Retro POY '05-06 (Voting Complete)

[ElGee]

Game 5 went into OT and Nowitzki hit the potential gamewinner at the end of the OT. After that Wade was allowed to make an offensive foul and a palming violation just to call a touch foul on Nowitzki by the referee who was standing at midcourt, while BOTH other referees decided non-call.

I figured this would be the play you were talking about when you linked the video. There is a still photo (can anyone find it? The site I found it on pulled it down...) of that play and Wade is pushed in the back AND hit on the arm. It's *clearly* a foul.

I don't want to quibble about officiating, because Wade did get a few calls. But to me it completely undermined an epic performance that didn't just come out of nowhere in the FInals. You can read 82games officiating review. I did a column at the time on that game and there are few calls earlier in the game for Wade. This was the game Howard called timeout when Avery didn't want him to if I recall. I blame Mark Cuban -- I think with his passion and large role in the spotlight, it didn't matter who they played in the FInals, Cuban was going to make a stink about officiating.

[Baller 24]

When did Wade get anything done remotely close to what he did one year with Shaq playing (by your standards) at an MVP level) ?

He was third in MVP voting last season, and probably in the top 5 this season. Don't know exactly what you're point is, Kobe did this same thing in '06 and '07, high MVP results, bad cast, resulting to no team success.

[mysticbb]

Hmm. I believe you said something like "How can you win when the other team takes so many more free throws?", so a response of "Well they made about the same number of free throws" is relevant because it says Miami won by outscoring the Mavs with field goals. It's not disputing Dallas' right to complain about the refs, but it is disputing Dallas' right to complain that the series was made impossible to win because of free throws.

You missed not only one point here. The Heat got more opportunities to score on a higher efficiency by going to the line. If they would have went less to the line, their overall offensive efficiency would have dropped.

Let me show you that: The Heat score 0.99 points per scoring opportunity from the field, but they scored 125 from the free throw line in 91 scoring possessions. That makes 1.37 points per scoring possessions. As you can see the difference is 0.38 points per scoring opportunity. Now we reduce the amount of possession from the line to the amount of possessions the Mavericks had (68). That makes 23 possessions in which the Heat scored 0.38 more points than they would have scored without that FTA advantage. That makes around 9 points. That doesn't sound much in the first place, but the Heat won 3 of their 4 wins by 3 points or less.
Additional to the points they gained due to that the Mavericks players were also in foul trouble, which results in a different style of defense, less physical, avoiding fouls, etc., which helped the Heat on offense.

From the opposite standpoint: Give the Mavericks those 23 possessions from the free throw line more, they score 20 points more over the course of the series. That would also mean more foul trouble for the Heat players, which would normally result into a less aggressive defense, especially Haslem and Posey would have had likely foul trouble against Nowitzki, if the referees would have called the ticky-tack fouls which they called for Wade also for Nowitzki.

That changes the whole dynamic of the series. And the Heat clearly got more foul calls in their favour than usual, while Mavericks got less than usual.

[mopper8]

It wasn't smaller than Gasol's role on the 09 Laker team.

He averaged 19 and 10 in the playoffs, to put that in perspective

Yes, let's put that in perspective

Shaq 05-06 playoffs: 18.4 ppg, 9.8 rpb, 33mpg, PER of 19.9
Gasol 08-09 playoffs: 18.3 ppg, 10.8 rpb, 40.5 mpg, PER of 21.9

Not sure how that works for your argument that Shaq played a bigger role than Gasol...?

His regular season numbers were 20 and 9 on 60% shooting. His PER was 24.4, exactly the same as Duncan in 07-08 and nearly everybody voted for him, and a touch behind KG - and he was the MVP.

Gasol's PER in 08-09 was 22.2, lower than Shaq's, but certainly not a huge difference. Especially considering Gasol played in 81 RS games while Shaq only played in 59.

