2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[MyUniBroDavis]

Vogel deserves a mention for COY. Yes, he had LBJ & AD, but if we forget hindsight - this Lakers team had a lot of doubts. The roster construction seemed questionable at best. The espn preseason "expert" predictions had them as a 5-seed and 4th most likely to win the title. Also had them pegged as potential "team turmoil".

He got everyone to buy into a defensive identity and give consistent effort on that end - Bron included. It feels like he's getting the best out of players that were big question marks before the season - Dwight most notably, but also guys like Bradley & KCP. He's gotten Kuzma invested as an off-ball roleplayer rather than concerned about touches.

But beyond the more nebulous "identity" stuff, I've been impressed for the most part with his schemes and adjustments in the playoffs. Things like altering his starting lineup in the Houston series after a win rather than waiting for a loss. Going into the playoffs, defending dynamic guards was thought to be a potential weakness - but they handled Lillard, Harden, and Murray pretty impressively. He did a great job recognizing matching Dwight's minutes to Jokic's would limit his effectiveness and get him in foul trouble. Looking forward to see how they approach Miami.

COY often seems to be about who achieves the most with what we think of as a less-talented roster. But there's something to be said for coming into a high-pressure/high-expectations situation and not screwing it up (so far). We saw no scandals, no subtweeting, no questionable coach collisions, etc. On a team with LeBron magnified by the Laker franchise spotlight, that's notable.

Malone was better than vogel in the wcf, so no.

I mean its not as if vogel was bad outside of game 3. Game 1 def had the better overall gameplan, game 5 countered what malone had been doing in d (which wasnt exactly a mind blowing tactic). The defensive gameplan were good g1,4,5, and we shut doen their offensive execution for the most part murray just hit some insane shots

Malone is a better coach and rhe lakers usually arent prepared at scouting set plays outside of bron and rondo, but vogels def been a top 10 coach this year

[MyUniBroDavis]

This is 2020 AD playing in seconf half of the year 2015 ADs role and its hilarious lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

AD was genuinly absurd defensively today. Probably the best defensive game from him this playoffs which is saying something. Offense he played a role i like him playing and even though he missed a few easy ones still ended with 34 points

34-9-5-3 on 1 turnover, 66.9TS, with DPOY++ defense. Not to mention he rebounded 2 of his missed shots. Only 1 foul which i think was clean on adebayo.

Bron was pretty great too, missed more easy ones but went against a harder d for him, still finished with
25-13-9 63TS, prolly could have had more assists and only 2 turnovers, with solid D

I think davis was clearly the best player today but itll be interesting to see who wins fmvp assuming the lakers dont choke

Tyler herro went 0 iq at times but gaddamn he was a bucket

AD being a weird psuedo wing at times on defense is kind of odd but it definately worked really well today

[Dupp]

I wanna vote lebron but I think I’m very much leaning towards AD. His actual play in the post season has just been better.



Is lebron still a better player? I think probably. It’s really strange because he’s playing great and just doing what he has to to win. However it’s been a relatively “easy” post season run for lebron where he hasn’t had to do anything historic and his load and minutes are way down.

Does that mean he still can’t? I don’t think so but it’s really hard to have a sense of what highs he can actually still reach.

[Homer38]

What are the chance that LBJ and Davis finish 1 and 2 for the players of the years awards?

[Dupp]

What are the chance that LBJ and Davis finish 1 and 2 for the players of the years awards?

99%

[Heej]

I think it's close enough and LeBron's had series where he was better that the entire body of work gonna have to go to LeBron for me. From end to end he's been having just a spectacular 2-way season and got this team to click at just the right time.

[Doctor MJ]

What are the chance that LBJ and Davis finish 1 and 2 for the players of the years awards?

That seems the most likely thing for my ballot.

Pretty sure the only time I ever did that before was also a Laker pair.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it's close enough and LeBron's had series where he was better that the entire body of work gonna have to go to LeBron for me. From end to end he's been having just a spectacular 2-way season and got this team to click at just the right time.

For me as well. Almost certainly going to have LeBron over AD.

Feels like AD is going to be the MVP candidate going forward though. Really happy seeing him take this leap.

[Heej]

I think it's close enough and LeBron's had series where he was better that the entire body of work gonna have to go to LeBron for me. From end to end he's been having just a spectacular 2-way season and got this team to click at just the right time.

For me as well. Almost certainly going to have LeBron over AD.

Feels like AD is going to be the MVP candidate going forward though. Really happy seeing him take this leap.

100% agree, and it seems he's been groomed for it by everyone in the locker room. Guys like Markieff Morris and Rondo telling him every day he's the best player in the world, LeBron giving up number 23 to him next season, the shot attempts he's being given. I wanna see his ballhandling make a leap this off-season and we may be talking something approximating Prime Garnett if I may be so hyperbolic

I just wonder if Giannis isn't watching this Heat team and thinking to himself, "I can bring that squad to the mountaintop." I'd kill to see Spo work with that. Only thing is the 3-point shooting from the 3 best guys would be suspect.

