2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[itsxtray]

The peds discussion is dumb. Until someone proves something it's meaningless.

[capfan33]

NBA players with multi-million dollar salaries aren’t using the stuff that your regular gym bro is. Guys like LeBron with hundred-million dollar incomes have yet another level of access.

I’m by no means an expert but this is factually incorrect lol. Steroids are ubiquitous now (to the point where there’s an epidemic among younger people taking them) and a high quality cycle will only set you back maybe 3k a month tops, well within range for basically anyone in the NBA/NFL. Most bodybuilders are normal people and aren’t wealthy, and they can readily afford what’s necessary to compete with anyone else. Lebron does not have special access to some 100k wonder drug lol.

The bigger issue with steroids is how well someone responds to them genetically, as there can be quite a bit of variation in efficacy depending on your genes. And I would guess like most things athletically LeBron probably responds to them better than most, but that’s just another part of him being an athletic outlier.

I’m not an expert either but am not sure your first paragraph is really right. I recall reading a while back about Lance Armstrong and trying to figure out why we should care that he doped when we know that like every single cyclist in his era doped too. I figured it was basically all a level playing field if everyone was doping, and therefore we could still safely assume he was the best of his era. And the answer I saw about this when I went down that rabbit hole was basically that his team had more money and therefore was able to have a much more sophisticated (and therefore very likely more effective) doping operation. As I said, I’m no expert on this topic, but I imagine the same is probably true in other sports. That could manifest itself in (1) using more types of PEDs, (2) getting your hands on rare/cutting-edge drugs, (3) hiring people to optimize how they’re all used, including how the various PEDs are best used in concert with each other, how to optimize their use for the particular player’s body, and the exact timing of when they’re used for optimal effect, (4) hiring people to figure out how to ensure no positive tests while pushing the envelope as much as possible, etc. I imagine this sort of thing can cost a lot of money and would yield superior results to the type of 3k-a-month costs you’re referring to.

Not to get too into the weeds on this and I don't expect you to read it all, just want to explain for posterities sake. If you want the long and short of it, go to the bolded on the bottom. Points one and two I already addressed; steroids aren't expensive or difficult to get, and on an NBA/NFL salary you could easily afford anything in any combo you could possibly want. Straight up, you can get a month's worth of TRT for like $200 lol. You could go to your local LA Fitness with some cash and probably walk out with a few vials lmao.

Moreover, it seems you have this idea that there's some special Captain America serum-type PED available only available for absurd amounts of money, but the steroids that you commonly see (or saw) baseball, football and basketball players take have been around for decades such as testosterone or HGH, and are available to anyone. It's been speculated that what Lebron took in that offseason before Miami where he infamously got huge was in fact, HGH, which even you've probably heard of. There are more expensive designer variants of such PED's which are often harder to detect, but they don't usually offer a meaningful performance advantage over the normal variants, and once again, still aren't a major expense for a professional athlete.

And moreover, probably the single biggest factor in all of this is how you respond to the drugs themselves, as response can vary wildly from person to person, and we have no way of knowing how well a given player responds to these substances.

The biggest difference in steroids now compared to the past isn't the steroids themselves, but knowledge around how to use them, which is readily available to everyone. Most of the steroids that exist now existed in the 80s; the government heavily restricts and regulates research on anabolic compounds, so there hasn't been some quantum leap in terms of what's available, mostly just more understanding around usage.

Point number three is reasonable, I think the benefit is probably pretty marginal in the grand scheme of things but yea, in concert with Lebron's general dedication to his body and I'm sure the absurd amount of resources he has around him to perform at the highest level, he might have a leg up on the average player in how to optimally integrate gear into his regimen, but once again, not particularly notable.

And for the final point, the NBA testing policy is a complete joke, in fact, it may be the most lax of any major sport. Basically, you'd have to be a complete idiot to get caught (and it's probably purposely designed that way if we're being conspiratorial). It's significantly more lax than cycling, and as such you don't need some genius behind the scenes perfectly orchestrating everything in order to not to get caught. Straight up, the player themselves could probably do a 5 minute Google search on how to flush steroids out of their system and be good to go lol. Hell, some PEDs aren't even tested for and are legal within the current rules.

