Retro POY '89-90 (Voting Complete)

[kaima]

I was talking about his defense in previous threads. For example in 1992, when he missed many games so it was clear how great was his defensive impact:

68 games with Robinson: Spurs 102.3 DRtg (that's better than all time great Knicks defense that season)
14 games without Robinson: Spurs 111.4 DRtg (and 119.6 in 3 playoff games)

Again, note how you won't directly answer my specific questions. That's what you've done in all the previous threads as well; see, I specifically asked the questions, then asked for direct responses. And yet, you go back to old reliable: dodge and obfuscate. Homeless shellgame.

This is the true pattern of your posting, and standards in these arguments.

Oh well, just take them as rhetorical questions. Which pretty much means that they're questions with answers both obvious and uncomfortable for you.

[An Unbiased Fan]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

[An Unbiased Fan]

I remember at the time believing that Magic was still better, that Jordan was more of a ball hog while Magic was making everybody better.

You are not the only one. This was the general perception back then. Game commentators would talk about it, and even we'd mock Jordan on the playground (in HS) by saying that we were going to be like him and put WD-40 on our elbows and shoot until the rust went away -- or something like that.

This is a very difficult comparison, because Magic always sacrificed his game to make everyone else better, while Jordan made the best of his abilities and put up monster numbers. Then again, he kind of had to.

Your argument was convincing though.

It's interesting how this chant dies with Jordan winning a title.

That it was over Magic may have added to it. Though, that people saw the battle as mano-a-mano, means that Jordan's mentality implicitly dominated the whole time; forget specified outcome.

There's a sense of vindication and, yet, irony in that team success for both becomes an issue of hype and personification.

Magic as the team, Jordan as beyond it.

Commentators attack those they see as vulnerable. When Jordan's vulnerability disappeared, the scavengers moved on to his rivals or imitators.

Which might be why Kobe can't shake the hatred. He's seen as both, and through that winning one -- or two, or three -- would never be enough. Team success won't be enough; it would have to be team success as a subservient expression of the dominant individual. Statistically a no-go.

Yet the whole time, the real hypocrisy is never noted: criticize the individual for being selfish, and yet this selfishness is defined by team failure. So often it is not considered that the team itself is the problem; no, that is because the explicit talk of selfishness is the implicit assumption that the team is always a direct statement as to that selfsame player's value.

I do see the parralels. In many ways I think Lebron is where MJ was pre-91'. He has great numbers, but it's playing 1 on 5, much like MJ did back in the days. What MJ did though in 91', is buy into what Phil was preaching, and became a great team player. Back in 90' he was still going out of the system a lot, and trying to take over by himself. The criticism was fair for the most part, and a big reason why MJ adapted.

[JordansBulls]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

This doesn't make sense. Jordan had better numbers then Magic all year long and got further than Magic in the playoffs and lost to the eventual champions while Magic had the best record in the league and lost in round 2 in 5 games to the Suns.

And you do realize that in Game 7 on the road, only Jordan showed up right?

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-sco ... game-7.php

It's not like MJ lost the series with the better record and HCA like Magic did that year.

[jicama]

Typical for great shotblocker. For example:

1987 Eaton

3.36 BPG away
4.75 BPG home

1990 Hakeem
3.49 BPG away
4.96 BPG home

These aren't typical, but rather extreme examples.
Were these guys really this much better at home?
Or were home scorekeepers giving them a lot more blocks than every other NBA scorekeeper?

Ben Wallace is another. This year, his "comeback" season, he averaged 1.77 in Detroit, and only 0.65 everywhere else.
It's no wonder there's a low correlation between success and (alleged) blocks.
And Ben decides to hang it up, because he's really no kind of shotblocker, except in Detroit, allegedly.

eWins scales a player's scoring and rebounding to opponent points and rebounds. A 10 Reb/36 guy for a team that outrebounds opponents 44-40 is better than a 10 Reb/36 guy whose team gets outrebounded by the same average.

Similarly, a 20 PPG scorer for a team that typically wins by 100-95 scores is a better scorer (all else being equal) than one for a team that loses by the same average score. In head to head games, the guy with the better team will tend to outscore the other.

