The Lebron Thread (Pt. 3)

[therealbig3]

^Dude, just look at how many times MJ is allowed to go 1 on 1 and get into the paint and attack the rim. It's because the Sonics can't just pack the paint and play zone, they have to keep a man on a Bulls player at all times, and when the other Bulls clear out, MJ quickly attacks and ends up at the rim. When a guy does come over to help, Jordan displays less than stellar passing IQ and either forces up a shot or makes a basic pass not to a wide open teammate but to the closest available guy.

LeBron doesn't have that luxury. Defenses are better now, and the shooters on his team help to combat the improved defenses.

Jordan would absolutely adjust, no question, and he would absolutely learn to utilize the shooters on his team. But his mentality is very similar to guys like Melo and Kobe (and the way he battles in the post is like a mirror image of Melo today), and he wouldn't utilize his shooters as well as LeBron does. And he would have to rely way more on contested midrange looks because he wouldn't have the luxury of going 1 on 1 and essentially having a free lane to the basket anymore.

[trainwreckog]

what part of the video does mj get to the hole? maybe once or twice.

he mostly has to settle for mid-range shots because seattle is packing the paint. not sure what video you are watching.

also, keep in mind that every time mj has the ball outside the paint and a seattle player is touching him in any way - that is a foul in today's game.

[trainwreckog]

in this video, at 11:08 exactly (well, the whole vid actually, but for easy reference) - that is a zone by any definition.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adusCcba89o[/youtube]


and all teams did back then was pack the paint. 3-pt shooting was a novelty at that time, as was hugging a shooter.

in this video at the 1:09 mark for example - the knicks are packing the paint, not hugging the shooters.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ[/youtube]

[therealbig3]

1:04
1:19
3:08
4:17
4:37
6:03
7:58
8:05
8:20
9:53
11:10

Plays where he was basically able to take a defender 1 on 1 into a paint that was relatively clear, as a result of really poor double teaming (at least compared to today), or the fact that the Sonics defenders couldn't leave their man. I didn't include the plays where he was able to get into the paint, force the defense to collapse and kick it out to a shooter, a benefit that you said he doesn't enjoy compared to LeBron. I saw Jordan use his shooters quite a bit in those clips, tbh, and they served him pretty well.

also, keep in mind that every time mj has the ball outside the paint and a seattle player is touching him in any way - that is a foul in today's game.

False. That kind of contact goes on all the time in today's game. The no-handchecking rule isn't enforced nearly as much as you think it is.

[Rasho_libre]

If a defense were to guard Lebron like that he would totally abuse that with his passing. Knicks did it, lot of other teams weren't capable of it. In this era many coaches can do this especially if you have a wade on the team who provides no spacing and will and is a liability as a off ball shooter. I don't know what's hard to believe that defensive schems get better overtime. Doesn't mean players are better just the defensive schemes of things we know now are alot better.

[therealbig3]

And as ElGee has broken down, the way teams pack the paint today, specifically the Spurs, is not to do it in a mad rush, everyone block off LeBron frantic sort of collapsing. They use their big man, Duncan, to play goalie, and the guy that is on a player that can't shoot (Wade's guy) comes over to cover Duncan's man. This way, LeBron's driving angle to the hoop is cut off, and he can't utilize his shooters because they're covered. His options are to take an inefficient midrange jumper or to pass to a teammate who can't shoot.

You say that MJ with 4 shooters around him would be unstoppable in today's game...well, LeBron with 4 shooters around him WAS unstoppable. That was the lineup that killed the Spurs. And I've already pointed out that MJ would adjust and be great in today's league. But there's no obvious and clear reason why he would do so much better than LeBron, because LeBron is already about as good as it gets attacking a modern day defense with shooters spacing the floor. Jordan would run into similar troubles as LeBron did if he had to work with lineups that didn't have 4 shooters against a defense as intelligent as the Spurs, who would pack the paint and only leave the non-shooter open while committing towards Jordan.

[Rasho_libre]

Picture if lebrons was allowed to play d like that in that era. They both would be amazing in any era, I don't know why fans of each try to discredit the other by trying to point out this era this that era that. If you can ball you can play.

