James Harden is a superstar

[slick_watts]

2012, Westbrook was not the primary facilitator of the team because of Harden's expanded role. Harden became the primary playmaker.

It was more so because it wasn't Westbrook's role on the team anymore to be the primary facilitator anymore. When it is Westbrook's job to be the primary facilitator, he averages about 8+ APG, when it isn't, he averages less than 6.

This is a misconception. I do not know how much Thunder basketball you have watched, but I don't know how anyone could come away with this impression.

2011-12

Russell Westbrook PER36
Harden on Court: 19.7 FGA, 5.4 AST
Harden off Court: 19.4 FGA, 5.9 AST

If Westbrook's assists dropped because James Harden was the 'primary facilitator', how come his assist average and shot attempts were almost identical with him in the game and out of the game? If what you are saying is true, Westbrook would see a dip in usage with Harden on the court and it just wasn't the case.

On the other hand...

2011-12

James Harden PER36
Westbrook on Court: 8.9 FGA, 3.7 AST
Westbrook off Court: 16.3 FGA, 5.2 AST

James Harden's usage explodes with Westbrook off the court, and is marginalized severely with Westbrook on the court. If James Harden was the 'primary facilitator' wouldn't his splits look a lot like Westbrook's above?

The truth of the matter was that Westbrook's assists per game dropped because the big men he played with primarily went from Nenad Krstic and Jeff Green to Serge Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins. In 2010-11, Krstic alone was assisted on 1.5 FGM on mid range shots per game. Most of those courtesy of Westbrook. Westbrook's assists are back up this season because Ibaka has been far more prolific in the offense - sinking over one full FGM from mid-range a game and he's been assisted more at the rim.

[OptimusOne6]

This is a misconception. I do not know how much Thunder basketball you have watched, but I don't know how anyone could come away with this impression.

I remember talking to you about this matter in another thread.

Other posters made great posts to address your theory.

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I have to disagree with you as well.

Harden not being in the game is kind of irrelevant because the rest of OKC roster wasn't very good offensively. Now you could say that Westbrook assist went down because after the Jeff Green trade the Thunder had worse offensive talent. But it can't be ignored that Harden did run the show and at times almost play PG.

Plus there really no correlation to shooting less and that meaning your assist going up, For example Steve Nash will like match or be under his FGA attempts in Phoenix. I seriously doubt his assist go up because he will likely have to share the ball with Kobe. Harden assist per minute are up despite his FGA per minute being way up. The reality him having the ball moreWestbrook and Durant both are able to run the offense more. Them having the ball is a lot more important than Ibaka now making shots. Add in the fact that unlike Harden. Kevin Martin plays off the ball as well as any guard in the league. Has over 70% of his shots assisted. You in essence see why Durant and Westbrook assist are up.

I said before the year that I thought Westbrook would average between 8 to 9 assist this year. It was really based on him being allowed to play more like he did prior to the expansion of Harden's role. I thought a year ago Westbrook played off the ball to much. I understood it because Harden was so good in PNR. Without Harden I think both Westbrook and Durant are allowed to be the players they are capable of being. In reality Westbrook is one big shooting night from being right around the same amount of shots per game he was a year ago. Him going down 3 assist per game and then right back up 3 assist a game is not just about shot attempts.

Your usage of stats are misleading of the argument.

[Krodis]

hoopdata's shot locations are updated. He's down to 6.7 attempts at the rim, no longer leading the league in makes at the rim (and only shooting 63% from there now), but he's also down to 2.5 attempts from 16-23 feet, and under 6 from 3. But his foul draw rate is up near last year's insane levels after the Knicks game.

[tsherkin]

FWIW:

Harden is still gettingto the rim at will, though; he is currently 8th in the league in FGA/g at the rim, behind Dwight, Z-Bo, Melo, Cousins, Westbrook, Monroe and Love. You'll notice there is one guard there, and while Melo is the smallest forward, he's playing the 4 this year and loves to post. He's ahead of Lebron in this category, too (though Lebron is doing more when he gets there).

For a perimeter guard to be on that list is something special. Now, here's the fun bit: of that group, only Dwight is shooting a higher percentage.

[JordansBulls]

FWIW:

Harden is still gettingto the rim at will, though; he is currently 8th in the league in FGA/g at the rim, behind Dwight, Z-Bo, Melo, Cousins, Westbrook, Monroe and Love. You'll notice there is one guard there, and while Melo is the smallest forward, he's playing the 4 this year and loves to post. He's ahead of Lebron in this category, too (though Lebron is doing more when he gets there).