Individual defense is much harder to pinpoint. A bit of consolation is gained by supposing a player without offensive skills would not be in the league at all without defensive chops. This gets him minutes on the floor, and he accumulates some measurable stats.

In the 1990 playoffs, Rodman was pretty good up to the Finals. He averaged 19.8 mpg in the 5 games, and for the whole playoffs (19 G) he went 29.5 .
That means that for the first 3 rounds, he was playing 34.4 mpg. His play dropped off enough vs Portland, his minutes were cut almost in half.

He was moody, he was streaky, and he especially wasn't that good in the later rounds of playoffs. This would be a feature of his whole career. Dropping behind Salley, Aguirre, and James Edwards in the rotation is not a positive indicator.

[Optimism Prime]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

This doesn't make sense. Jordan had better numbers then Magic all year long and got further than Magic in the playoffs and lost to the eventual champions while Magic had the best record in the league and lost in round 2 in 5 games to the Suns.

And you do realize that in Game 7 on the road, only Jordan showed up right?

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-sco ... game-7.php

It's not like MJ lost the series with the better record and HCA like Magic did that year.

And it's not like HCA is the be-all, end-all factor for the rest of us.

[JordansBulls]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

This doesn't make sense. Jordan had better numbers then Magic all year long and got further than Magic in the playoffs and lost to the eventual champions while Magic had the best record in the league and lost in round 2 in 5 games to the Suns.

And you do realize that in Game 7 on the road, only Jordan showed up right?

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-sco ... game-7.php

It's not like MJ lost the series with the better record and HCA like Magic did that year.

And it's not like HCA is the be-all, end-all factor for the rest of us.

Yeah but how is A #1 seed losing to a #5 seed a good thing?

[mysticbb]

I do see the parralels. In many ways I think Lebron is where MJ was pre-91'. He has great numbers, but it's playing 1 on 5, much like MJ did back in the days. What MJ did though in 91', is buy into what Phil was preaching, and became a great team player. Back in 90' he was still going out of the system a lot, and trying to take over by himself. The criticism was fair for the most part, and a big reason why MJ adapted.

I call bs on this one. Jordan didn't play different in 1990 than he played in 1991. The Bulls support was just more consistent in 1991 than it was in 1990, especially in the playoffs. If it weren't for the non-existent performance of Pippen, Grant, etc. in game 7 in Detroit, they could have won it all in 1990 already. Jordan beat the 76ers nearly by himself as Pippen was out with that ankle injury in game 4 of the confererence semi finals.

And drza, it is funny that you are complete ignoring the defensive end. Jordan was the far superior defender in comparison to Magic. Jackson even used Jordan as a defender againt Barkley in that series against the 76ers. That should tell you how good Jordan was on the defensive end. I don't see any evidence which would lead me to the believe that Magic Johnson impacted the game more than Jordan did.

Looks to me as some people here just trying to find a reason to not put Jordan at number 1. They ignoring the fact that the Bulls went further in the playoffs while beating a team 3 times in the eastern conference finals which swept the Lakers a year before. The Pistons lost overall 7 games in the 1989 and 1990 playoffs, 5 of those losses came against the Bulls, 3 times Jordan had to score 42+ points to give the Bulls the win. The Bulls support just wasn't ready at this time. Calling Jordan a ballhog while his teammates aren't capable of winning games by themself is somewhat weird.
Jordan usually didn't demand a lot of shots in the first quarter or first half, but took over when for the Bulls support didn't get anything going. Jordan averaged 6.4 apg (regular season and playoffs) while playing in a TPO. Every Laker fan should know how difficult this is when the player is also asked to carry to main scoring load.

Start of the complete game 2 vs. the Bucks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKINovHcwzM

Game 2 vs. the 76ers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUFMrdGQ_k8
Game 4 vs. the 76ers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pMxyP6UcY

Game 3 vs. Piston:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVmCCKNgPlc
Game 4 vs. the Pistons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfqpsYiFps

[An Unbiased Fan]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

This doesn't make sense. Jordan had better numbers then Magic all year long and got further than Magic in the playoffs and lost to the eventual champions while Magic had the best record in the league and lost in round 2 in 5 games to the Suns.

And you do realize that in Game 7 on the road, only Jordan showed up right?

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-sco ... game-7.php

It's not like MJ lost the series with the better record and HCA like Magic did that year.

