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Retro POY '00-01 (Voting Complete)

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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#81 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 2:53 pm

Some things to point out regarding Dr Mufasa's post about Iverson...

Most teams recognized it is impossible to play Iverson straight up and thus threw many men against him.


Watch the first half of Game 1 of the Finals and tell me that Kobe didn't play about as well as any individual could. He blocked his shot, what, 3 times (4 considering one of them was a bail out call)? Forced him to shoot something like 7-19 (I have these numbers at home, so I might be off a little)?

If Iverson is so unstoppable one-on-one, what does that say about Kobe's defense on him?

Nevermind the fact that the Lakers mostly had Fisher on him for the rest of the series and was still inefficient, and that's without much help. Here's some food for thought though... the Sixers had trouble bringing the ball up the floor and many times Iverson would get the ball late in the shot clock and be forced into a difficult long range shot. Can someone tell me why?

Now I will say that perhaps other teams played him differently. I'm not going to sit here and say that I watched a ton of Sixers games. I only watched when we played them, and a few times on national T.V.

Clearly the proper move for Iverson when double teamed would be to find an open 3 point shooter, whereas it's his fault he took too many contested shots, right?


It's hard to pass out of double teams, particularly to the other end of the court where there is likely a wide open man waiting, when you're barely 6'0. That's part of the problem. The other part of the problem is that, as mentioned, was that he wasn't surrounded by great 3-point shooters.

The thing is, how can the 76ers shooters be blamed when they aren't getting touches? Iverson takes (in certain years) almost half of his teams 3PA. He is largely responsible for the team being ranked so low since he's a poor 3-point shooter himself, and if he's not setting up guys with great looks (like other great wing player do), then perhaps some of the blame has to go his way. At the same time, what shooters could have replaced the guys he had and played great defense, which is really the main reason they were competitive in 2001?

There's another trend with Iverson that's really interesting, and that's the progression of his TS% throughout his career. In 97-98 he had a solid .535. His next 6 years after that he posted .508, .496, .518, .489, .500, .478. Then in 2005 (the O'Brien year) he jumped to .532, before 2 more years in Philly at .543 and .540. Iverson is now in very solid efficiency territory. Finally he goes to Denver and puts up a sparkling .567 in perhaps the best year of his career at 32.


.567 is really good, but .543 and .540 are barely above league average. Here's what the average TS% looked like in the league through 2009:

2008-09: 0.544
2007-08: 0.540
2006-07: 0.541
2005-06: 0.535
2004-05: 0.529
2003-04: 0.516
2002-03: 0.519
2001-02: 0.520
2000-01: 0.517
1999-00: 0.522

How can it be a coincidence that Iverson's 5 most efficient years in order were the the 2 beside Melo, with Webber, with Coleman, and Obie's 3 point shooting year?


See above. Part of it is indeed coincidence, with the other part being surrounded by better scorers.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#82 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Rick45 wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:If I see one more person put AI ahead of Kobe, I'm putting Kobe at the top of my list to make up for it.

I Know I' am not voting, but I like reading these threads, and I knew you could not have a mature voting process with things like this going on. I don't know if he was kidding it does not seem like it but wow


I already said I was joking, and reading some of the other posts, I do appreciate AI a little more for being the only real choice on offense.

That doesn't mean he was a great choice though. It's like everyone gives him a pass for being short and scoring 30+, which I think is crazy. Oooh the little engine that could. BS. He's not the first wing player to be surrounded by complete crap. Look at some of the casts that Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and LeBron had.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#83 » by Baller 24 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:06 pm

Great posts on Iverson, really makes me change the way I've ranked him. He could be going 3rd, maybe.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#84 » by Rick45 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:20 pm

semi-sentient wrote:
Rick45 wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:If I see one more person put AI ahead of Kobe, I'm putting Kobe at the top of my list to make up for it.

I Know I' am not voting, but I like reading these threads, and I knew you could not have a mature voting process with things like this going on. I don't know if he was kidding it does not seem like it but wow


I already said I was joking, and reading some of the other posts, I do appreciate AI a little more for being the only real choice on offense.