[Doctor MJ]

I think it's close enough and LeBron's had series where he was better that the entire body of work gonna have to go to LeBron for me. From end to end he's been having just a spectacular 2-way season and got this team to click at just the right time.

For me as well. Almost certainly going to have LeBron over AD.

Feels like AD is going to be the MVP candidate going forward though. Really happy seeing him take this leap.

100% agree, and it seems he's been groomed for it by everyone in the locker room. Guys like Markieff Morris and Rondo telling him every day he's the best player in the world, LeBron giving up number 23 to him next season, the shot attempts he's being given. I wanna see his ballhandling make a leap this off-season and we may be talking something approximating Prime Garnett if I may be so hyperbolic

There's a word for AD that you don't often hear about a potential "best player in the world":

Sweet.

As in sweet-natured. And the cool thing is that in this rare circumstance where an extreme talent has to be coaxed toward greatness, everybody gets a unique chance to share in his greatness.

As amazing as LeBron is, and as much as he's got an inner circle he's literally "made", everyone associated with LeBron feels like a coat-tail rider. Like there's an asterisk next to all of them.

Well...except for AD right now.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

That's an interesting way to look at things though it's still theoretical rather than actual on court production and impact. If the thing about him wanting Chris Paul gone is part of what you mean by the decisions he's made, then that's not something I'm going to beat a dead horse on especially considering the amount of speculation behind it.

Excellent observation. The more you think about the criteria I've specified here, or really any criteria, the more it becomes clear that there are edge cases where we'll disagree on whether they should be included or not. That's perfectly fine by me.

What I'd say though is that when a player shapes his own context, if that shaping a) helps superficial impact but b) hurts the team, it's problematic to look only at impact because it incentivizes anti-team behavior.

Question re: player shaping their own context.

Do you also give credit to players who positively shape their context? Like LeBron making the Lakers trade for Davis and empowering him, making them fire Walton/hire Vogel. Or Davis forcing his way to LA. Or Curry allowing the warriors to sign Durant and empowering him.

[Doctor MJ]

That's an interesting way to look at things though it's still theoretical rather than actual on court production and impact. If the thing about him wanting Chris Paul gone is part of what you mean by the decisions he's made, then that's not something I'm going to beat a dead horse on especially considering the amount of speculation behind it.

Excellent observation. The more you think about the criteria I've specified here, or really any criteria, the more it becomes clear that there are edge cases where we'll disagree on whether they should be included or not. That's perfectly fine by me.

What I'd say though is that when a player shapes his own context, if that shaping a) helps superficial impact but b) hurts the team, it's problematic to look only at impact because it incentivizes anti-team behavior.

Question re: player shaping their own context.

Do you also give credit to players who positively shape their context? Like LeBron making the Lakers trade for Davis and empowering him, making them fire Walton/hire Vogel. Or Davis forcing his way to LA. Or Curry allowing the warriors to sign Durant and empowering him.

General answer: Absolutely, and I think I'm going to have some decisions to make in the years to come about LeBron. He's successfully operating in a dimension here that most guys just aren't at all. This isn't a muscle Jordan ever developed and frankly it's not because he couldn't have. I really feel like he retired in '97-98 because he couldn't imagine doing something like this.

On the specifics:

LeBron's going to get big ups for me this year on this. Last year it hurt him. My opinion of last year is now informed by this year so it's hard to really ever hold it against him again, but he really wasn't building anything last year. It was more like he was weeding.

Davis forcing his way to LA. Oh no, Davis doesn't get extra credit for that in my book. In fact, while the Pelicans deserved to lose him, I hold the way he left there against him. Not a ton, but it's red on the ledger.

Curry in GS with Durant. Absolutely. By contrast, Green helping Durant get there was a positive but then the way he went crazy on Durant later is a negative. Not sure how that all adds up.

[Dupp]

Who do you guys think has been the best player in each playoff series between lebron and AD? Without much reflection it kind of feels to me like AD has been the best guy in each series so far. Not by a massive margin.

[HeartBreakKid]

Giannis is getting really underrated this season. I think people should look into more context with how much resources it takes to slow him down - that's not to mention he actually can still score even against defenses stacked in the paint. He was destroying Miami before he hurt himself.

The injury itself might be a good reason to peg him, but this idea that he is some faux star and playoff fodder is ridiculously premature and not really based in reality. He did not do any worse against Miami than Davis did in his last series as a Pelican against GSW ( exact same ranked defense as Miami, and both have the ability to ramp it up in the post season). Actually, Giannis' numbers are better...

