The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[MagicFan32]

top 10 all time, but not top 5. he took a shortcut to get his rings, that's a fact. when was the last time a player in his class, in their prime jumped ship to another hall of famers team? hell the most recent one was charles barkley and kevin johnson was no d wade.

too caught up in name power and not watching the games. There was one HOF player on the Heat in this postseason. Get out of 2006 and join the rest of us in the present

Won last year with Bosh starting fewer than half the games in the playoffs because of injury and Wade on one knee delaying surgery, won this year with Bosh playing like hot garbage (outplayed in almost every series) and Wade even more limited. Leading his team in scoring, rebounding and assists and taking on a slew of varying defensive assignments. Beasting in elimination games consistently when facing elimination 5 times. This cast despite the names is not better nor more balanced than any of MJ or Kobe's title casts (hell people seem to not even mention anymore that Kobe was only the alpha in 2 of his rings when these debates come up), and he's asked to do more. Shortcut is the last word that applies.

I watched all the games, the fact of the matter is wade was a hall of fame player before lebron ever went to miami, this is almost unprecedented in the history of the league. if it wasn't for chris bosh lebron is sitting at home, getting crucified right now, so rip him all you want but bosh ultimately is a major reason lebron won this title

[Rasho_libre]

Fanbots are killing one of the few great threads here on realgm.

[picc]

Lebron doesn't really need to work on anything game-wise. He just has to get better mentally. Thats the only reason this finals series went so long. Just develop more confidence.

[D.Brasco]

The Heat are finished winning titles with this team. I'm hoping they make the mistake of thinking they can win it again next season by bringing back mostly the same core, because they won't stand a chance. I think LeBron has peaked and his best seasons are behind him, Wade is finished, and Bosh isn't good enough to be a 2nd option on a championship caliber team.

What's crazy to me is that the Heat lost every important game in this series and still won. Typically the winner of Games 1, 3, and 5 will win the series. They lost all those games and still won. Funny part is back in 2011 they won Games 1 and 3 and lost the series

Silly post. If you want to say the Heat aren't winning next year, it would be a lot smarter to point to the supporting cast being old rather than the big 3. At worst, Lebron will be equally good next year, Bosh will be the same, and Wade's play is entirely dependent on health. If he's healthy next year in the playoffs, he'll be 10x better, even if he has an extra year of age. The smarter question to ask is whether 37 year old Allen, 34 year old Battier, and 34 year old Chris Andersen (also, to a much smaller extent, 33 year old Mike Miller and 33 year old Haslem) can still bring it next year, or what Pat Riley might bring in to replace those guys.

Those guys are more readily replaceable, the big 3 aren't.

1) No there's no guarantee LeBron will be "equally as good at worst" . People were arguing this as the GOAT season and you think he's just going to walk into next season do it again. Everyone gets burnt out eventually

What exactly are you even laughing at? People argued 2012 was his GOAT and he came back even better. He's going to be only 29 at the end of next season assuming he's even 10% worst he'll still be by far the best player in the league.

As for the rest of your non-sense that is literally what everyone said after 2011, then 2012 and now you're saying it in 2013 do you see a trend here?

[JulesWinnfield]

top 10 all time, but not top 5. he took a shortcut to get his rings, that's a fact. when was the last time a player in his class, in their prime jumped ship to another hall of famers team? hell the most recent one was charles barkley and kevin johnson was no d wade.

too caught up in name power and not watching the games. There was one HOF player on the Heat in this postseason. Get out of 2006 and join the rest of us in the present

Won last year with Bosh starting fewer than half the games in the playoffs because of injury and Wade on one knee delaying surgery, won this year with Bosh playing like hot garbage (outplayed in almost every series) and Wade even more limited. Leading his team in scoring, rebounding and assists and taking on a slew of varying defensive assignments. Beasting in elimination games consistently when facing elimination 5 times. This cast despite the names is not better nor more balanced than any of MJ or Kobe's title casts (hell people seem to not even mention anymore that Kobe was only the alpha in 2 of his rings when these debates come up), and he's asked to do more. Shortcut is the last word that applies.