That doesn't mean he was a great choice though. It's like everyone gives him a pass for being short and scoring 30+, which I think is crazy. Oooh the little engine that could. BS. He's not the first wing player to be surrounded by complete crap. Look at some of the casts that Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and LeBron had.

OK I could read into the sarcasm through text, but still AI WAS THE MAN in those playoffs
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#85 » by Rick45 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:24 pm

Allen Iverson 54 pts vs Toronto Raptors 2001 NBA Playoff Gm2

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaGWBWAomk&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Allen Iverson 52 pts vs Toronto Raptors 2001 NBA Playoff Gm5

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvOqS9yITbo[/youtube]
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#86 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 3:26 pm

TrueLAfan wrote:I think Dr. Mufasa has it right about AI. I've never liked Allen Iverson. But it's time to stop thinking that advanced statistical metrics are a be-all end-all, and admit that he's in the middle of a 5 year run with mediocre teammates where his teams played .600 ball.


Advanced metrics?

Please tell me what statistics support Iverson being ahead of Kobe that aren't advanced. FGA? FTA?

Nevermind actual observation and the fact that one of these guys plays poor defense and the other was particularly good throughout the year.

You're that impressed with Iverson's scoring without help that you'll rank him above Bryant, yet you left Kobe off your 2005-06 ballot altogether?

OK then.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#87 » by Doctor MJ » Thu May 13, 2010 3:36 pm

semi-sentient wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:I think Dr. Mufasa has it right about AI. I've never liked Allen Iverson. But it's time to stop thinking that advanced statistical metrics are a be-all end-all, and admit that he's in the middle of a 5 year run with mediocre teammates where his teams played .600 ball.


Advanced metrics?

Please tell me what statistics support Iverson being ahead of Kobe that aren't advanced. FGA? FTA?

Nevermind actual observation and the fact that one of these guys plays poor defense and the other was particularly good throughout the year.

You're that impressed with Iverson's scoring without help that you'll rank him above Bryant, yet you left Kobe off your 2005-06 ballot altogether?

OK then.


Well I've got Kobe over AI, but it's pretty clear what he means I think. Take away shooting efficiency, and Iverson's playoff stats are 33/5/6, with 2.4 steals, and tons of big performances with the season on the line. Kobe's stats were 29/7/6, with 1.5 steals.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#88 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 3:37 pm

Since this is apparently now the debate, here's the numbers for both Kobe and AI, similar to how I posted numbers for both Kobe and Duncan (and I'm probably going to drop Kobe behind Duncan, BTW -- still trying to figure out how to measure the gap in GP/MP between he and Kobe).

Regular Season - Basic Stats

Code: Select all

         G    MP    FG%   3P%   FT%   TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PTS
===================================================================
   Kobe  68   40.9  .464  .305  .853  5.9  5.0  1.7  0.6  3.2  28.5
Iverson  71   42.0  .420  .320  .814  3.8  4.6  2.5  0.3  3.3  31.1


Playoffs - Basic Stats

Code: Select all

         G    MP    FG%   3P%   FT%   TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PTS
===================================================================
   Kobe  16   43.4  .469  .324  .821  7.3  6.1  1.6  0.8  3.2  29.4
Iverson  22   46.2  .389  .338  .774  4.7  6.1  2.4  0.3  2.9  32.9


Regular Season - Advanced Stats

Code: Select all

         PER   TS%   oRtg   dRtg   WS
=======================================
   Kobe  24.5  .552  112    105    11.3
Iverson  24.0  .518  106    99     11.8


Playoffs - Advanced Stats

Code: Select all

         PER   TS%   oRtg   dRtg   WS
======================================
   Kobe  25.0  .555  116    99     3.8
Iverson  22.5  .480  105   106     2.7
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#89 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu May 13, 2010 3:44 pm

Kobe HS Coach before the NBA finals

Philadelphia Inquirer

Lower Merion basketball coach Gregg Downer remembers Kobe Bryant swooping by helpless high school defenders night after night while leading the Aces to a state Class AAAA title in 1996.
Five years later, Bryant is doing the same thing in the NBA.

Downer remembers Bryant wanting to take all the big shots, make all the big passes, and block all the key shots during a four-year career in which Bryant became Southeastern Pennsylvania's career scoring leader with 2,883 points.

