very mild superpower.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghxnKDBadSk[/youtube]

Foundational players is a good way to look at it. I don't think anyone looks at Harden as a foundational player, which doesn't mean you can't build a good team in which he's the best part (e.g. Reggie Miller or Jermaine O'Neal).

[G35]

I mean, if Harden posted 25 PPG on above 65% TS%, that would be an absolutely incredible scoring year and it would take a lot of other things going against him for him not to be a superstar. As is, I don't think him being that efficient as a first option is likely. But he also is a good rebounder, and a very good playmaker for his position. He's not a great defender, but I don't think he's all that bad, not to the point where it's a huge negative. In terms of transcedental skills, his ability to get to the rim and to the line is pretty incredible.

Obviously we need to see more of him in more situations to make any definitive judgements though.

I would say that he's about average as a rebounder. There are quite a few SG types that average 4 reb's a game. His playmaking is not bad but he has an almost one for one assist to TO ratio. No he isn't a bad defender but nothing special. He is able to get to the line quite well, but for me that is not an ability that makes me label someone a superstar.

Charles Barkley is the player I would look at that was able to average 25ppg on amazing efficiency but that wasn't the only thing that made Charles great. He was an elite rebounder and he averaged over 4 assists. I don't think a player being an efficiency monster is enough to make them a superstar. You have to bring more than scoring to the table......

[rrravenred]

The assists/TO ratio will probably improve later in the season as Harden and the Rockets integrate each other into their offensive schemes and Harden is able to manipulate them to his own best advantage. Don't know if it'll improve Harden's playmaking to an elite level, though. Might (maybe should) also decrease his scoring volume.

[tsherkin]

I would say that he's about average as a rebounder.

This is correct.

He's a little above average as an offensive rebounder and a hair above average as a defensive rebounder (primarily if you look at 2-guards playing 20+ mpg this season), but we're talking like +0.5% and +0.4% ORB and DRB.

I don't think a player being an efficiency monster is enough to make them a superstar. You have to bring more than scoring to the table......

In deference, though, Harden does bring more than scoring; he's an excellent pick-and-roll playmaker. Not, you know, Nash/Paul/Deron-like, but still quite good.

[fallacy]

I would say that he's about average as a rebounder.

This is correct.

He's a little above average as an offensive rebounder and a hair above average as a defensive rebounder (primarily if you look at 2-guards playing 20+ mpg this season), but we're talking like +0.5% and +0.4% ORB and DRB.

I don't think a player being an efficiency monster is enough to make them a superstar. You have to bring more than scoring to the table......

In deference, though, Harden does bring more than scoring; he's an excellent pick-and-roll playmaker. Not, you know, Nash/Paul/Deron-like, but still quite good.

What stats back up the fact that he's an excellent playmaker this year? Because I can't find any

[Rapcity_11]

What stats back up the fact that he's an excellent playmaker this year? Because I can't find any

Averaging 4.9 APG. Which is among the leaders at SG.

Of those assists, 2.1 have led to shots at the rim, and 1.9 had led to 3's. Only 0.5 have led to shots between 10-23 feet. He's creating high efficiency shots for teammates.

Also watching him play you can see how often his teammates blow open shots. (Asik especially) They also don't have any knock down shooters.

[LarsV8]

I think you have to define what a superstar is first because it is very subjective. Role player is easy, all star (or just star is easy) but the line between star and superstar is very blurry.

[tsherkin]

What stats back up the fact that he's an excellent playmaker this year? Because I can't find any

It's borne out in game film if you watch him in the pick-and-roll (and mind that I said pick and roll playmaker). He's not a PG, of course, not a natural point. He's more like Wade in this sense, a guy who creates really well for himself, uses the screen with a high degree of efficacy and who hits open shooters and guys hovering around the rim well as he slashes to the rim around the screen. Rapcity covered the details, of course, but there it is.

[therealbig3]

Well, I don't think Harden is a superstar, but I think he has the talent for it. To me, a superstar is a top 10 player in the league, and Harden isn't there right now imo.

But he is an excellent player that is easily a "star". What's really annoying in this thread though are the people that bash him and say he's nothing but a good 6th man who can't be a 1st option, and then when they get proven wrong, they say "all I'm saying is that he's not a superstar". Let's debate whether or not he's a "superstar", but he's obviously a star player that is a perfectly good 1st option, no need to act like he hasn't proven himself in that regard.

[LarsV8]

What does he need to do that he is not doing now to be called a superstar?

The premiere wings right now are Durant, Melo, Kobe, and Lebron and how they compare statistically. Keep in mind Harden had an outlier game where he had the flu where he couldn't complete the game.

PPG
Kobe - 26.9
Harden (less flu game) - 26.75
Durant - 26.5
Melo - 25.3
Lebron - 25.2
Harden - 25.2

Rebounds
Durant - 9.4
Lebron - 8.8
Melo - 7
Kobe - 5
Harden - 4.2

Assists
Lebron - 6.5
Kobe - 5.1
Harden - 4.9
Durant - 4.5
Melo - 2

Steals
Harden - 1.7
Kobe - 1.4
Lebron - .9
Melo - .7
Durant - 2

Blocks
Durant - 1.36
Lebron - 1
Harden - .62
Melo - .5
Kobe - 0

Turnovers
Lebron - 2.4
Melo - 3
Kobe - 3.7
Durant - 3.8
Harden - 4.1

I mean the guy is right there with the best of them in most statistical categories. Rebounding is a little low, but he plays with two guys who are top 3 at thier position at rebounding (Parsons and Lin) and another who is top ten (Parsons). He is also completely new to his team so I would imagine his turnovers will go down and assists will go up with time.