Both had outstanding numbers, but Magic's was a great Individual & team player, while MJ was a great individual player at this stage. Not to say he was a bad team player by any stretch, just not on the level of Magic when it came to running the system, setting guys up, controlling tempo & flow, etc.

Losing with HCA definitely made this an extremely tough choice, but even still, I give Magic a very slight edge. That LA squad wasn't built for the PS and had a glaring hole in the middle which was exploited by PHX. One more playoff series win doesn't put MJ at my #1, because both played great in the PS, and I have Magic ahead in the RS.

[sp6r=underrated]

Time to vote.

1. Jordan: I thought strongly about the other two here as well. In the end, I think this should be the consensus pick.
2. Magic: I look at the 90 lakers roster and I don't see how they did so well. I think Magic deserves a lot of credit, which he normally doesn't fully receive, for how much he helped Worthy. I don't think Worthy makes the HOF w/o Magic.
3. Barkley: I think you can argue him number 1. The top 3 this year were extremely close.

- -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Ewing: This was his best offensive season. I don't think he had the defensive impact that others think he did. He crushed Boston in the 1st round.
5. Robinson: He did play poorly in that game 7, but overall he had a very good post-season. I'm also going to throw this out there. Robinson's overall PS stats from 90-96

Code: Select all

MPG,  PPG,  RPG,  APG, BPG, SPG, TS%,
39.3, 24.0, 11.8, 2.9, 3.1, 1.3, .557,

Robinson's critics have made a great case against him. Indeed they convinced me to go against my pre-season vote. Still, I wonder how many players could survive the scrutiny Robinson was put under.

I understand some are voting for Hakeem over Robinson this year. Robinson takes a lot of criticism, deservedly, for his PS swan in comparison with the other great bigs and especially Hakeem. Hakeem should get criticism in comparison with Robinson for not being the RS player DR was.

Normally, PS play deservedly trumps RS. This season it shouldn't. Robinson's dominant RS play is why the Spurs were able to play an easy first round team. If Hakeem played as well in the RS his team wouldn't have to face the 1st seed. RS play does matter, beyond the RS, it also helps position your team for an easier road in the PS. That should be considered.

HM: Malone, Hakeem, Stockton

As an aside, I hope people are considering when they look at these individual numbers and compare them to current or especially players from roughly 94-04, that the game had more possessions in this time period and this was the most offensive dominated era outside the last 2 seasons. This year Suns would have ranked 23rd in pace. I say this because I have notice quite a few comments were people are just staring these numbers and acting like the 8th best player would have been POY in other season.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I do see the parralels. In many ways I think Lebron is where MJ was pre-91'. He has great numbers, but it's playing 1 on 5, much like MJ did back in the days. What MJ did though in 91', is buy into what Phil was preaching, and became a great team player. Back in 90' he was still going out of the system a lot, and trying to take over by himself. The criticism was fair for the most part, and a big reason why MJ adapted.

I call bs on this one. Jordan didn't play different in 1990 than he played in 1991. The Bulls support was just more consistent in 1991 than it was in 1990, especially in the playoffs. If it weren't for the non-existent performance of Pippen, Grant, etc. in game 7 in Detroit, they could have won it all in 1990 already. Jordan beat the 76ers nearly by himself as Pippen was out with that ankle injury in game 4 of the confererence semi finals.

No, MJ was a MUCH better team player in 91'. His whole mindset on the court was different. These are things that translate onto the court, but aren't necessarily reflected on the stat sheet. MJ played his role in the Tri much more efficiently, and stayed within the system more. This had a huge impact on his teammates, the system, and their effiiciency and production.

MJ the indivudal player was pretty much the same, but MJ the leader was vastly improved.

Looks to me as some people here just trying to find a reason to not put Jordan at number 1. They ignoring the fact that the Bulls went further in the playoffs while beating a team 3 times in the eastern conference finals which swept the Lakers a year before. The Pistons lost overall 7 games in the 1989 and 1990 playoffs, 5 of those losses came against the Bulls, 3 times Jordan had to score 42+ points to give the Bulls the win. The Bulls support just wasn't ready at this time. Calling Jordan a ballhog while his teammates aren't capable of winning games by themself is somewhat weird.
Jordan usually didn't demand a lot of shots in the first quarter or first half, but took over when for the Bulls support didn't get anything going. Jordan averaged 6.4 apg (regular season and playoffs) while playing in a TPO. Every Laker fan should know how difficult this is when the player is also asked to carry to main scoring load.