Downer switches on the TV these days and sees many of the same qualities that made Bryant a high school standout.

Still, Bryant's game has evolved since he was the top high school player in the country in 1996, a flashy senior who donned sunglasses shortly after leading Lower Merion to a state championship win over Erie Cathedral Prep and announced to breathless followers that he was skipping college to enter the NBA draft.

His defense is better. His offensive game is more refined. Bryant has added muscle to his body and nuances to his game. He also has added an NBA title to his resume and is out to win another one.
"None of this surprises me," Downer said. "My vision, when he got to the NBA, was that he'd be a Michael Jordan-type player."

It was a vision of the future based on Bryant's talent, desire and work ethic. Now, Downer and other area coaches and players see a player who has taken a talent so evident in high school and honed it in the pros.

Take Bryant's offense. He could get to the basket any time he wanted in high school. But he didn't have a consistent jump shot, certainly not as consistent as it is today.

"I always used to tell him to work on his medium game," Downer said. "I told him his medium game would be the foundation of who he is. Now, when he needs a basket, he gets the 12-foot shot."
"If you played him tight, he'd go by you and get the whole team in foul trouble," said Ben Campetti, an assistant at Conestoga in Bryant's senior year and head coach at the school the last four seasons.

"You wanted him to shoot from the outside."

There have been other offensive changes. Bryant lets the game come to him more now than he did in high school or during his early NBA days. Bryant went right most of the time in high school. Now, it's difficult to shade him to either side.

The biggest change, however, has been on defense. Downer often used Bryant as the last line of defense in high school, a player who would hover around the basket or cover up when opponents broke the Aces' press. Downer didn't want Bryant to pick up fouls and often didn't let him guard an opponent's best offensive player.

"He always was blocking shots off the ball," said Chester coach Fred Pickett, whose team fell to Lower Merion in the District 1 final and the state semifinals in 1996. "But, man-to-man, he was the weak link."

Now, Bryant is one of the NBA's top defenders. "I'm a little surprised at how well he's played defense at that level," Pickett said. "But that's what the great ones do. They know where their weaknesses are and take the time to develop that area."

Downer might have sensed Bryant's impending stardom, but many area coaches burned by the former Lower Merion star figured it would take longer.

Why the quick ascent for the son of former Sixer Joe Bryant?

"Three things," Campetti said. "He has a great work ethic, he has a great family situation, and he had a high school coach who made him play the right way."

That coach will be looking on intently when the Lakers face the Sixers tonight. Downer will notice the subtle changes in Kobe Bryant's game since high school. He'll also notice the similarities.
"He's always thrived on pressure," Downer said. "I never met a human being who had such a fierce desire to succeed. He wants to be the best. He hates to lose."
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#90 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu May 13, 2010 3:50 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Take away shooting efficiency...


But isn't this a pretty important indicator? I am by no means an advanced stat nerd, but I've read over and over and over from those who are that this is one of the most important indicators of success. If so, that seems like a fairly critical component to remove from the discussion.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#91 » by Rick45 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:52 pm

This is how I would vote

1. Shaq
2. Iverson/TD
3. Kobe
4. KG
5. V.Carter

but that's just buy watching the games not going all into the stats so I will just read and let you guys post
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#92 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu May 13, 2010 3:53 pm

semi-sentient wrote:It's like everyone gives him a pass for being short and scoring 30+, which I think is crazy. Oooh the little engine that could. BS.


That's about how I feel. "AI plays sooooo hard!"

Yay.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#93 » by Rick45 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:58 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:It's like everyone gives him a pass for being short and scoring 30+, which I think is crazy. Oooh the little engine that could. BS.


That's about how I feel. "AI plays sooooo hard!"

Yay.

He is 5-11 that's why I think he gets a semi pass people still brings it up all the time so he doesn't get a pass
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#94 » by drza » Thu May 13, 2010 4:02 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
drza wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:How did KG outplay Kobe in the RS? :-?

I give Kobe the edge over Duncan because both had a great RS, but Kobe had the suprior PS, and personally destroyed the Spurs in the WCF.