Also, you're touting Shaq's PER next to Duncan and KG, but neither of those guys played with someone else with a higher PER...Wade's PER that year is 27.6. If you're really going to pimp that stat hard like you are now, how can you not acknowledge that Shaq didn't even have the highest PER on his team? Neither RS nor Playoffs? That's totally dishonest. Manu Ginobili had a PER of 24.3, slightly lower than Duncan's, and Parker was at 20.0, and that's certainly nice help...but that's far from being far-and-away the #2 player on your team in PER, to a guy who:

Played more games (75-59)
Played more MPG (38.6-30.6)
Took more FGA/game (18.8 to 13.6)
Had a higher USG% (32.5 to 30.0)

By comparison, Duncan played more games (and certainly started more games) than Ginobili, played more mpg, took more fga/game, and had a higher PER (in the interest of full disclosure, Gino did have a slightly higher USG%, 28.7-28,2). Shaq's place on his team was nothing at all like Duncan's. I mean, it's not even close.

Further, and I think this is important: you brought up PER and the comparison between Shaq and Gasol, well: The difference between Wade's PER in 05-06 and Shaq's PER that same year is +3.2 in favor Wade, a bigger margin of difference than that between Shaq 05-06 and Gasol 08-09 (+2.2 in favor of Shaq)

You're using that to demonstrate that Shaq was superior to Gasol, and yet...the very same metric says Wade was superior to Shaq by an even bigger margin.

What's more, the difference between Gasol's and Kobe's PER (24.4 for Kobe, 22.2 for Gasol) was smaller in favor of Kobe than it was in favor of Wade. That is to say, according to PER (which, again, YOU brought up, not I), Gasol was closer to Kobe in production in 08-09 than Shaq was to Wade in 05-06. Not really debatable when looking at that metric.

On top of that, unlike Shaq vis-a-vis Wade, Gasol actually played more mpg than Kobe (37.0-36.1).

So no, Shaq wasn't playing Gasol's role on the Lakers, he was playing Duncan's role on the 07-08 Spurs - that is MVP level production.

As I demonstrated above, Shaq's place on the Heat in no way resembled Duncan's role on the 07-08 Spurs, and its not really debatable. Duncan had a "1st-among-equals" place on offense with Gino and Parker--they're USG% was all within .5 points of one another, and their FGA/game were all within .8 of one another, and Duncan had the best PER on that team by a slight margin, and Duncan lead them in MPG. All while easily being the team's most important defensive player.

Shaq, conversely, was clearly the 2nd option and 2nd in production in any metric you'd like to choose: MPG, USG%, FGA, PER, raw stats, etc etc. And its not even obvious that he was the best defensive player; Alonzo Mourning had a huge impact on Miami's defense. Per 82 games:

Mourning On/Off opponent Pper100: 101.2 on/107.9 off
O'Neal On/Off opponent Pper100: 107.2 on/104.4 off

I mean, you're really just wrong here.

[Dr Positivity]

I like Wade 1st here. His regular season production was excellent in itself, but his playoffs is what really gets the vote. He accomplished one of the rare feats by beating two superior teams simply by elevating his game in the playoffs to a Jordan like level. The Heat don't have a chance against those Pistons and Mavs teams if Wade isn't unreal those last 2 rounds

After that comes down to Dirk, Nash, Lebron, and Duncan. I still think Duncan and Lebron were the best players and easiest to build winners around. (in Lebron's case the Cavs weren't as good, but he didn't have the shooters he needed... not his fault). But I'm going to take Dirk 2nd here because of his epic run to the finals, even if he melted down there. He had less talent supporting him and a worse regular season team but managed to beat the Spurs in the 2nd round all the same, thanks to an epic 37/15 game in the Game 7 in San Antonio.

I'm going with Duncan 3rd this time over Lebron. Duncan was 29 and a 2 way beast. Great inside out post player, great at setting picks and can spread the floor a bit for shooters, had a calming effect on the team, elite defensive player. 63 wins for the Spurs and a bad Ginobili foul from maybe winning the title.

