Retro POY '98-99 (Voting Complete)

[TrueLAfan]

I've got to open with this. 1999 nearly made me want to give up on basketball. The NBa was at it's lowest point in terms of play, IMO. The strike didn't help anyone. The fact that players who were selfish and childish and cost their teams in the postseason can make a top 5 list says something about the quality of play this year.

1. Duncan--One of the best, if not the best player in the RS. Best player in the playoffs.
2. Malone--Epic fail in Game 6 of the playoff series with Portland. Epic fail. But he was pretty solid in the other 10 post seasons games (23.1-11.7-4.6), and really held together an aging team during the RS. (Stockton was for all intents and purposes a part time player at this point.) Good enough for #2 in a miserable NBA year.
3. Zo--Really good regular season, and a solid playoff campaign. The fact that Tim Hardaway disappeared totally and completely in the playoffs cost the Heat. I guess I'll keep him at 3 in this horrific year.
4. AI--The 15 win improvement (over 82 games) isn't because the Sixers gained new players, or switched coaches. It wasn't because Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, Matt Geiger, and George Lynch were elite or even above average as a group. Without Iverson, the team was lousy. With him, they improved by 15 games and upset a 50 win team in the first round. Was lousy in the second round...but at least he didn't throw his teammates or coach under the bus. That's how low the bar was in 1999.
5. Shaq--Great numbers. Not so great on court behavior. Glen Rice noted that the team didn't play together well and lacked on-court leadership, a not-too-subtle hint about Shaq. A comment from Sports Illustrated..."after a playoff loss to the San Antonio Spurs, O'Neal cursed Rambis in the locker room for imposing on him to please join his teammates in a circle." Even if you want to be the man, you have to be part of the team. Sure, Rambis was a rookie coach...but wouldn't you think the veteran superstar of the team should have helped him out--both verbally, and on the court? Shaq was a bean counters delight in 1999. He was also a selfish, immature player. If Grant Hill had won a playoff series, I'd have put him in over Shaq.

I was kind of throwing up in my mouth when I wrote those last two. Grant Hill is a hell of a nice guy, but he didn't have the impact that AI or Shaq did. IMO, there's no excuse for Shaq this year. None. It was a year where a good veteran would have had a calming effect on his younger teammates, used his immense skills to strengthen team weaknesses, and worked with
(and used his influence with other players with) his rookie coach. Shaq did the opposite of every one of those things. I could give flying f*** about PER or TS% win shares. Shaq wasn't close to the most valuable player in the league in 1999. Not close. And I ranked him a spot higher than he actually ranked in the actual MVP voting at the time.

[Sedale Threatt]

I'm not going to change my vote, but you raise some very valid criticisms about Shaq.

One of his biggest problems at that stage of his career was that he'd never had a coach who could make him toe the line. Hill, Harris, Rambis -- none of them commanded his respect. Please note that I'm not excusing that, at all.

Just pointing out that all those issues changed with Phil (for a few years, anyway), and we saw the results.

[Optimism Prime]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Alonzo Mourning
5. Jason Kidd

[Doctor MJ]

I'm not going to change my vote, but you raise some very valid criticisms about Shaq.

One of his biggest problems at that stage of his career was that he'd never had a coach who could make him toe the line. Hill, Harris, Rambis -- none of them commanded his respect. Please note that I'm not excusing that, at all.

Just pointing out that all those issues changed with Phil (for a few years, anyway), and we saw the results.

It's worse than that though because it didn't take long before his bad behavior came back even with Jackson or Riley. So not only is successful coaching Shaq about clout instead of coaching ability, even clout only slows down his eventual progression toward malcontent.

[Sedale Threatt]

Oh, absolutely. I was just trying to say that he at least got into line, if only for a bit, under Jackson.

Even then, I don't think he had any real problems with Jackson until after he left. Jackson was very shrewd in that situation, I think. He knew he couldn't placate both, so he chose the one guy who needed to be stroked.

At any rate, no question Shaq really left a lot to be desired with the intangibles.

[TMACFORMVP]

1. Tim Duncan
2. Shaquille O'neal
3. Karl Malone
4. Alonzo Mourning

The 5th spot is between Iverson, Hill, and Kidd.

I understand Iverson played poorly against the Pacers in the second round, but how much is that a factor when both Kidd and Hill failed to advance, while Iverson had a solid series in the first round, leading many to believe what was an upset over the Magic.

Code: Select all

Game 1: 30 / 5 / 7 on 12-29. (2 steals)
Game 2: 13 / 2 / 3 on 4-15. (2 steals)
Game 3: 33 / 5 / 5 on 14-28 (10 steals)
Game 4: 37 / 3 / 9 on 14-27 (2 steals)

28.2 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 6.0 APG, 4.0 SPG on .444 FG%

That alone is better than the production both Hill and Kidd produced in their respective first round series. But that's not really the question, since both Kidd and Hill were the better players in the regular season, more efficient, and much better all rounded (to note, Kidd had a 52% TS, Hill had a 54% TS, while Iverson had a 51% TS - so the difference wasn't staggering). All of them played nearly a full season (in fact Kidd and Hill played all 50), so it's hard to gauge the sort of team success they had without their best player. As for Iverson and the Sixers, they went 0-2 when he was not in the lineup, so a 28-20 pace.