I watched all the games, the fact of the matter is wade was a hall of fame player before lebron ever went to miami, this is almost unprecedented in the history of the league. if it wasn't for chris bosh lebron is sitting at home, getting crucified right now, so rip him all you want but bosh ultimately is a major reason lebron won this title

In the 4 years prior to Lebron coming, Miami went 149-179 with no playoff series victories, including a 15 win season where Wade played 50+ games. Let's get that straight. 2006 was a distant memory when he came to town and is so now more than ever. The version of D-Wade who Lebron won this title with was certainly nothing resembling a Hall of fame player, that ship left 2 years ago. And in all reality, Wade was one of the weaker 2nd fiddles on a title team this season when judged on postseason production in recent memory.

Lebron has done more for Wade's legacy than vice versa. And I can't imagine Wade would have it easier from a health standpoint if he was forced to be an alpha. And congrats to Bosh on a big board. If he wasn't so brutal otherwise this run wouldn't have been nearly as hard. The image of Bosh from this postseason from a macro perspective will be him getting completely destroyed by Hibbert and Duncan, weak sauce on the boards and sporadic at best contributions in general

[MagicFan32]

is wade a hall of famer regardless of lebron ever showing up, yes or no?

[JulesWinnfield]

is wade a hall of famer regardless of lebron ever showing up, yes or no?

Of course, but thats rather irrelevant if used as a weapon against Lebron in regards to supporting cast when you look at D-Wade right now, and the player he was in this postseason

I mean its fine for Magic (the guy in your handle) to inherit Kareem at birth, but lets penalize Lebron for leaving a lotto team cast, wasting 7 years there, to now win titles with a post prime breaking down D-wade who couldn't get out of round 1 for nearly half a decade before Lebron came despite his HOF talent.

And from a fit perspective it has never been the most ideal

The whole lets diminish him because his cast is loaded is so off the mark its not even funny. His versatility is the glue to this team and he wears as many hats as any one ever

[Heej]

Wade really needs to enter next post season healthy, and if that means shutting him down for the last 6 games to nurse little injuries so be it. Those 7 game series would have been 5 or 6 game series' if Wade wasn't battling banged up knees.

[Mohanad]

Dwade averaged 20/4/4 this finals and 23/7/7 the last finals.

Both all-star numbers and not to mention his demon series against the Mavs

In his last 8 seasons

8-time all star
3× NBA champion:
NBA Finals MVP
NBA scoring title
NBA All-Star Game MVP
8× All-NBA teams

Not to mention the momentum changing play's he has had, his stellar defense, and put on his best performances when Miami needed him most (Game 7's, down 2-1 in the finals, down 2-1 against Indy last year on the road when Bosh was injured, 2006 down 13 in the 4th while down 2-0 in the series and etc etc..) His rings aren't tainted, he's not some "sidekick", and for sure as hell is a hall of famer.

[JulesWinnfield]

Your 2012 finals numbers aren't accurate. And the 2011 finals where we all kill Lebron for was comparable and possibly better in defeat than Wade's 2013 in victory

And you're 2 for 3 on your last comment. He is a hall of famer, his rings aren't tainted (don't know who said that), but he damn well certainly is a sidekick on this team, and in reality not a particularly strong one when judged against other repeat/threepeat title teams since at least the first bulls threepeat. Give me 91-93 Pippen, 00-02 Kobe, hell even 09/10 Pau over 12/13 Wade anyday. And from a fit standpoint all those guys fit better next to their alpha as well. 96-98 Pippen vs 12/13 Wade would be at least somewhat closer given how banged up Pip was in those postseason runs at times, but I'd still go edge Pippen. I'll leave 94/95 Rockets out of it since both casts were different

There are still vast stretches where the Heat play better with Wade not even in the picture and the floor spaced better. They are great with him at peak efficacy, but that doesn't happen often anymore

[therealbig3]

Yeah, I really don't see what's so hard to understand that Wade as of right now isn't all that good. Why do people keep bringing up his career numbers or career accomplishments? Yeah, Wade has had a great career, and at one point, was an amazing player. He's not that guy anymore though, not even close.