Lebron 4th. Gets you a high level of inside/outside points providing you give him shooters (which the Cavs didn't)... very easy to build around. Led a weak team to 50 wins and within a game of beating the 64 win Pistons. I don't think he was all THAT much worse impact-wise this year than the last 2 years, it's just when your team has less spacing you're forced to take more inefficient contested 2s, combined with a slightly superior shot that's bumped his efficiency

Nash 5th. MVP, led an Amare less Suns to the WCF. Proved he didn't need Amare to anchor an epic offense and kept that team humming all year. I don't have a problem with this MVP, unlike some people.

Leaving Kobe off is really tough but I can't put him over those 5 guys, 35ppg and all. I still think he was in wolf mode at this point and I wouldn't trust him to be the legit leader of a 55 win+ team like older, more mature Kobe

[mysticbb]

Game 5 went into OT and Nowitzki hit the potential gamewinner at the end of the OT. After that Wade was allowed to make an offensive foul and a palming violation just to call a touch foul on Nowitzki by the referee who was standing at midcourt, while BOTH other referees decided non-call.

I figured this would be the play you were talking about when you linked the video. There is a still photo (can anyone find it? The site I found it on pulled it down...) of that play and Wade is pushed in the back AND hit on the arm. It's *clearly* a foul.

That is not the point here, the point is that the Mavericks defense had no chance to defend Wade, because of the way the referees called that specific play. Look at how Wade is committing an offensive foul on Terry, after that he is on front of Harris and Harris gives him no room to go somewhere, but Wade just carried the ball (that is called palming violation) to make a move to the middle and get the space for the drive to the basket. Two clear violations of the rules, non of that was called. So, explain how they should have avoid that? It was impossible. If "let the players decide the game" applies, neither situation should have been called, if they want to have a game by the rules, call the offensive foul and/or the palming violation. Without those violation Wade would have never been in the position to be fouled underneath the basket, in fact the Mavericks would have got possession with a 1 point lead.

[Dr Positivity]

On the topic of KG, that team sucked because they ranked 28th offensively (10th defensively). Is it partly his fault they weren't better... actually, yes it is. A guy like Lebron is so valuable offensively because he creates points at the rim and from the 3point line the whole game. Garnett doesn't particularly do either. I can't consider a guy who leads his team to 28th offensively to be superior to the Nash, Duncan, Kobe's of that year... no way

[Gongxi]

With KG, I don't think it's a matter of what he didn't do, rather than the fact that there's an excess of qualified candidates.

To me, Wade's the pretty clear pick at one.

After that, you have some order of Nash, Nowitzki and Kobe. And after that, you have some order of LeBron, Duncan and Garnett.

Not a lot of separation in those two groupings, in my opinion.

So you're saying the competition in 07-08 just wasn't as good as 05-06? Because otherwise...

I mean, I after I had already decided what my ranking was going to be for this season, I went back and looked at where I had him in 07-08: 4th that year, 5th this. That seems to make sense to me as he really didn't play much differently. But if you have Garnett 1st or 2nd that year and off your ballot this year...

Are you just saying the bar was higher in 05-06? Unless Garnett played markedly better in 07-08- or unless you're giving him props for having better teammates- you kinda have to go with that, no?

[ElGee]

Game 5 went into OT and Nowitzki hit the potential gamewinner at the end of the OT. After that Wade was allowed to make an offensive foul and a palming violation just to call a touch foul on Nowitzki by the referee who was standing at midcourt, while BOTH other referees decided non-call.

I figured this would be the play you were talking about when you linked the video. There is a still photo (can anyone find it? The site I found it on pulled it down...) of that play and Wade is pushed in the back AND hit on the arm. It's *clearly* a foul.