Final point, More Plates More Dates is probably the most well-known resource on steroids on Youtube, and he actually has a video on Lebron and what he thinks Lebron's on. He verbatim states: “Are we implying that he’s the only guy that has some kind of specialty drug center that only lebron has access of”, implying that Lebron having some special access to PED's compared to others is nonsense; because he knows, as basically anyone who's delved into this to any degree does, that Joe-schmo on a middle-class salary with enough motivation and Google can more or less create an optimal cycle for themselves (and many have using his channel). It's not nearly as exclusive as I believe you're implying, if local bodybuilders that I know can do it, I'm sure professional athletes can as well.

Around 15:40, he basically states that tons of players are using the same stuff, and Lebron recovering faster is a testament to his genetics, his ability to respond to the drugs, and his dedication to his training regiment. Not because he's accessing some top-secret exclusive miracle compound. So, yea, this is a non-issue IMO.

Here's the link

Watch on YouTube

[tsherkin]

I think people whining about steroids are missing the point anyway. You still have to put in the work. And it's accessible to everyone in the sport if they want it. And if what it's doing is creating longevity more than anything, then that is a positive. Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing. I didn't care in the MLB, though at least there it had a meaningful direct impact on the chance someone could smack a dinger.

I just don't understand why people care so much about this and why the league has to make a big fuss over it. Let 'em do it. No one cares. They're titanic athletic freaks to begin with; it's not like we're deluding ourselves into believing that some normal dude could compete in the league anyway.

[OhayoKD]

No, forget I said anything. This is a bizarrely defensive and anti-discussion reaction.

Just ignore them and do your thing. People who don't want to talk ball shouldn't be gatekeeping those who do.

I honestly think discussion is stifled by users such as yourself who I know are knowledgeable and can contribute a lot but tend to not always use that to foster a constructive discussion but instead choose to be dismissive.

Says the party stifling discussion.

Even here, you defend the post I reacted to solely because it shared your skepticism of Jokic and not because of it was well-argued or informative.

Fascinating, I was unaware the standard to gatekeep/be dismissive was "not well argued or informative". I'll keep that in mind the next time you use the terms floor or ceiling raising again. Interestingly, this "bias, plan and simple" didn't lead to empirefalls when their posts were "not well argued or informative" here:
[url]https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2360464
[/url]

On that note, I don't recall anyone being called a troll for saying Jokic was the MVP or that Jokic was better than Shai...oh right, that was the Jokic guys who just so happen to be the ones trying to discourage empirefalls from being mean to Jokic again.

Funny how that works.

Personally, I don't think my comment was in any way defensive or anti-discussion (to be quite frank, the initial post did not invite for any discussion at all).

Sure it was. If you feel Jokic's rim-protection does not bar Jokic from goat peak talks, then you can discuss why. If claiming he is the mvp, best player or goat-peak following a game is legitimate discussion, then so is claiming he can't be the goat of one. You are trying to enforce double-standards. And you will be called out for it.

The initial comments essentially says: ‘See this one game in the middle of December? Perhaps this multi-time MVP who has played almost 800 games by now is not what y'all thought he was’.

And this is not a point that can be discussed?

I think it's fair to question the point of the comment, and to push back against what it implies

You can push back against what it implies. But instead you're trying to discourage comments like that being made in the first place. Appealing to the popularity of what is being pushed back doesn't mean anything to me.

namely that the people who see Jokic as a GOAT-level player are somehow oblivious to the obvious

I mean they are. Kudos to empirefalls for not saying the quiet part out loud, but I will.

[frica]

I’m by no means an expert but this is factually incorrect lol. Steroids are ubiquitous now (to the point where there’s an epidemic among younger people taking them) and a high quality cycle will only set you back maybe 3k a month tops, well within range for basically anyone in the NBA/NFL. Most bodybuilders are normal people and aren’t wealthy, and they can readily afford what’s necessary to compete with anyone else. Lebron does not have special access to some 100k wonder drug lol.

The bigger issue with steroids is how well someone responds to them genetically, as there can be quite a bit of variation in efficacy depending on your genes. And I would guess like most things athletically LeBron probably responds to them better than most, but that’s just another part of him being an athletic outlier.