[Brenice]

Jordan would feel totally confident shooting open jumpers. The mid-range game is given up when you pack the lane and back off. Jordan was a more dominant scorer. They both were all around players but the mid-range game is advantage MJ and the 3 game, advantage LeBron. Would MJ develop his 3, probably, as he was a notorious gym rat. The mental edge is a big-time advantage for Jordan as well.

[TheOUTLAW]

Wade outplayed Lebron in G3 (better defense and more efficient scoring), G4 & G5.
He also had a very good G7.

Guys we just watched the Finals.
You don't remember some of the 1st halves where Lebron couldn't hit a shot to save his life and Wade carried the offense and kept it close?

You are truly the only person who thinks that Wade has any claim to FMVP. I can only guess that you must be Wades mom.

[HilltopperJay]

Anyone care to predict LeBron's box score production for next year? 27/8/7-ish seems like a safe bet, but maybe Spoelstra finally reduces his minutes during the course of the regular season and that drops a bit. Also, hard to imagine he could top his fg% from last year, but who knows. Hopefully he can creep up just over the 80% mark as a free throw shooter, I see him working on that a lot this summer given his comments earlier in the year about seeing himself in the 50/40/90 club as feasible.

[TheOUTLAW]

What about the "illegal defense" rule? Didn't that help Jordan?

No idea why people overlook this except because it doesn't fit their argument about how LeBron benefits. Fact is, spacing was greater then than it is now and not the other way around. Sure theirs more 3 point shooters but that's because teams are packing the paint more not less.

[JulesWinnfield]

If the Heat win the title next year, Lebron just led the best 4-year team stretch in basketball since Bill Russell's Celts. No one else since them has made the finals 4x in a row with at least 3 titles in that span. The Showtime era Lakers made the finals 4 times in a row, but only won 2 titles in that span (same with Birds Celts 84-87). Of course MJ retired both times the Bulls had a chance, and Shaq/Kobe failed to do it

[TheChosen618]

From those Jordan videos, it shows that Jordan was quicker to make his scoring/dribble move but he was much slower to make the pass compared to Lebron. It also shows that Jordan wasn't as willing of a passer and would force up some bad shots. Jordan generally never played all that great on a consistent basis against the Knicks anyways and it's further proof that if a defense keys in on you, you will struggle and not put up the production you are accustomed to seeing.

Lebron just makes the right play. I don't consider him either pass first or score first. He just takes whatever the defense gives him. It is probably why he gets criticized as much as he does because people want him to be this dominant score first player but that's just not in his nature or his mentality.

[GetItDone]

If the Heat win the title next year, Lebron just led the best 4-year team stretch in basketball since Bill Russell's Celts. No one else since them has made the finals 4x in a row with at least 3 titles in that span. The Showtime era Lakers made the finals 4 times in a row, but only won 2 titles in that span (same with Birds Celts 84-87). Of course MJ retired both times the Bulls had a chance, and Shaq/Kobe failed to do it

If Miami wins again next year and he gets FMVP again and MVP, he jumps to #2 all time for me. (have him 7th right now)

[trainwreckog]

And as ElGee has broken down, the way teams pack the paint today, specifically the Spurs, is not to do it in a mad rush, everyone block off LeBron frantic sort of collapsing. They use their big man, Duncan, to play goalie, and the guy that is on a player that can't shoot (Wade's guy) comes over to cover Duncan's man. This way, LeBron's driving angle to the hoop is cut off, and he can't utilize his shooters because they're covered. His options are to take an inefficient midrange jumper or to pass to a teammate who can't shoot.