I almost feel bad that Giannis might get kicked out of the top 5 - with guys like Jimmy Butler getting possible mentions?! Jimmy Butler over Giannis in 2020!? I love Jimmy Butler and was very indifferent toward Giannis for both his MVP seasons...but good is good to me. I'm surprised nobody has considered Jamal Murray over Giannis at this point.

I think we might be getting to a point where people are over valueing jump shooting in the face of every other aspect of the game. I say this as the best player in the league (LBJ) isn't much of a jump shooter at all this season, if he wasn't so dominant people would say that he sucks because he can't shoot also.

[freethedevil]

For me as well. Almost certainly going to have LeBron over AD.

Feels like AD is going to be the MVP candidate going forward though. Really happy seeing him take this leap.

100% agree, and it seems he's been groomed for it by everyone in the locker room. Guys like Markieff Morris and Rondo telling him every day he's the best player in the world, LeBron giving up number 23 to him next season, the shot attempts he's being given. I wanna see his ballhandling make a leap this off-season and we may be talking something approximating Prime Garnett if I may be so hyperbolic

There's a word for AD that you don't often hear about a potential "best player in the world":

Sweet.

As in sweet-natured. And the cool thing is that in this rare circumstance where an extreme talent has to be coaxed toward greatness, everybody gets a unique chance to share in his greatness.

As amazing as LeBron is, and as much as he's got an inner circle he's literally "made", everyone associated with LeBron feels like a coat-tail rider. Like there's an asterisk next to all of them.

Well...except for AD right now.

Yeah, this seems liek complete and utter bs to me. Cheesiness is often associated with "sweetness" but it doesn't really prove it. Davis strikes me form all his actions and choices as the exact sort of posh-wanna be private school diva Lebron's been since he first left cleveland.

Giannis, Curry, Pre 16 KD, ect. are players I'd characterize as genuinely sweet natured to some extent. I don't see how AD fits that label at all.

[Doctor MJ]

Giannis is getting really underrated this season. I think people should look into more context with how much resources it takes to slow him down - that's not to mention he actually can still score even against defenses stacked in the paint. He was destroying Miami before he hurt himself.

The injury itself might be a good reason to peg him, but this idea that he is some faux star and playoff fodder is ridiculously premature and not really based in reality. He did not do any worse against Miami than Davis did in his last series as a Pelican against GSW ( exact same ranked defense as Miami, and both have the ability to ramp it up in the post season). Actually, Giannis' numbers are better...

I almost feel bad that Giannis might get kicked out of the top 5 - with guys like Jimmy Butler getting possible mentions?! Jimmy Butler over Giannis in 2020!? I love Jimmy Butler and was very indifferent toward Giannis for both his MVP seasons...but good is good to me. I'm surprised nobody has considered Jamal Murray over Giannis at this point.

I think we might be getting to a point where people are over valueing jump shooting in the face of every other aspect of the game. I say this as the best player in the league (LBJ) isn't much of a jump shooter at all this season, if he wasn't so dominant people would say that he sucks because he can't shoot also.

For the record it's unlikely he'll be below 4th on my list. He's been slowly rising as other fall.

[E-Balla]

Who do you guys think has been the best player in each playoff series between lebron and AD? Without much reflection it kind of feels to me like AD has been the best guy in each series so far. Not by a massive margin.

I'd say LeBron was better against Portland IMO. But Davis was playing only like 29 mpg because they were killing them so bad.

[Doctor MJ]

I wanna vote lebron but I think I’m very much leaning towards AD. His actual play in the post season has just been better.



Is lebron still a better player? I think probably. It’s really strange because he’s playing great and just doing what he has to to win. However it’s been a relatively “easy” post season run for lebron where he hasn’t had to do anything historic and his load and minutes are way down.

Does that mean he still can’t? I don’t think so but it’s really hard to have a sense of what highs he can actually still reach.

I think it's worth asking how much you want to in effect penalize a guy for coasting through the playoffs in a cakewalk after he was the clear best player in the regular season and he's the clear team leader in the playoffs. What exactly is the penalty for?

[dreamshake]

I almost feel bad that Giannis might get kicked out of the top 5 - with guys like Jimmy Butler getting possible mentions?! Jimmy Butler over Giannis in 2020!? I love Jimmy Butler and was very indifferent toward Giannis for both his MVP seasons...but good is good to me. I'm surprised nobody has considered Jamal Murray over Giannis at this point.

This kinda feels like you just constructed this narrative. The only comments I've seen about Jimmy or Murray in this thread specifically mention they won't make top 5. Seems like LBJ & AD are pretty likely 1 & 2 from what I'm seeing with Jokic, Giannis & Harden probably filling out the top 5 in some order. I'll be pretty surprised if Giannis finishes lower than 4th, which doesn't seem like a total injustice.