I’m not an expert either but am not sure your first paragraph is really right. I recall reading a while back about Lance Armstrong and trying to figure out why we should care that he doped when we know that like every single cyclist in his era doped too. I figured it was basically all a level playing field if everyone was doping, and therefore we could still safely assume he was the best of his era. And the answer I saw about this when I went down that rabbit hole was basically that his team had more money and therefore was able to have a much more sophisticated (and therefore very likely more effective) doping operation. As I said, I’m no expert on this topic, but I imagine the same is probably true in other sports. That could manifest itself in (1) using more types of PEDs, (2) getting your hands on rare/cutting-edge drugs, (3) hiring people to optimize how they’re all used, including how the various PEDs are best used in concert with each other, how to optimize their use for the particular player’s body, and the exact timing of when they’re used for optimal effect, (4) hiring people to figure out how to ensure no positive tests while pushing the envelope as much as possible, etc. I imagine this sort of thing can cost a lot of money and would yield superior results to the type of 3k-a-month costs you’re referring to.

Not to get too into the weeds on this and I don't expect you to read it all, just want to explain for posterities sake. If you want the long and short of it, go to the bolded on the bottom. Points one and two I already addressed; steroids aren't expensive or difficult to get, and on an NBA/NFL salary you could easily afford anything in any combo you could possibly want. Straight up, you can get a month's worth of TRT for like $200 lol. You could go to your local LA Fitness with some cash and probably walk out with a few vials lmao.

Moreover, it seems you have this idea that there's some special Captain America serum-type PED available only available for absurd amounts of money, but the steroids that you commonly see (or saw) baseball, football and basketball players take have been around for decades such as testosterone or HGH, and are available to anyone. It's been speculated that what Lebron took in that offseason before Miami where he infamously got huge was in fact, HGH, which even you've probably heard of. There are more expensive designer variants of such PED's which are often harder to detect, but they don't usually offer a meaningful performance advantage over the normal variants, and once again, still aren't a major expense for a professional athlete.

And moreover, probably the single biggest factor in all of this is how you respond to the drugs themselves, as response can vary wildly from person to person, and we have no way of knowing how well a given player responds to these substances.

The biggest difference in steroids now compared to the past isn't the steroids themselves, but knowledge around how to use them, which is readily available to everyone. Most of the steroids that exist now existed in the 80s; the government heavily restricts and regulates research on anabolic compounds, so there hasn't been some quantum leap in terms of what's available, mostly just more understanding around usage.

Point number three is reasonable, I think the benefit is probably pretty marginal in the grand scheme of things but yea, in concert with Lebron's general dedication to his body and I'm sure the absurd amount of resources he has around him to perform at the highest level, he might have a leg up on the average player in how to optimally integrate gear into his regimen, but once again, not particularly notable.

And for the final point, the NBA testing policy is a complete joke, in fact, it may be the most lax of any major sport. Basically, you'd have to be a complete idiot to get caught (and it's probably purposely designed that way if we're being conspiratorial). It's significantly more lax than cycling, and as such you don't need some genius behind the scenes perfectly orchestrating everything in order to not to get caught. Straight up, the player themselves could probably do a 5 minute Google search on how to flush steroids out of their system and be good to go lol. Hell, some PEDs aren't even tested for and are legal within the current rules.

Final point, More Plates More Dates is probably the most well-known resource on steroids on Youtube, and he actually has a video on Lebron and what he thinks Lebron's on. He verbatim states: “Are we implying that he’s the only guy that has some kind of specialty drug center that only lebron has access of”, implying that Lebron having some special access to PED's compared to others is nonsense; because he knows, as basically anyone who's delved into this to any degree does, that Joe-schmo on a middle-class salary with enough motivation and Google can more or less create an optimal cycle for themselves (and many have using his channel). It's not nearly as exclusive as I believe you're implying, if local bodybuilders that I know can do it, I'm sure professional athletes can as well.