That is not the point here, the point is that the Mavericks defense had no chance to defend Wade, because of the way the referees called that specific play. Look at how Wade is committing an offensive foul on Terry, after that he is on front of Harris and Harris gives him no room to go somewhere, but Wade just carried the ball (that is called palming violation) to make a move to the middle and get the space for the drive to the basket. Two clear violations of the rules, non of that was called. So, explain how they should have avoid that? It was impossible. If "let the players decide the game" applies, neither situation should have been called, if they want to have a game by the rules, call the offensive foul and/or the palming violation. Without those violation Wade would have never been in the position to be fouled underneath the basket, in fact the Mavericks would have got possession with a 1 point lead.

But I'm not quite following -- are you suggesting that the entire series was somehow tilted to favor Dwyane Wade as an individual?

Isn't it just more likely that Wade -- who possesses arguably the greatest first step in NBA history -- was just too good to be stopped by any of Dallas' perimeter players?

IMO, unless you can cite 5+ plays every game AND be sure the Mavs players never received any favorable calls, it's pointless to even bring up officiating for our discussion, since Wade's play was so senstational anyway. Certainly, the free throw advantage you've referenced (+5 for the team) isn't historically unique.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

IMO, unless you can cite 5+ plays every game AND be sure the Mavs players never received any favorable calls, it's pointless to even bring up officiating for our discussion, since Wade's play was so senstational anyway. Certainly, the free throw advantage you've referenced (+5 for the team) isn't historically unique.

I think the issue here is the combination of a statistical free throw deficit, and the play at the end of game 5. That play helped the casual fan to put a face on this issue, and the statistical evidence to back them up was already there.

There have been other questionable calls in the playoffs before in tight situations, as well as other series where the free throw deficit was lopsided. This one turned into the perfect storm. What's funny is, nobody bothered to focus on the officiating until that moment in game 5. After that point, this is all anybody bothered to mention.

It is nothing like game 6 of the Lakers/Kings series in 2002, where the entire 4th quarter was officiated questionably. It was one single play that changed everyone's perception, and some statistics to fall back on (even if they did nothing but prove Miami was the aggressor in that series).

[mopper8]

Game 5 went into OT and Nowitzki hit the potential gamewinner at the end of the OT. After that Wade was allowed to make an offensive foul and a palming violation just to call a touch foul on Nowitzki by the referee who was standing at midcourt, while BOTH other referees decided non-call.

I figured this would be the play you were talking about when you linked the video. There is a still photo (can anyone find it? The site I found it on pulled it down...) of that play and Wade is pushed in the back AND hit on the arm. It's *clearly* a foul.

That is not the point here, the point is that the Mavericks defense had no chance to defend Wade, because of the way the referees called that specific play. Look at how Wade is committing an offensive foul on Terry, after that he is on front of Harris and Harris gives him no room to go somewhere, but Wade just carried the ball (that is called palming violation) to make a move to the middle and get the space for the drive to the basket. Two clear violations of the rules, non of that was called. So, explain how they should have avoid that? It was impossible. If "let the players decide the game" applies, neither situation should have been called, if they want to have a game by the rules, call the offensive foul and/or the palming violation. Without those violation Wade would have never been in the position to be fouled underneath the basket, in fact the Mavericks would have got possession with a 1 point lead.

I'd just like to say that I think it's a little ridiculous to re-litigate one play. It's only a "critical play" in the series to the extent that (a)Dallas blew a huge opportunity in game 3 and (b)Dallas blew a huge opportunity in game 6 and (c)Miami got arguably jobbed in game 1.

In terms of (c), I remember almost breaking something I was so pissed about the officiating. Dallas may have only taken 7 more FTAs that game (26-19), which btw I'm sure people forget, but I still think it's ridiculous that literally nobody but Dwyane Wade and Shaquille O'Neal took FTs for Miami. True story, see for yourself here

While Miami didn't have anyone beyond those 2 how was particularly great at drawing fouls (though Zo did manage 3.4 FTA/game in only 20mpg, not too bad), the rest of their 8-man rotation combined for an average of 11.7 FTA/game...and got exactly 0 in game 1.