For a perimeter guard to be on that list is something special. Now, here's the fun bit: of that group, only Dwight is shooting a higher percentage.

It is amazing that Harden is getting roughly 10 FTA already as the man. Not many stars in history have even gotten that and he certainly doesn't drive as much as many other legends all time.

[Krodis]

Like a few teams earlier this year, the Raptors are really trying hard to keep Harden out of the lane. But unlike a few games earlier this year, because his shot is falling and the other Rockets are playing well, it's not really working out for them. (Well, I mean, they are keeping Harden away from the rim and the line for the most part, but they're also giving up a lot of open looks).

Parsons, Patterson, and Morris really have played a lot better over the last couple weeks.

[Krodis]

Weird substitution patterns in this game. I think they thought they could leave the starters in to start the 4th and put the game out of reach, but the game never really got out of reach and as a consequence the starters essentially played the entire 2nd half. On the first game of a back to back.

[CKRT]

Weird substitution patterns in this game. I think they thought they could leave the starters in to start the 4th and put the game out of reach, but the game never really got out of reach and as a consequence the starters essentially played the entire 2nd half. On the first game of a back to back.

This is especially weird considering they play a strong title contender tomorrow..which im hyped for.

[tsherkin]

It is amazing that Harden is getting roughly 10 FTA already as the man. Not many stars in history have even gotten that and he certainly doesn't drive as much as many other legends all time.

Excuse you? He does nothing BUT drive and take 3s... We just finished having this discussion a while ago, he's top 8 in the league at generating shots for himself by the rim. He attacks wicked-often with isos and PnRs.

Weird substitution patterns in this game. I think they thought they could leave the starters in to start the 4th and put the game out of reach, but the game never really got out of reach and as a consequence the starters essentially played the entire 2nd half. On the first game of a back to back.

Uh? The Rockets were up by 27 at one point, the game was definitely out of reach. We put on a furious "rally" of course, but the lead was never really threatened.

[Krodis]

It had been "cut" to 21 by the start of the 4th and only shrunk from there for the most part. Not that that isn't a safe lead, just apparently not safe enough for the Rockets' coaching staff.

[Krodis]

Double Post

[AussieBuck]

Heh, Harden starts every possession attempting to drive the ball.

[rrravenred]

He's like Prime Michael Redd except his head stays up rather than down.

[thizznation]

He is playing his heart out. I always believed he had a high ceiling with excellent shooting, good handles, good body but I never imagined this level of play so soon. It's pretty unbelievable in my opinion.

[AussieBuck]

He's like Prime Michael Redd except his head stays up rather than down.

That and he can jump and pass.

[rrravenred]

... and he doesn't take ill-advised early-shotclock long jumpers, and he doesn't shout "Ohhhhhhh... and one" with every foul shot, and he's vaguely interested in defence, and...

Well yeah, apart from all that, identical!

[tsherkin]

It had been "cut" to 21 by the start of the 4th and only shrunk from there for the most part. Not that that isn't a safe lead, just apparently not safe enough for the Rockets' coaching staff.

Yeah, they definitely overplayed the starters. Asik was just destroying us inside.

[MisterWestside]

Just 15 games in, but '13 OKC without Harden: +7 on offense (compared to league avg., +5 with Harden in '12), 7.49 SRS (6.44 with Harden in '12). Therefore, RealGM says that Harden sucks as a player. Useless.

[fallacy]

Just 15 games in, but '13 OKC without Harden: +7 on offense (compared to league avg., +5 with Harden in '12), 7.49 SRS (6.44 with Harden in '12). Therefore, RealGM says that Harden sucks as a player. Useless.

Just because OKC is a better team so far this year than last year doesn't mean that Harden is a bad player. It's mostly due to Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka's improvement from last year and the fact that Martin fits so well on this team.

The fact that OKC is 2nd in PTS/G, 2nd in FG%, second in 3pt%, and blowing the rest of the NBA away in FT% is pretty terrifying though. The biggest improvement has been passing (never thought i'd say that after harden left). OKC is 7th in assists compared to last year when they were dead last in the NBA.

[tsherkin]

Kevin Martin is presently shooting 94.2% FT on 4.6 FTA/g.

That probably won't last, nor will his 49.3% 3P on 4.9 3PA/g.

Their offensive efficiency is a bit of a mirage. They're really good, for sure, but certainly that +7 is going to fade as some of the more outlandish numbers that they're posting at the moment come down.