Iverson was actually ranked 4th in MVP voting (ahead of Shaq, Hill, Kidd etc), but Kidd was also first team defense to boot with his first team All-NBA. Hill had more competition with Duncan and Karl, so its justified he didn't make the first team. Iverson also did win the scoring honors in this respective season.

I want to say Iverson, but I feel Kidd/Hill are the slightly better players. But when I go over it again, you see Iverson's impact on those Sixers team went beyond those paltry shooting numbers he put up. For now though, being a scoring champ, leading his team to 28 wins (more than Kidd, one less than Hill - while playing two less games), and performing better in the playoffs, I'd give the edge to Iverson. I can be easily swayed though.

5. Allen Iverson

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) Duncan
2) Malone
3) Zo
4) Hill
5) Shaq

[ronnymac2]

Don't you think this comparison is a little more apt, considering Shaq and Duncan were the best players for their respective teams, and fairly comparable in terms of responsibility and role?

(Rondo, BTW)

No. Rondo was the guy Boston played off. I don't like Rondo, but after rooting against him last series and rooting for him against the Magic- he really may be Boston's best player at this point. Because I hated him the most against CLE, and I like what he's doing against ORL. He's doing something right.


Ahhh...time to vote I guess.......

Final Vote

Duncan
Shaq
Malone
Mourning
Kidd

Honorable mention to Iverson, Robinson, and Hill. Especially Iverson. He would have went fifth if Kidd hadn't randomly put up the best shooting stats he ever had in his prime that year. Iverson was also a playoff rookie, though he actually played really well. I gave the edge to Kidd, mainly on tiebreaker advantages.

And yes, I put Duncan first. Not because of the head-to-head. Not because of the finals MVP.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm hearing more out here, I remember my dedication to the NBA waning, the fallout of no Michael Jordan was a drain on my enthusiasm, the strike, I dunno, I just wasn't as avid a follower in this year as others.

I still don't ever remember thinking that Duncan or MAlone was actually better than Shaq that year at all. I'm gonna wait to see more arguments though.

[ElGee]

I'm still opposed to acknowledging that this year ever took place. Maybe the POY shares should only count 50/82 of a share.

My 1999 POY Ballot:

1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Alonzo Mourning
5. Allen Iverson

The first three are in their own tier to a certain degree -- Duncan wins out because of his play in the last 2 months of the season (a short season, so we could argue that PS means even more given sample size).

Malone's defense is underrated here, and his post-98 Finals team was still a threat despite being older and relying on him more than ever. He almost loses this spot based on G6 v Portland (truly a horrible performance at the biggest time), but I thought he played nicely in his three previous elimination games, especially G4 in Sacramento.

Shaq was the clear loser of this group to me, and the reasons have been sufficiently outlined in the thread. The defense really wasn't that good, fitness/fouling were more of an issue leading to decreased minutes and the team results were actually quite poor - a 2.68 SRS good for 9th in the league, right in between Atlanta and Philadelphia. The coaching was terrible, but that affected Shaq's play negatively.

The final 2 spots were down to Mourning, Iverson and Kidd (would rather those three than Hill, although he's a viable option as this group is close). Mourning was the clear winner, so that left AI and Kidd. Again, I wish we could have more macroscopic discussion about player's strengths at their peak, and this season challenged that notion between these two players. I could flip a coin and wouldn't care much about the result, but when forced to choose, Iverson gets the nod based on a better postseason.

There wasn't much discussion in this thread, so if others want to chime in on Iverson vs. Kidd (or Hill) I'm open to swapping the vote before the deadline.

[drza]

1) Duncan
2) Shaq
3) Robinson
4) Garnett
5) Malone

I thought seriously about going Duncan/Robinson 1-2 here. The primary criticism I've seen of Robinson for this year is that he deferred to Duncan on offense, but to that I say...so what? Those Spurs won primarily with their defense. Many in this thead don't value individual defense as much as individual offense, but in cases like this where it's so clearly the foundation of the team I do. IMO, Robinson was as crucial to the Spurs' success as Kobe was on some of the Lakers title runs or Ginobili was in the year I voted him in the top-3. So when you factor in that Robinson also graded out extremely well in PER and Win Shares, both of which are more influenced by offense than defense, in addition to his all-world defense I think Robinson easily deserves a top-5 slot.

[kaima]

I thought seriously about going Duncan/Robinson 1-2 here. The primary criticism I've seen of Robinson for this year is that he deferred to Duncan on offense, but to that I say...so what?

The 'so what' in this case is that Robinson was a lacking go-to guy at his peak. The guy you rank him over manhandled him in multiple post-seasons.

Without Robinson, do the Spurs win the title? Probably not. But you could make the same argument about the 90s Bulls and Rodman. Does that mean he's a top 5 player?

Anyway, 99 was such a bizarre year that I find its results hard to respect, whether we're talking MVP, Champion or Finals MVP.