Around 15:40, he basically states that tons of players are using the same stuff, and Lebron recovering faster is a testament to his genetics, his ability to respond to the drugs, and his dedication to his training regiment. Not because he's accessing some top-secret exclusive miracle compound. So, yea, this is a non-issue IMO.

Here's the link

Watch on YouTube

I don't have much to say except the prices you were talking about.
200 bucks for T is means someone is getting fleeced.

If you buy T raws on Alibaba (or wherever) a few hundred bucks is enough to blast for multiple decades.
Test is extremely cheap.

On a tangent.
Drug testing mostly works, as it forces either shorter cycles or harder to detect (but less effective) compounds. Why (for example) the Russians went to great lengths to fake pee and blood tests. (Or avoid them altogether)

[MartinToVaught]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

[tsherkin]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

You could say that about many things about the sport, though. They already explicitly do aggressive amounts of soft tissue damage to themselves, and then the way they eat to be in this sort of shape for that long, you see what happens to them after.

[OhayoKD]

Some al hoford level offense from Wemby here

[tsherkin]

Some al hoford level offense from Wemby here

10/15 inside the arc. 4 FTAs. Opened up 1/5 from 3 with a bunch of stupid attempts, then settled into 5/11 thereafter. Still had some great moves inside the arc and a big performance overall. Smashed the boards, passed well, madness on defense.

But yeah. SOOOOO many 3s. And so many of them, I just wanted to scream at him "WTF WAS THAT? THERE WAS SO MUCH CLOCK LEFT!"

[Peregrine01]

Murray is such a low motor player. Crazy how much more impactful Westbrook is just off his energy alone.

[penbeast0]

I think people whining about steroids are missing the point anyway. You still have to put in the work. And it's accessible to everyone in the sport if they want it. And if what it's doing is creating longevity more than anything, then that is a positive. Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing. I didn't care in the MLB, though at least there it had a meaningful direct impact on the chance someone could smack a dinger.

I just don't understand why people care so much about this and why the league has to make a big fuss over it. Let 'em do it. No one cares. They're titanic athletic freaks to begin with; it's not like we're deluding ourselves into believing that some normal dude could compete in the league anyway.

And 10,000 young kids who want to be like Mike are juicing starting as early as middle school. But steroids aren't risk free, there are high risks of health issues. My cousin was a power lifter and has been on kidney dialysis since he was in his late 20s. The reason to have effective testing and ban them is the health risk, partially for the athletes themselves though as you say, it's worth even a small upgrade at that level in terms of trading off long term risk for short term gain. But it's probably not worth it for the young kids, with probably more kids ending up with health issues that ending up with division 1 scholarships.

[itsxtray]

I think people whining about steroids are missing the point anyway. You still have to put in the work. And it's accessible to everyone in the sport if they want it. And if what it's doing is creating longevity more than anything, then that is a positive. Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing. I didn't care in the MLB, though at least there it had a meaningful direct impact on the chance someone could smack a dinger.

I just don't understand why people care so much about this and why the league has to make a big fuss over it. Let 'em do it. No one cares. They're titanic athletic freaks to begin with; it's not like we're deluding ourselves into believing that some normal dude could compete in the league anyway.

And 10,000 young kids who want to be like Mike are juicing starting as early as middle school. But steroids aren't risk free, there are high risks of health issues. My cousin was a power lifter and has been on kidney dialysis since he was in his late 20s. The reason to have effective testing and ban them is the health risk, partially for the athletes themselves though as you say, it's worth even a small upgrade at that level in terms of trading off long term risk for short term gain. But it's probably not worth it for the young kids, with probably more kids ending up with health issues that ending up with division 1 scholarships.

You're definitely barking up the wrong tree. The kids who hop on roids aren't doing it because they wanna be like Mike or because they see LeBron--dudes who don't even look like they're on roids. They're doing it because of the fitness influencers and bodybuilders on their feed—the Sam Suleks, etc.

[ronnymac2]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

The sports leagues don't ban PEDs for player health; they ban PEDs for the optics of legitimacy. No sports league wants to be scrutinized like MLB was post-Bonds.