Comparing the 90' Bulls losing in 7 games, to the 89' squad that got swept is wrong-headed thinking. That 89' LA squad swept it's way to the Finals, and then had injuries which sunk their chances. Apples & Oranges, my friend. It's like saying that Artest outperformed Lebron last year in the PS, because he took the 09' champs to 7 games without Yao for half the series. Series are heavily dependent on matchups and health.

[lorak]

I was talking about his defense in previous threads. For example in 1992, when he missed many games so it was clear how great was his defensive impact:

68 games with Robinson: Spurs 102.3 DRtg (that's better than all time great Knicks defense that season)
14 games without Robinson: Spurs 111.4 DRtg (and 119.6 in 3 playoff games)

Again, note how you won't directly answer my specific questions.

That's the direct answer (well, part of it, I just think it’s pointless to repeat everything because you will ignore it as always) and it's not my fault that you don't understand what statistic is, why small samples aren't too important etc. And that’s why you only focusing on several playoff series, or even only on particular matchups and ignores everything else. Constitution gives you the right to opinions like this, but that doesn’t change the fact that’s the wrong thing to do from science’s point of view.

BTW, Robinson was recognized as one of the best defenders from day one – coaches or journalist agree on that (DPOY and All D Teams votes, even every possible defensive stats confirms that), season after season. But Kaima knows better than coaches or objective data.

[lorak]

Typical for great shotblocker. For example:

1987 Eaton

3.36 BPG away
4.75 BPG home

1990 Hakeem
3.49 BPG away
4.96 BPG home

These aren't typical, but rather extreme examples.
Were these guys really this much better at home?
Or were home scorekeepers giving them a lot more blocks than every other NBA scorekeeper?

I think it has a lot to do with the way games are officiated. Maybe some calls which would be fouls if player A plays away aren’t fouls when he plays home?

BTW, I checked several players career wise:
Hakeem
3.25 home
2.96 away

Eaton
3.45 home
2.41 away

Robinson
3.36 home
2.62 away

Mutombo
2.91 home
2.59 away

Ben Wallace
2.35 home
1.82 away

Mourning
2.92 home
2.70 away

Bol
3.29 home
2.93 away

Camby
2.83 home
2.32 away

[mysticbb]

No, MJ was a MUCH better team player in 91'. His whole mindset on the court was different. These are things that translate onto the court, but aren't necessarily reflected on the stat sheet. MJ played his role in the Tri much more efficiently, and stayed within the system more. This had a huge impact on his teammates, the system, and their effiiciency and production.

That is bs, seriously, I know everything about the Bulls, especially from that era and Jordan played as much in the system as he played one year later. The difference was the support who became better. Pippen improved massively in terms of playmaking and ball handling, he also improved scoring-wise. Grant became better as a rebounder and was better in setting screens and using it. Jordan did as much as he did one year later, with better teammates who played more consistently it translated into more wins and the championship. Watch those games and you will realise that these are the reasons.

MJ the indivudal player was pretty much the same, but MJ the leader was vastly improved.

Jordan led his team in nearly the same fashion in 1990 as he did in 1991. As I said the difference were his teammates, who were able to shoulder more load in 1991 than they did in 1990. Not surprisingly at all.

Comparing the 90' Bulls losing in 7 games, to the 89' squad that got swept is wrong-headed thinking. That 89' LA squad swept it's way to the Finals, and then had injuries which sunk their chances. Apples & Oranges, my friend. It's like saying that Artest outperformed Lebron last year in the PS, because he took the 09' champs to 7 games without Yao for half the series. Series are heavily dependent on matchups and health.