You could point to winning but each of these other guys (except Melo) has a legit number 2 to play alongside (Wade, Howard, Westbrook), while Harden has Jeremy Lin.

I think the bottom line is that if Melo is going to be labeled a superstar then you have to put Harden in the category as well because they are very comparable statistically.

[fallacy]

What stats back up the fact that he's an excellent playmaker this year? Because I can't find any

It's borne out in game film if you watch him in the pick-and-roll (and mind that I said pick and roll playmaker). He's not a PG, of course, not a natural point. He's more like Wade in this sense, a guy who creates really well for himself, uses the screen with a high degree of efficacy and who hits open shooters and guys hovering around the rim well as he slashes to the rim around the screen. Rapcity covered the details, of course, but there it is.

oh, pick and roll only, gotcha. Because his overall playmaking stats are pretty crappy. Westbrook got annihilated last year for his playmaking but his stats last year are superior than Harden's this year.

[tsherkin]

oh, pick and roll only, gotcha. because his overall playmaking stats are pretty crappy. Westbrook got annihilated last year for his playmaking but his stats last year are superior than Harden's this year.

Eh? No they aren't. He produces a significant number of assists, and while it's true that he turns the ball over at an uncomfortable rate... but again, for the third straight year, his AST% has risen and he's tripling the average number of assists per game at the rim of players at his position (2.1 versus 0.7). Make that SGs who play 20+ mpg and he's still roughly doubling up (2.1 versus an average of 1.1). He's generating plenty of good opportunities for his teammates at the rim and from 3. His raw APG are +2.0 over SG average in 20+ mpg, too.

So no, it's not correct to say that his playmaking stats are crappy.

Meantime, Westbrook got annihilated last year because of a penchant for ill-timed shots and how poorly he made plays during the Finals, not during the RS. Also, Westbrook had better teammates to pass to, superior finishers than what Houston is fielding around Harden at the moment, so it's fairly easy to see how that would affect the two players in terms of their return on passing the ball to their respective teammates.

EDIT: Again, he's not the same caliber playmaker as someone like Nash, Deron, Paul, etc, but he's very good for a 2-guard.

[Rapcity_11]

What stats back up the fact that he's an excellent playmaker this year? Because I can't find any

It's borne out in game film if you watch him in the pick-and-roll (and mind that I said pick and roll playmaker). He's not a PG, of course, not a natural point. He's more like Wade in this sense, a guy who creates really well for himself, uses the screen with a high degree of efficacy and who hits open shooters and guys hovering around the rim well as he slashes to the rim around the screen. Rapcity covered the details, of course, but there it is.

oh, pick and roll only, gotcha. Because his overall playmaking stats are pretty crappy. Westbrook got annihilated last year for his playmaking but his stats last year are superior than Harden's this year.

To add more to my post, which you seem to have ignored:

Harden right now is at 2.9 assists per bad pass. http://www.82games.com/1213/12HOU5.HTM
So obviously, a lot of his turnovers are not on passes.

Also, Westbrook caught a lot of flak for his decision making more than anything. He also plays PG and gets more assists that are just a product of the system ala Rondo, Calderon, etc.

[OptimusOne6]

Are people really arguing who is a better playmaker between Harden and Westbrook? It's quite clearly Westbrook and all the numbers back it up. If you think Harden is the better playmaker then it is obvious that the media has brainwashed you into thinking so. Harden might be a more willing passer (probably not even anymore) but he certainly isn't a better or more skilled one.

I don't care how much worse your team is. Harden averages almost half the amount of apg than Westbrook does. Playing on a better team gives players some advantage, but not a huge one and certainly not close to double.

[Rapcity_11]

Are people really arguing who is a better playmaker between Harden and Westbrook? It's quite clearly Westbrook and all the numbers back it up. If you think Harden is the better playmaker then it is obvious that the media has brainwashed you into thinking so. Harden might be a more willing passer (probably not even anymore) but he certainly isn't a better or more skilled one.

I don't care how much worse your team is. Harden averages almost half the amount of apg than Westbrook does. Playing on a better team gives players some advantage, but not a huge one and certainly not close to double.

And the whole one guy plays PG while the other doesn't thing???

[OptimusOne6]

And the whole one guy plays PG while the other doesn't thing???

Harden pretty much is the PG of the team.

Lin and Douglas are the spot-up shooters at PG similar to Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole of the Heat. Occasionally, Harden shares the ball with Lin and spots up for him but more times than not, Lin spots up for Harden.

Harden doesn't put up as good passing numbers as Westbrook does because he isn't as good of a passer. It's not that complicated.

[Rapcity_11]

And the whole one guy plays PG while the other doesn't thing???

Harden pretty much is the PG of the team.

Lin and Douglas are the spot-up shooters at PG similar to Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole of the Heat. Occasionally, Harden shares the ball with Lin and spots up for him but more times than not, Lin spots up for Harden.

Harden doesn't put up as good passing numbers as Westbrook does because he isn't as good of a passer. It's not that complicated.

The fact still remains that Westbrook makes a ton more simple passes that result in assists than Harden does. The Rockets don't run many sets where Harden operates at the top of the key and hits guys curling off screens. It isn't nearly as simple as looking at assists which is what you seem to be doing.

Also, Lin is at 6.1 AP36. Significantly higher than Chalmers has been the past 2 years.

Question for you: Is Calderon a better playmaker than Westbrook?