Retro POY '97-98 (Voting Complete)

[Silver Bullet]

My vote:
1. Karl Malone
2. David Robinson - for the life of me, I can't figure out all the Tim Duncan love here. It was clearly D-Rob's team and he was clearly the better player at this stage. I don't get it.
3. Micheal Jordan
4. Shaq - best player in the league at this point, IMO. Missed wayy too many games
5. Gary Payton

Can you explain Jordan at 3?

not really - I've updated my rankings.

[bastillon]

It's always seemed sort of counter intuitive to me that great numbers wouldn't automatically translate into impact -- Chamberlain, for example. I know bastillon has used that argument against 70s Kareem as well.

Kareem's impact was epic almost all decade, but he did have couple of lesser years... probably connected to motivation and stuff.

my vote:
1.Karl Malone
2.Jordan
3.Shaq
4.DRob
5.Duncan

edit: I checked and Lakers were 17-8 without Shaq. still, his performance against Jazz was much better than Duncan's. it's close for 3-5, but Shaq was better.

explanation for Malone vs Jordan: I think MJ had significantly more help than Malone. Bulls without Pippen would be worse than Jazz, and only then supporting cast would be similar. Pippen just makes it unfair. Malone played better in the finals too, IIRC. tsherkin provided a lot of good responses on this matter so if you want my explanation you might just search through his posts.

[CellarDoor]

I'm in agreement with TMAC4MVP pretty much everywhere in this thread..
1. MJ
2. Karl
3. Shaq
4. Payton
5. Duncan

[bastillon]

Payton actually was better than Duncan. I'm putting him at 5.
1.Karl
2.MJ
3.Shaq
4.DRob
5.Payton

hope it's not much of a problem for you, Dr MJ

[ElGee]

From the 1998 thread, something that caught my eye about TS%:

In 1998 Robinson was significantly better defender than Duncan and also slightly better offensive player: better efficiency (.581 TS% to .577 TS%) with much better PER: 27.8 to 22.6!

My general impression throughout this project is people are a little too reliant at looking on TS% as some measurement of offensive efficiency/production in a vacuum, when context is quite important regarding efficiency. TS% is a good number to reference, but in a situation like this, it's important to note that 22 ppg on .585 TS% isn't necessarily better than a teammate who produces 22 ppg on .575% TS.

That may sound counterintuitive, but when one player (our less efficient shooter) dictates significantly more defensive attention and the other is the beneficiary with open shots, it will happen. And that doesn't mean the more efficient shooter was better on offense.

The thing is in 1998 Robinson was the one who dictates more defensive attention. He was clearly Spurs number one option on offense (and MUCH BETTER ON DEFENSE) - similar FGA to Duncan’s with much more FTA, what’s not surprising, because Duncan was a ROOKIE – something many people here seems not to remember... and that way some crazy things like 1998 Duncan over 1998 Robinson happens.

BTW, I checked Duncan’s numbers in 9 games when Robinson was out – his efficiency was lower. On the other hand in 1998 Robinson’s efficiency in games with Duncan was the same as before injury in 1996. So the point is: Robinson helped Duncan, but Duncan didn’t help Robinson.

Yes, that is what made me think of this within the context of teammates. Robinson was the No. 1 guy for most of that year on offense, at least as far as defenses were concerned. I didn't check those numbers, but they aren't surprising if you remember those games.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Robinson

I basically gave my reasons on these decisions before. I'll just share that I was debating how to rank Shaq all the way to the very end, specifically: Did Shaq do enough, play enough, to justify beating out one or both of the two towers. Played significantly less time, on a team that only had a better record than the Spurs because the Lakers played so well without him, and only got further in the playoffs than the Spurs because of that regular season record. In the end though, with the way Duncan & Robinson compromised to work together, and given how big Shaq's dominance was, I think his overall impact was pretty comparable to them, and I'm inclined to give the tie to the more outstanding player.

Honorable Mention:

Duncan - Funny to look back at Duncan as a rookie. Ever year or two we get a hyped rookie and people blow way out of proportion how good he is. We have had a rookie worthy of all-star status (roughly Top 25) since Duncan, who was right around Top 5. Really hammers in both how good he was, and what we're missing by having players join the NBA at such a young age.

Hill - A staple of the Top 10 in this era.

Miller - Again the best player on an elite team. Plays so smart, takes nothing off the table.

Mutombo - Squeaks into my Top 10 again.

Tim Bug - Not overly impressed with him in general, and this was part of the Heat's incredible run of playoff disappointment. He still is a star, and guys I thought played better than him just missed too much time (Barkley, Pippen).

[Doctor MJ]

JB's picks:

1997-1998

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP (30.8 PER in the Finals), Led in Playoff WS, was 2nd in playoff PER, 2nd in WS in the season and 4th in PER on the season. All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.

2. K.Malone - All NBA 1st Team And Defense, finished 2nd in MVP for the season and 1st in Win Shares

3. Shaq - Led the league in PER in the playoffs and season, led team to 61 wins, finished 4th in MVP voting

4. Gary Payton - All NBA 1st Team and Defense and led team to 61 wins and finished 5th in WS. Finished 3rd in MVP voting

5. D.Robinson - Finished 3rd in WS on the season and 3rd in PER, finished 7th in MVP voting


HM: Tim Duncan (5th in MVP voting), Grant Hill

[Doctor MJ]

sp6r's picks:

This post is written without any idea what arguments have been made, unlike 00 were people were posting arguments in general thread. So understand this post is sort of an island. I tried to anticipate arguments, but I apologize if I missed obvious ones.