You say that MJ with 4 shooters around him would be unstoppable in today's game...well, LeBron with 4 shooters around him WAS unstoppable. That was the lineup that killed the Spurs. And I've already pointed out that MJ would adjust and be great in today's league. But there's no obvious and clear reason why he would do so much better than LeBron, because LeBron is already about as good as it gets attacking a modern day defense with shooters spacing the floor. Jordan would run into similar troubles as LeBron did if he had to work with lineups that didn't have 4 shooters against a defense as intelligent as the Spurs, who would pack the paint and only leave the non-shooter open while committing towards Jordan.

some stats and facts regarding 3-pt shooting..

in 1991, the bulls made 2.3 threes per game on 7.6 attempts (in 1998, bulls made 4.0 on 12.5 attempts). this year, the heat made 7.6 per game on 21.7 attempts. also, the heat had 31 games in regular season where they made 10 or more threes. in 1998, the bulls had 1.

having such vastly superior 3-pt shooting has an effect on the defense that can be played - no one was worried about 3-pt shooting in the 90's, so packing the paint and horrible spacing was standard.

this can easily be seen just by taking a cursory glance at footage to compare the defense played in this year's Finals to the 1996 Finals (mj's worst), or comparing it to other series mj had vs the knicks, pistons or jazz - the difference in physical play and floor spacing is not just remarkable, it is astonishing.

lebron got to take a very large number of wide open, uncontested shots and got to have the ball on the perimeter unbothered/untouched (due to no-hand-checking, any contact with a player outside the paint is a foul)... and both teams had phenomenal spacing due to the aforementioned 3-pt shooting.

otoh, in 1996 Finals, mj was roughed up everywhere on the floor, spacing was horrible, and guys were scratching and clawing for everything they got. footage of mj versus the knicks, pistons, and jazz shows this as well.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw[/youtube]


here vs the knicks, from the very first play at the 0:41 mark, the knicks triple him off the catch and pack the paint severely. pretty astonishing to watch and compare.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ[/youtube]


mj vs. the pistons. at the 1:00 mark, rodman tries to physically injure mj.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE[/youtube]

[ardee]

Anyone care to predict LeBron's box score production for next year? 27/8/7-ish seems like a safe bet, but maybe Spoelstra finally reduces his minutes during the course of the regular season and that drops a bit. Also, hard to imagine he could top his fg% from last year, but who knows. Hopefully he can creep up just over the 80% mark as a free throw shooter, I see him working on that a lot this summer given his comments earlier in the year about seeing himself in the 50/40/90 club as feasible.

I love these types of exercises but it's hopeless to try unless we know whether he's going to be more of a big next year, or if Wade will continue to drop off and LeBron will have more ball-handling duties...

I expect to see a rise in scoring at the very least. 28.5-29 ppg is something I'd put money on. His rebounds will go up as well I think, maybe 8.5-9 as the front-line continues to get older (Andersen and Battier are both 35+) and he spends more time at the 4. Assists are all dependent on Wade. I could see anything from 6.5 to 8.

28.5/8.5/7 is my bet, maybe something like 63-65% TS, 32-33 PER.

[Mohanad]

Your 2012 finals numbers aren't accurate. And the 2011 finals where we all kill Lebron for was comparable and possibly better in defeat than Wade's 2013 in victory

And you're 2 for 3 on your last comment. He is a hall of famer, his rings aren't tainted (don't know who said that), but he damn well certainly is a sidekick on this team, and in reality not a particularly strong one when judged against other repeat/threepeat title teams since at least the first bulls threepeat. Give me 91-93 Pippen, 00-02 Kobe, hell even 09/10 Pau over 12/13 Wade anyday. And from a fit standpoint all those guys fit better next to their alpha as well. 96-98 Pippen vs 12/13 Wade would be at least somewhat closer given how banged up Pip was in those postseason runs at times, but I'd still go edge Pippen. I'll leave 94/95 Rockets out of it since both casts were different

There are still vast stretches where the Heat play better with Wade not even in the picture and the floor spaced better. They are great with him at peak efficacy, but that doesn't happen often anymore

You're assessment on Wade is as horrid as it could be. Lebron doing more for Wade's legacy, calling him a sidekick, Miami is more effective without him..

Heat space better and there are vast stretches where the Heat are better when doesn't touch the court...

What did Wade get out of his 30.8 per minutes per outing, the fewest of that 2013 season?

Plenty.

He averaged 24.5 points on 55.7 percent shooting in those 13 games.

He even shot 84.7 percent from the line, well above his career norm.