I'm sorry, but that pissed me off to no end, and nobody talks about it. At the end of the day, it was a 7 game series, it went 6 full games, and even if it was incredibly pivotal, one play did not decide the series. That play did not make Dallas choke up a 13-point lead in game 3, s**t the bed in game 4, or lose in game 6 on their own court. Oh and by the way, in the game 4 blowout, Wade only took 9 FTA.

In that comeback from down 13 with 6:34 to go in game 3, here were the points Miami scored:
Wade Jump Bank
Wade Driving Layup
Wade Free Throw 1 of 1
Posey Jump Shot
Wade Jump Shot
Wade Driving Layup
O'Neal Free Throw 1 of 2
O'Neal Free Throw 2 of 2
Wade Jump Shot
Haslem Free Throw 1 of 2
Haslem Free Throw 2 of 2
Posey Free Throw 2 of 2
Payton Jump Shot
Wade Free Throw 1 of 2

Wade went to the line twice. That's it. Dirk also went to the line twice in that period.

I'm sorry, it may have been a questionable call (or missed call, or whatever) in a pivotal situation, but it was not the series, and Dallas had more than ample opportunities in a number of other games, and they have nobody but themselves to blame for that.

[ElGee]

From the outset, I'll make it clear, I probably won't be voting for Wade in my top 3 at least - I have always maintained that Shaq's impact on the Heat gets overlooked - of course he's gonna fare badly in APM or on any stat based on box score numbers. He was 2nd in MVP voting in the preceding year and all of a sudden, in the space one year his contributions are delegated to role player status.

The Heat wouldn't have won a title without Shaq. It's Shaq who has proven he can take a team to the Finals time and again. You can change the shooting guard to Wade, or Kobe or Penny and that team still goes to the Final. You change the center and that team flames out in the Conference Finals.

Just curious - when do you think Kobe Bryant ever played at Wade's level in the 06 playoffs?

Against a similar Detroit defense in 04, Bryant, with a younger Shaq, and similar quality role players, was horrendous against Detroit. Lakers lost in 5. The closest 4th quarter, I'm-not-losing-this-game, takeover act to Wade's he pulled on such a stage was in 2000 G4 vs. Indiana...4 shots in OT. Bryant's been in the playoffs and on the Finals stage numerous times and I've never seen anything close to that.

I'm just not seeing what the evidence is for "just swap in Kobe" and they suddenly win...? (Would Kobe even want to play with Shaq )

[mysticbb]

But I'm not quite following -- are you suggesting that the entire series was somehow tilted to favor Dwyane Wade as an individual?

What? I didn't say that, never. That series was NOT some sort of conspiracy. Part of that was human error, but the bigger part was the way the game is called today to give the perimeter player more room to score. Wade just used that to his advantage in an awesome degree. That is the reason why I have Wade overall as 2nd and clearly as 1st for the playoffs.

Isn't it just more likely that Wade -- who possesses arguably the greatest first step in NBA history -- was just too good to be stopped by any of Dallas' perimeter players?

Well, I don't want to get into an argument for the greatest first step, because I don't think that belongs to Wade, but you are right, in average the Mavericks perimeter defense wasn't a match for Wade. Johnson didn't adjust, because he had more respect for Shaquille O'Neal.

Anyway, in this specific situation at the end of game 5 the Mavericks defense was rather good. Terry was in position to take on the offensive foul, it wasn't called, Harris was able to trap Wade, but Wade carried the ball. The only thing was probably Dampier boxing out Shaquille O'Neal instead of coming over for the block from the helpside. Well, I bet in that case the referees would have also called a foul (or Wade would have just pass the ball to a wide open O'Neal). Point is, there was just no chance for the Mavericks defense in that specific play.

IMO, unless you can cite 5+ plays every game AND be sure the Mavs players never received any favorable calls, it's pointless to even bring up officiating for our discussion, since Wade's play was so senstational anyway. Certainly, the free throw advantage you've referenced (+5 for the team) isn't historically unique.