1998
1. MJ: I am assuming he will be unanimous. I’m not sure how I feel about that because I feel there are better seasons than 98 that were not unanimous, but he is MJ.
2. Malone: I really considered Shaq here, but missed games, and the fact that Malone’s PS drop off wasn’t as pronounced as usual, gave him the edge.
3. Shaq: He should have been the no question best player between 98-01 and the majority pick for best player between 97 and 02, but because he was as lazy as crap it didn’t happen that way.
4. Payton: amazing effort by him keeping post-Kemp Sonics in contention. Bastillon has been souring me on Payton, with his typical strongly argues posts, but it is seasons like this that remind me why I was so high on the guy.
5. Duncan: no firm opinion

HM
Robinson, Tim Hardaway,

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

If you change your votes between now and when I post the results, please make clear how you changed them.

[Doctor MJ]

dude, hate to be the grammar police as it annoys me too - but it's dominant.

Duncan was so good that the verb "to dominate" recognized its own superfluousness and erased itself from English dictionaries. "to duncan" was the preferred term up until the point Shaq started calling himself the "Most Duncanate Ever" which, I don't have to tell you, was quite confusing.[/quote]

Dr. MJ - you're too smart for me dude, the joke flew over my head and I have no idea if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.[/quote]

That was a very polite way of letting me know the joke was a dud. Appreciate the courtesy Silver.

Not disagreeing with you, just having a little nerdy fun.

[Dr Positivity]

Did JordansBulls and sp6er get banned or something?

[Manuel Calavera]

My list:

1. Malone
2. Jordan
3. Shaq
4. Payton
5. Duncan

[Doctor MJ]

Did JordansBulls and sp6er get banned or something?

JB got suspended, sp6r's out of town.

Just while we're on the topic, I'm happy to post votes for a couple people who will be away for a week or so. If it goes beyond that, all bets are off.

EDIT: One thing I'll also make clear, JB's suspended for stuff that having nothing to do with this project. If someone gets suspended because of their behavior on this project, I'll probably permanently boot them, and even if I don't, I really doubt I'll be willing to put more work in to make they get their vote counted.

[Doctor MJ]

'97-98 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan   21   4   0   0   0 238   0.952
2. Karl Malone       4  20   1   0   0 185   0.740
3. Shaquille O'Neal  0   1  17   5   1 108   0.432
4. Gary Payton       0   0   6  12   4  70   0.280
5. David Robinson    0   0   1   5   9  29   0.116
6. Tim Duncan        0   0   0   3   9  18   0.072
7. Grant Hill        0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004
   Tim Hardaway      0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


[lorak]

Doctor MJ,
If I’m not mistaken two voters had Duncan and Robinson tied for 5th spot and you give Duncan and Robinson 0.5 point each, right? If so, I think it’s far better idea than what you done when last time we have tie (“first name gets the vote” – I guess that was the rule) and I hope it will be that way to the end of this great project

[Doctor MJ]

Doctor MJ,
If I’m not mistaken two voters had Duncan and Robinson tied for 5th spot and you give Duncan and Robinson 0.5 point each, right? If so, I think it’s far better idea than what you done when last time we have tie (“first name gets the vote” – I guess that was the rule) and I hope it will be that way to the end of this great project

Ah, well kinda. I'm basically ruling by 1) no partial votes, and 2) common sense. You can't split votes in the NBA MVP, and dealing with ties is just a pain in the ass for me, so I'm basically unsympathetic to people not being able to make up their minds (This project is about ranking players for quantitative use, it's what y'all signed up for, so just make a decision - it won't be the end of the world no matter what you decide). Hence the "first guy you mention gets the nod" rule (and if somebody starts posting "tie between the two towers" I may not count that vote at all).

That said, if I see two guys tie twice, I can give each one nod without getting any fractional votes, and it seems pretty clearly what both voters prefer, so no point in me being obstinate.

[Dr Positivity]

I would vote for outlawing ties period, after this. Make a stand!

[semi-sentient]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

No changes to the top 5, but Malone will be bumping off LeBron after the 96-97 voting is complete, more than likely.

[mysticbb]

'97-98 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Michael Jordan   21   4   0   0   0 238   0.952
2. Karl Malone       4  20   1   0   0 185   0.740
3. Shaquille O'Neal  0   1  17   5   1 108   0.432
4. Gary Payton       0   0   6  12   4  70   0.280
5. David Robinson    0   0   1   5   9  29   0.116
6. Tim Duncan        0   0   0   3   9  18   0.072
7. Grant Hill        0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004
   Tim Hardaway      0   0   0   0   1   1   0.004


Well, seems like there were 4 people out here who didn't watch the finals 1998. If it weren't for Malone's bad performances in 3 of those 6 games, I likely would have give it more thoughts. Malone was my MVP of the regular season, not Jordan, but Jordan was close enough to make up for that with a great playoff run.

[Gongxi]

No, I didn't watch it. I was only in my late teens, living in Chicago. Somehow I missed that series, though.