He showed that, even with LeBron James taking a step forward in the offense, he could still find his spots, and his shots.

Miami's record?

That was 11-2.

Everyone overlooks his defense and his momentum changing plays.

When the Heat had not only fallen to 9-8, but was cracking under the weight of the scrutiny in their first season, who showed up when it mattered?

That's when Dwyane Wade, the helped hold it all together.

He averaged 27.9 points, 6.9 rebounds and 4.1 assists—with 54.3 percent shooting from the field—in 15 games. The big 3 was born..

LeBron James wasn't bad either—averaging 25.2 points on 51.1 percent—as Miami went 15-1 for the month.

In the big 3 era, who was the best player on the floor in the 2011 finals? Not to mention he gave them all star numbers in the 2012 & 13 finals.

Lebron does more for Wade's legacy? Let's see what good ole' Dwyane was up to before Lebron came to town

NBA champion
Finals MVP
Scoring title
5x all NBA teams
3x all defensive teams
6 all star seasons (in 7 seasons)

Digging deep to undermine his career and writing him off as sidekick and at times a liability for Miami is rich.

[therealbig3]

^Don't know why it's so hard for you to grasp the concept that 2013 Wade is a lot worse than 2011 Wade, and that Wade's career up until this point tell us nothing about the player that Wade is right now.

He sucked in the playoffs this year, and got carried by LeBron. He most definitely was a liability for large stretches throughout the playoff run.

Without LeBron, Wade can kiss the last 2 titles and 3 Finals appearances goodbye, and his decline would be a much bigger story around the league. Without Wade, LeBron would have led some other team to the title. Wade has definitely benefitted WAY more from LeBron than LeBron from Wade.

[JulesWinnfield]

Again, join the rest of us in 2013. Hyping up a 2011 season where Miami didn't win it all and talking about prior accomplishments has no bearing on this discussion. And while Lebron did struggle in those finals against Dallas, he carried them there by clearly outperforming Wade in that ECF against the Bulls.

I'm also not even sure what sample or stretch you are referring to when you site those random statistics about 13 games, you don't specify. And are we really about to go there with regards to who is showing up bigger when the Heat have their back against the wall? No one has ever had a 2 year stretch of elimination games like Lebron just had

D-Wade is a clear and apparent sidekick on the two time repeat champ Heat to anyone paying attention, I can't believe we are debating this. In fact for major portions of this postseason he wasn't even consistently their 2nd most impactful player, so calling him a sidekick in some respects is generous (prior to the finals). The guy went large stretches in this postseason where he was useless.

Miami was chronologically closer to a 15 win season than their 2006 title when Lebron arrived, they had gone 4 years in a row without getting out of round 1 until Lebron came to town. People act like Lebron joined a dynasty in progress, the Heat were barely relevant in the NBA landscape for 4 years prior despite Wade still possessing prime powers. Hell yes Lebron has done more for Wade's legacy than vice versa. Quote Wade's career accomplishments all you want, join us in the present.

Lebron didn't join Wade's team. He took Wade's team

[Rerisen]

Wade is the sidekick now but still a more savvy scorer than LeBron in the halfcourt imo. Not a better scorer, but less prone to being sort of stymied for long spells by a packed paint and then just disengaging into super pass mode. Wade has dozens of moves between mid-range to the basket. Lot's of stop and go, side to side, jukes, ball fakes, etc, whereas James is more A to B line right at the rim from the perimeter.

LeBron thinks too much at times, and Wade just attacks when he gets his chances with the ball. That aspect is absolutely vital for Miami. And you saw it a few times in this series, where those gears were grinding in James's head and Wade sort of took the reins and made things happen to fill in the gaps.

If there ever comes a point where Wade cannot perform that sort of 'on demand' scorer role, and we saw it at times through these playoffs due to his injury, Miami is in big trouble, and the Miami Cavs jokes start looking to have substance. Bosh... he's just not a dependable answer of any sort.

LeBron + shooters might be ideal for James, and for emergency situations to 'clean up' the Heat offense which bogs down with both of them at times, but there comes a point where you need that secondary shot creator before getting through all the best opposition.