Acting as if 13 Wade is just as good as his previous seasons is like wondering how the GOAT could miss the playoffs 2 straight years in 02 and 03.

The fact is, as far as "star" 2nd options go, 13 Wade is one of the weakest ones ever.

I'm not going to rag on him too much for his 12 playoffs, because even though he underperformed in those playoffs as well, he still played at an overall high level and was a very clear positive impact player, unlike in this year's playoffs.

[TheChosen618]

I'm not going to rag on him too much for his 12 playoffs, because even though he underperformed in those playoffs as well, he still played at an overall high level and was a very clear positive impact player, unlike in this year's playoffs.

Wade was pretty much in Lebron's way for most of this playoffs. The stats already indicate how Lebron and the Heat were just way better with him off the court.

As I have been saying for a while now, they really should consider bringing him off the bench. I'm not sure if he'll accept it or if the Heat will do it, but the team would be absolutely better that way.

Wade is probably the weakest 2nd option since 03 Parker.

[BIRDMAN BIRDMAN]

2013 Finals:

With shooting sleeve: 3-1
Without shooting sleeve: 1-2

Yup, it's the sleeve alright. Told y'all!

[therealbig3]

I just looked it up, and yeah, I'd say in the 3pt era (1980-present), 13 Wade was CLEARLY the worst "star" 2nd option on a championship team. The only 2nd options I'd take him over would be whoever the hell was Hakeem's 2nd option in 1994, whoever the hell was Duncan's 2nd option in 2003, whoever the hell was the Pistons' 2nd option in 2004 (did they even have a clear 1st option?), and 2011 Terry.

So Wade was basically a role player.

[thebottomline]

The past two seasons LeBron has led the Heat to postseason ORTGs of +8.4 in 2012 and +8.2 in 2013 relative to opponent DRTG. This year he played against the 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 12th best defenses, and without any consistency from his teammates.

Those numbers are right around prime Bird's Celtics (+8.2 in '86, +8.5 in '87), but a notch below prime Magic's Lakers (+9.8 in '85, +10.5 in '87, +9.1 in '89) and prime Jordan's Bulls (+11.0 in '91, +8.9 in '93). LeBron played against the toughest average postseason defense of any of them though and had no McHale/Parish or Kareem/Worthy, or even a Pippen in terms of consistency this year.

Even with the shaky jumper at times these past two playoffs, LeBron has orchestrated some elite offenses.

[trainwreckog]

the massive advantage lebron has over mj is that along with no hand-checking, lebron enjoys an era of vastly superior 3-pt shooting.

there were 30k three-point attempts in the nba in 1998, and 50k this year. that is a massive leap. the game has changed and most teams focus on getting more 3-point looks now as a way of having a more effective offense.

this shift in focus to 3-pt shooting has created optimal floor-spacing, as defenders cannot help off their man and/or pack the paint like was the standard in previous eras when the 3-pt shooting was not nearly as big of a factor in the game or in a game plan.

this trend is reflected in the teams lebron has played for - each of his teams since 2008 has had at least 5 players that averaged at least o.9 three-point makes a game. in comparison, jordan only had 1 teammate average 0.9 or more three-point make per game during the first 3-peat. jordan had 3 teammates average at least 0.9 makes per game during the second 3-peat but the line was closer those years. (stats are from basketball-reference.)

and you can see the change in the way the game is played - dribble penetration is much more effective with the superior spacing, and this coupled with no hand-checking gives lebron a massive advantage over the inferior spacing and more physical play mj had to deal with.

watching highlights of this year's finals and then comparing it to say, the 1996 Finals versus the Sonics is astonishing - lebron gets wide open 18 footers, while mj got pushed, bumped, held, grabbed, hand-checked, forearmed, and every other tactic in the book to prevent him from shooting period.

watch here as mj gets abused physically.

despite the triangle, still crappy spacing compared to today's game, and certainly no free 18 footers for mj.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw[/youtube]

[PCProductions]

What about the "illegal defense" rule? Didn't that help Jordan?