Ok, you missed the point. That should not dimish Wade's play, but was brought up by me, because some people punished Nowitzki for not winning the championship. Thus your statement is rather redundant.

[ElGee]

But I'm not quite following -- are you suggesting that the entire series was somehow tilted to favor Dwyane Wade as an individual?

What? I didn't say that, never. That series was NOT some sort of conspiracy. Part of that was human error, but the bigger part was the way the game is called today to give the perimeter player more room to score. Wade just used that to his advantage in an awesome degree. That is the reason why I have Wade overall as 2nd and clearly as 1st for the playoffs.

Isn't it just more likely that Wade -- who possesses arguably the greatest first step in NBA history -- was just too good to be stopped by any of Dallas' perimeter players?

Well, I don't want to get into an argument for the greatest first step, because I don't think that belongs to Wade, but you are right, in average the Mavericks perimeter defense wasn't a match for Wade. Johnson didn't adjust, because he had more respect for Shaquille O'Neal.

Anyway, in this specific situation at the end of game 5 the Mavericks defense was rather good. Terry was in position to take on the offensive foul, it wasn't called, Harris was able to trap Wade, but Wade carried the ball. The only thing was probably Dampier boxing out Shaquille O'Neal instead of coming over for the block from the helpside. Well, I bet in that case the referees would have also called a foul (or Wade would have just pass the ball to a wide open O'Neal). Point is, there was just no chance for the Mavericks defense in that specific play.

IMO, unless you can cite 5+ plays every game AND be sure the Mavs players never received any favorable calls, it's pointless to even bring up officiating for our discussion, since Wade's play was so senstational anyway. Certainly, the free throw advantage you've referenced (+5 for the team) isn't historically unique.

Ok, you missed the point. That should not dimish Wade's play, but was brought up by me, because some people punished Nowitzki for not winning the championship. Thus your statement is rather redundant.

Well, I think it's silly to punish any player for the results of their team without looking at their play. All this officiating stuff is centered around Wade, independent of Dirk. It's still valid to say "Dirk could have done x or y." It was a close series anyway...

[Dr Positivity]

With KG, I don't think it's a matter of what he didn't do, rather than the fact that there's an excess of qualified candidates.

To me, Wade's the pretty clear pick at one.

After that, you have some order of Nash, Nowitzki and Kobe. And after that, you have some order of LeBron, Duncan and Garnett.

Not a lot of separation in those two groupings, in my opinion.

So you're saying the competition in 07-08 just wasn't as good as 05-06? Because otherwise...

I mean, I after I had already decided what my ranking was going to be for this season, I went back and looked at where I had him in 07-08: 4th that year, 5th this. That seems to make sense to me as he really didn't play much differently. But if you have Garnett 1st or 2nd that year and off your ballot this year...

Are you just saying the bar was higher in 05-06? Unless Garnett played markedly better in 07-08- or unless you're giving him props for having better teammates- you kinda have to go with that, no?

I voted for Garnett in 08 because I feel his presence mentally lifted the defensive intensity of that team to an almost unheard of place, which is the main reason they were so good. Regardless of whether Garnett was any less intense his last couple years in Minnesota, clearly he didn't have that impact on his teammates. Whether that's their fault or his is irrelevant, the impact wasn't there.

[mysticbb]

I'm sorry, it may have been a questionable call (or missed call, or whatever) in a pivotal situation, but it was not the series, and Dallas had more than ample opportunities in a number of other games, and they have nobody but themselves to blame for that.

Seriously, when did I say there should be no blame on the Mavericks? NEVER! I just pointed out that in that specific play, which was probably the most important play in that whole series for the Heat, the Mavericks defense had no chance to defend Wade. The Heat going to Dallas while being down 2-3? Could they win both games on the road? I doubt that.
Why is that important in this thread? Because that series is used to dimish Nowitzki play over the course of the WHOLE season.