I guess some easy arguments for KG over Kobe in the RS would be that:

1) KG did more to carry his team to 47 wins than Kobe did to get the lakers to 56
2) KG finished higher in the MVP vote
3) KG played more games
4) They measured similar in PER (slight edge Kobe) and Win Shares (KG slightly more, Kobe slightly more per 48 min) but KG had a solid advantage in Wins Produced
5) Garnett finished 2nd in the Defensive Player of the Year vote and got a bunch of votes, enough to actually have been a legit challenge to win it

And it's hard to knock what KG did in the postseason either. He went head-to-head with the Duncan/Robinson duo while Robinson was still a star, and more than held his own.

:Shrugs: I think a decent argument could be made either way

All fair points. I see both KG & Kobe at the same level in the RS, but wouldn't say KG outplayed him.

As for the playoffs, I would say Kobe was far superior to KG. Their performances against the Spurs alone give Kobe a significant edge that year.


I'm not sure that you can directly compare their performances against the Spurs, because of how the Spurs were built. The Spurs were built around 2 of the best defensive big men of all-time that were still playing at a high level...and their entire defensive focus was Garnett. What Kobe did was dang impressive, no disrespect intended, but Duncan and Robinson were focused a lot more on Shaq than on Kobe in that series.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. It's not perfect, but Duncan/Robinson at PF/C were somewhat analogous to Jordan and Pippen as defensive wings. What KG did against those Spurs would have been something like if Kobe led the '06 Lakers against a 90s Bulls team in the postseason and played Jordan to a stand-still production wise but was much more efficient overall (see Bastillion's post on page 1 that details the KG/Duncan head-to-head matchup). Even if those Lakers lost to the Bulls in 4 games, most would feel that was a heck of a performance by Kobe against stacked odds and great defensive wings. And it wouldn't really be fair to compare that with a big man who might have had better numbers against the Bulls but wasn't having to go through Jordan and Pippen to do it.

Analogies eventually get strained, but I hope you can see where I was going. No doubt Kobe was huge against the Spurs. But KG went heads up with the player that many believe to be the best power forward of all-time, and that power-forward was backed by a player that was still one of the best defensive centers in the league. And Garnett was the best player on the court, even in a loss. I just don't see that Kobe's postseason was "far superior" to that.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#95 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu May 13, 2010 4:06 pm

1. Shaq. Mortal lock.
2. Duncan. Mortal lock.
3. Kobe. Could have easily gone with KG here, but I want to recognize him for a magnificent run in the playoffs, in every round. This was his arrival as a true star.
4. Garnett. KG just gives you soooooo much more than Iverson, in my opinion. Take a 6-0 volume scorer over a 7-footer who dominates on both ends? I just don't get that.
5. Iverson. Don't really like it, but there's nobody left. Dirk wasn't quite Dirk yet, C-Webb missed almost half the year, and Carter and McGrady are basically cut from the same cloth.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#96 » by lorak » Thu May 13, 2010 4:08 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Well I've got Kobe over AI, but it's pretty clear what he means I think. Take away shooting efficiency, and Iverson's playoff stats are 33/5/6, with 2.4 steals, and tons of big performances with the season on the line.


Exactly. Plus he stopped (and played great, IMO one of the greatest finals games of all time) Lakers from becoming the first undefeated team in playoffs history. That should count for something.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#97 » by lorak » Thu May 13, 2010 4:12 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:C-Webb missed almost half the year,


He played 70 games and this was his the best regular season ever. However he had some bad games in terms of shooting percentages in playoffs, but overall still played very good.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#98 » by semi-sentient » Thu May 13, 2010 4:12 pm

While we're taking away things that AI is bad at, we should also take away his defense.

In that case, AI's got a damn fine argument for being POY.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#99 » by lorak » Thu May 13, 2010 4:13 pm

AI wasn't bad defender.
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Re: Retro POY '00-01 (ends Fri evening PST) 

Post#100 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu May 13, 2010 4:14 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:C-Webb missed almost half the year,


He played 70 games and this was his the best regular season ever. However he had some bad games in terms of shooting percentages, but overall still played very good.


You're right, my bad. I was thinking of 02. Which is awesome, because now I can consider taking AI off my list completely. Going to be tough, though, as he was REALLY bad in the playoffs.

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