[therealbig3]

Jordan had an aggressiveness and decisiveness about him that LeBron doesn't, and yes, that's why he would succeed in this era with more 3pt shooters around him as well.

But I'm watching those clips, and I see a paint that's much easier to get into than today, because of today's zone defenses. I see Jordan forcing a lot of crap shots against double and triple teams that he doesn't need to. I still see shooters in Pip (he loved the shortened line), Kerr, and Kukoc. I see Jordan getting a lot of star treatment and ticky tack foul calls that LeBron doesn't really get. And the physicality of the defenders...LeBron goes through the same thing, are you kidding me? He's constantly getting pushed, held, bumped, and knocked around.

The one thing that's different is yes, they're not conceding the open midrange jumper to Jordan...but there's also not nearly the same amount of rim protection as we saw in the Finals and in the ECF, and Jordan is clearly not as willing of a passer as LeBron.

But I have no problem admitting that peak Jordan was a better player than LeBron (although 13 LeBron>96 Jordan). It's just that this constant attempt to prop up the 80s and 90s and act as if they were so obviously superior to the 00s is annoying. Every other creation in the history of mankind evolves over time except for basketball, apparently.

[trainwreckog]

What about the "illegal defense" rule? Didn't that help Jordan?

the reason it was eliminated is because the refs never called it.

did you watch the sonics video? there were probably more than two-dozen illegal defenses in there. it was kind of like when they gradually stopped calling carrying.

[trainwreckog]

Jordan had an aggressiveness and decisiveness about him that LeBron doesn't, and yes, that's why he would succeed in this era with more 3pt shooters around him as well.

But I'm watching those clips, and I see a paint that's much easier to get into than today, because of today's zone defenses. I see Jordan forcing a lot of crap shots against double and triple teams that he doesn't need to. I still see shooters in Pip (he loved the shortened line) and Kukoc. I see Jordan getting a lot of star treatment and ticky tack foul calls that LeBron doesn't really get. And the physicality of the defenders...LeBron goes through the same thing, are you kidding me? He's constantly getting pushed, held, bumped, and knocked around.

The one thing that's different is yes, they're not conceding the open midrange jumper to Jordan...but there's also not nearly the same amount of rim protection as we saw in the Finals and in the ECF, and Jordan is clearly not as willing of a passer as LeBron.

But I have no problem admitting that peak Jordan was a better player than LeBron (although 13 LeBron>96 Jordan). It's just that this constant attempt to prop up the 80s and 90s and act as if they were so obviously superior to the 00s is annoying. Every other creation in the history of mankind evolves over time except for basketball, apparently.

i disagree with the underlined. teams don't play zone defense today any more than they used to. and the personnel protecting the rim was vastly superior in say 1998 than it is today. just compare the centers and pf's from back then to today. it's not close.

and teams are forced to stay at home on the 3-pt shooters, so packing the paint is harder to do today. 30k attempts in 1998 to 50k today is a massive leap - a totally different game really. you basically can't pack the paint in today's game.

in the 80's and 90's, packing the paint like the spurs did to lebron was a standard, not some gimmick.

i agree with what you are saying about mj having more energy when he catches the ball - he doesn't stand and wait and decide like lebron - mj catches the ball and is making quick fakes or is already gone before you can blink.

portland tried guarding mj the way the spurs did. it didn't work. i suspect that is the way a lot of teams would have to guard mj with no-hand checking and the better floor spacing.