[mysticbb]

Well, I think it's silly to punish any player for the results of their team without looking at their play. All this officiating stuff is centered around Wade, independent of Dirk. It's still valid to say "Dirk could have done x or y." It was a close series anyway...

Yes, for sure. But you picked a specific part of the argument out of the context. ;)

[Silver Bullet]

From the outset, I'll make it clear, I probably won't be voting for Wade in my top 3 at least - I have always maintained that Shaq's impact on the Heat gets overlooked - of course he's gonna fare badly in APM or on any stat based on box score numbers. He was 2nd in MVP voting in the preceding year and all of a sudden, in the space one year his contributions are delegated to role player status.

The Heat wouldn't have won a title without Shaq. It's Shaq who has proven he can take a team to the Finals time and again. You can change the shooting guard to Wade, or Kobe or Penny and that team still goes to the Final. You change the center and that team flames out in the Conference Finals.

Just curious - when do you think Kobe Bryant ever played at Wade's level in the 06 playoffs?

Against a similar Detroit defense in 04, Bryant, with a younger Shaq, and similar quality role players, was horrendous against Detroit. Lakers lost in 5. The closest 4th quarter, I'm-not-losing-this-game, takeover act to Wade's he pulled on such a stage was in 2000 G4 vs. Indiana...4 shots in OT. Bryant's been in the playoffs and on the Finals stage numerous times and I've never seen anything close to that.

I'm just not see what the evidence is for "just swap in Kobe" and they suddenly win...? (Would Kobe even want to play with Shaq )

I'm sorry - did you just compare the 04 Pistons with the 06 Pistons ?

The one with a 95 Drtg with a team with a 104 Drtg ?

The one that allowed a opp 3% of 30.2 vs the one that allowed 35.6 ?

I mean, one of em is a top 5 defensive team all time - the other was barely top 5 that season -

[mopper8]

I'm sorry, it may have been a questionable call (or missed call, or whatever) in a pivotal situation, but it was not the series, and Dallas had more than ample opportunities in a number of other games, and they have nobody but themselves to blame for that.

Seriously, when did I say there should be no blame on the Mavericks? NEVER! I just pointed out that in that specific play, which was probably the most important play in that whole series for the Heat, the Mavericks defense had no chance to defend Wade. The Heat going to Dallas while being down 2-3? Could they win both games on the road? I doubt that.
Why is that important in this thread? Because that series is used to dimish Nowitzki play over the course of the WHOLE season.

Oh...my bad. I don't think it should diminish Dirk--were I voting he'd be #2. I just don't think he has enough to be #1 given Wade's performance.

And I mean, really, this is Player of the Year...when people think of this season, do you really think they're gonna say, "05-06, yeah...that was the year Dirk was just a monster?" No.
Or, "oh, that was the year Nash got his 2nd MVP?" No.

When people think of that season, they'll say, "oh that was the year Wade went apesh*t on the Mavs in the Finals". Which is why IMO he's the obvious #1.

[Sedale Threatt]

So you're saying the competition in 07-08 just wasn't as good as 05-06? Because otherwise...

I mean, I after I had already decided what my ranking was going to be for this season, I went back and looked at where I had him in 07-08: 4th that year, 5th this. That seems to make sense to me as he really didn't play much differently. But if you have Garnett 1st or 2nd that year and off your ballot this year...

Are you just saying the bar was higher in 05-06? Unless Garnett played markedly better in 07-08- or unless you're giving him props for having better teammates- you kinda have to go with that, no?

A good post, I'll address this later a bit deeper when I have more time.

I will say this -- I think team success, or lack thereof, while often out of a particular player's control, absolutely has to be taken into account on some level.

If not to punish players who didn't achieve, then to reward guys who had impact -- i.e. Wade's Finals eruption. Obviously, he never would have been there in the first place without a good team and coach.

But he took advantage of the situation, and greatly impacted the course of that season and NBA history in the process. That needs to be taken into account, in my opinion. Otherwise, let's strip this of all context and simply crunch numbers.

A boring exercise, in my opinion.