It is notable that the Spurs had a relatively easy schedule in the last couple months, while their main competition, arguably Utah, had the most ridiculously difficult closing schedule in NBA history. That Utah team was punch drunk before the playoffs even started., with key injuries to boot.

[Silver Bullet]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Malone
4. Robinson
5. Iverson

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Kidd
5. Robinson

I've said quite a few negative things toward Shaq, and they basically say why Shaq isn't the Shaq of '99-00 and that's why he's below Duncan & Malone. Duncan I don't think many have a problem with, Malone more will. I'm very impressed by Malone's leadership by this time in his career. He was essentially leading teams to the 60+ win level each year despite Stockton really not being his peak self. Shaq was totally incapable of the: Shaq has 3 60 win seasons sprinkled throughout his career, and two of them occurred on teams he missed a ton of time. I gladly give Shaq all credit win his team wins it all, but when his team doesn't play at an elite level, I can't just go by gaudy stats.

Kidd takes the 4th spot. Played more minutes than anyone else, best individual stats of his career, and interestingly enough, this year he actually led an elite offense (probably more due to the strike hangover than anything else, but still). He was a bit disappointing in the playoffs, but Portland also stymied Malone so I wouldn't make too much of that.

Robinson - Was really debating about him more than anyone else. Part of me wants to put him #3, since I actually think if you put Shaq on the Spurs as forced #2 guy, the Spurs get way worse. So impressed by the way he handed over alpha status to Duncan without issue which then went on to become the most non-disfunctional elite-for-a-decade team since probably the 60s Celtics. What about Robinson's reduced stats? Per minute still awesome. What about his reduced minutes? He played 35 minutes per game in the playoff this year - and the next year when the team needed him more he played 39mpg while putting up huge numbers (albeit in a failed cause and unimpressive efficiency).

Honorable Mention:

Iverson - Tempting to put him on the top 5 with the upset of a team with the best record in the East in the first round, but with all the other upsets it's pretty clear that this year was total chaos. It's not enough to raise him over the last guard Kidd, and I can't help thinking about intangibles in the comparison with Robinson.

Zo - Great player. Feel bad about not including him. His teammates really let him down in the playoffs - but still, you're teammates are so much worse you'd expect a real improvement in scoring volume yet he was scoring less than Robinson did the next year.

Payton - Another year as a clear Top 10 guy.
Hill - Ditto.

Mutombo - Stellar defensive play leading his team to a solid season.

[Doctor MJ]

From sp6r:

This post is written without any idea what arguments have been made, unlike 00 were people were posting arguments in general thread. So understand this post is sort of an island. I tried to anticipate arguments, but I apologize if I missed obvious ones.

I understand people who question lockout season. But all teams started on same playing field. People will point up 8th seeded knicks making finals but next year they made ECF and year before made ECSF. NY was a good team.

1999
1. Shaq: IMO he was the best player this year but I understand this is a minority opinion. While he struggled against SA. The defensive duo of Robinson/Duncan was probably the greatest big man defensive combo in NBA history, so I give him a pass.
2. TD: IMO 2nd best player in RS, and had 2nd best PS
3. KG: great RS & PS.
4. Mourning: great RS & PS. I settled the tie between KG and Mourning by fact Heat underachieved in PS.
5. Malone: vintage Malone PS, and that is not a compliment.

HM
Robinson
Hill

[Doctor MJ]

Last call

[drza]

Give me 5 minutes. SP6r's post is making me check something.

ETA: Alright, I'm good. Due to time constraints I hadn't looked at all beyond the reasoning/arguments being mentioned in most of the thread. After his post, I wanted a minute to go back and double-check something. Thanks.

[Doctor MJ]

Give me 5 minutes. SP6r's post is making me check something.

ETA: Alright, I'm good. Due to time constraints I hadn't looked at all beyond the reasoning/arguments being mentioned in most of the thread. After his post, I wanted a minute to go back and double-check something. Thanks.

D'oh, drza, please tell me what you changed. I've already counted all the votes, really don't want to do it again.

[lorak]

Give me 5 minutes. SP6r's post is making me check something.

ETA: Alright, I'm good. Due to time constraints I hadn't looked at all beyond the reasoning/arguments being mentioned in most of the thread. After his post, I wanted a minute to go back and double-check something. Thanks.

D'oh, drza, please tell me what you changed. I've already counted all the votes, really don't want to do it again.

He added KG at 4th, so Zo out and Malone goes down to 5th.

[drza]

Give me 5 minutes. SP6r's post is making me check something.

ETA: Alright, I'm good. Due to time constraints I hadn't looked at all beyond the reasoning/arguments being mentioned in most of the thread. After his post, I wanted a minute to go back and double-check something. Thanks.

D'oh, drza, please tell me what you changed. I've already counted all the votes, really don't want to do it again.

No prob. I put KG at 4th, Malone at 5th, and dropped Mourning off the page. Due to time constraints I had considered only the candidates getting serious talk in this thread for my original vote. After SP's vote I went back and looked more closely at KG, realized that I had mistaken '99 for a previous year for him, and decided to make the switch. Sorry for any inconvenience.