[tsherkin]

And 10,000 young kids who want to be like Mike are juicing starting as early as middle school. But steroids aren't risk free, there are high risks of health issues. My cousin was a power lifter and has been on kidney dialysis since he was in his late 20s. The reason to have effective testing and ban them is the health risk, partially for the athletes themselves though as you say, it's worth even a small upgrade at that level in terms of trading off long term risk for short term gain. But it's probably not worth it for the young kids, with probably more kids ending up with health issues that ending up with division 1 scholarships.

I hear you. But everything has risks. And some things can be done safely if done correctly. And what kids do and what adults do can't always be connected in the sense of kids will always do dumb crap based on their inappropriate heroes and other poor decision-making. That said, banning steroids in HS and college to try and make that a conscious adult decision and not potentially harmful to youth, that's a different situation. I'm all in for that. But in a professional sport league, I'm not for the ban.

[MartinToVaught]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

The sports leagues don't ban PEDs for player health; they ban PEDs for the optics of legitimacy. No sports league wants to be scrutinized like MLB was post-Bonds.

If sports leagues gave a crap about the optics of legitimacy, they would have never started shilling for FanDuel and DraftKings. Cheaters like the Astros, Patriots, Michigan, etc. would have been punished way more harshly than they were. And the Donaghy scandal would have prompted a wave of scrutiny towards the officiating in all sports instead of being written off as one rogue referee.

What they really care about is covering their asses so they can't be blamed if a player goes hog-wild with steroids and is stuck with a lifetime of heart problems.

[ShaqAttac]

Is there really any doubt what he was doing during that week when he just disappeared?

Don't be shy buddy, you can say it out loud

Look, I'm not against it at all. I just don't think we need to be all shocked. It's also kinda laughable how the league tries to pretend like they care. I don't begrudge a 40 year-old professional athlete trying to get some help against guys way younger than him at all.

u got proof?

[Cavsfansince84]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

While I get your point I think that's more applicable to sports such as strongman, bodybulding or football. I think in sports such as the nba, track or cycling guys are less likely to overdo pure muscle building peds in favor more of ones like epo(even in mma epo is said to be way more rampant than steroids), probably supplemented with hgh and trt. Pure muscle is not what most nba players are after since it also means you run out of gas easier. A pro bodybuilder for instance is going to have very little in the way of functional athleticism.

[falcolombardi]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

While I get your point I think that's more applicable to sports such as strongman, bodybulding or football. I think in sports such as the nba, track or cycling guys are less likely to overdo pure muscle building peds in favor more of ones like epo(even in mma epo is said to be way more rampant than steroids), probably supplemented with hgh and trt. Pure muscle is not what most nba players are after since it also means you run out of gas easier. A pro bodybuilder for instance is going to have very little in the way of functional athleticism.

EPO is unironically very dangerous actually lol

In medicine you only use it for people with severe anemia and aim to take them to a slight anemia instead (mostly kidney disease patients) because aiming to get them to normal blood levels is more dangerous than benefitial due to the effects of EPO (serious cardiac and blood cloth risk among other stuff)

[Cavsfansince84]

The sports leagues don't ban PEDs for player health; they ban PEDs for the optics of legitimacy. No sports league wants to be scrutinized like MLB was post-Bonds.

Honestly I think we're at a point as a society where peds aren't nearly as taboo as they were when mlb got outed/shamed and had to deal with congressional hearings and stuff like that. I agree that for the most part pro leagues don't mind ped use because it makes their product better and just want their guys to not overdo it which is why I think we almost never hear about anyone failing an nba drug test. Their testing is a joke. Even in the nfl its rare to hear about a failed test. They just want guys to stay within certain parameters and be somewhat safe with it.

[frica]

Like, what's the downside of steroids in the NBA? Nothing.

The downside would be players overdoing it and getting serious health issues or even dying from it. Heart problems, liver cancer, etc. I assume the main reason why sports leagues ban these drugs are to save the players from themselves.

The sports leagues don't ban PEDs for player health; they ban PEDs for the optics of legitimacy. No sports league wants to be scrutinized like MLB was post-Bonds.

In powerlifting the untested competitions are bigger than the tested ones, and a lot of the competitors are clean about their use.
Same in bodybuilding.

Strongman is explicitly untested but they're more silent about it.