I compared the 1989 Bulls too, because those Bulls in the playoffs were closer to beat the Pistons than any other team in the league.
And your argumenation is complete nonsense. Everyone had to deal with injuries, as I pointed out, the Bulls missed Pippen for that game 4 against the 76ers. Jordan was still able to led his team to the victory. That is what best players in the league are doing, winning games for their teams even though the 2nd best player is out.
The Lakers in 1989 also lost both games in the regular season to the Pistons. In fact in those two years the Lakers lost all of their home games against the Pistons and won only one game. 1-7 over a two year span while Jordan proved in the playoffs that he can led the Bulls to wins against the Pistons even though the whole defensive concept of the Pistons in those games were to stop Jordan. Ever heart of the Jordan rules? There were no "Magic rules", and that was for a reason. The Pistons, the two time champion, were afraid of Jordan way more than they were afraid of Magic. And in the end Jordan showed everyone in the games that he can still find a way to beat them.

Jordan was in 1990 by far the best player on the Bulls. Not taking games over when his team is down would be called "quitting" today. Jordan's PER was 31.2, Horace Grant had 16.6 as the 2nd best guy. Pippen had the same usage in 1990 as he had in 1991, Grant even had a bit less touches in 1991. Seriously, saying Jordan improved as a team player is completely ignoring the facts here.

[Sedale Threatt]

Putting almost no effort into this at the moment. Totally wrapped up in the Finals.

1. Mike
2. Magic
3. Sir Charles
4. Chewing
5. The Admiral

[An Unbiased Fan]

No, MJ was a MUCH better team player in 91'. His whole mindset on the court was different. These are things that translate onto the court, but aren't necessarily reflected on the stat sheet. MJ played his role in the Tri much more efficiently, and stayed within the system more. This had a huge impact on his teammates, the system, and their effiiciency and production.

That is bs, seriously, I know everything about the Bulls, especially from that era and Jordan played as much in the system as he played one year later. The difference was the support who became better. Pippen improved massively in terms of playmaking and ball handling, he also improved scoring-wise. Grant became better as a rebounder and was better in setting screens and using it. Jordan did as much as he did one year later, with better teammates who played more consistently it translated into more wins and the championship. Watch those games and you will realise that these are the reasons.

No, he really didn't. In fact, you referenced Pippen's improvement in regard as a playmaker, which was a direct result of MJ allowing him to be the facilitator and playing more off the ball. MJ played within the Tri much more efficienctly, and had his teamates doing the same in 91'. Playing within the system, allowed his teammates to maximize their abilities.

Conversely, this very thing is what Magic was perhaps the best ever at. In 90', these differences are there for all to see. In 91', we see the maturation of MJ, and the passing of the torch.

Jordan led his team in nearly the same fashion in 1990 as he did in 1991. As I said the difference were his teammates, who were able to shoulder more load in 1991 than they did in 1990. Not surprisingly at all.

Or perhaps MJ allowed them to shoulder more of the load in 91', as opposed to going 1 on 5.

I compared the 1989 Bulls too, because those Bulls in the playoffs were closer to beat the Pistons than any other team in the league.
And your argumenation is complete nonsense. Everyone had to deal with injuries, as I pointed out, the Bulls missed Pippen for that game 4 against the 76ers. Jordan was still able to led his team to the victory. That is what best players in the league are doing, winning games for their teams even though the 2nd best player is out.
The Lakers in 1989 also lost both games in the regular season to the Pistons. In fact in those two years the Lakers lost all of their home games against the Pistons and won only one game. 1-7 over a two year span while Jordan proved in the playoffs that he can led the Bulls to wins against the Pistons even though the whole defensive concept of the Pistons in those games were to stop Jordan. Ever heart of the Jordan rules? There were no "Magic rules", and that was for a reason. The Pistons, the two time champion, were afraid of Jordan way more than they were afraid of Magic. And in the end Jordan showed everyone in the games that he can still find a way to beat them.

Jordan was in 1990 by far the best player on the Bulls. Not taking games over when his team is down would be called "quitting" today. Jordan's PER was 31.2, Horace Grant had 16.6 as the 2nd best guy. Pippen had the same usage in 1990 as he had in 1991, Grant even had a bit less touches in 1991. Seriously, saying Jordan improved as a team player is completely ignoring the facts here.

I'm not even sure why we're bringing up earlier years when this is about 89-90', but LA DID beat Detroit in 88', which is more than what Chicago did over that 3 year period. In 89' they were rolling along till injuries took over. In 90' they didn't even meet in the PS, so who knows how matchups would have gone.

Also, look at Pippen's assists & assist pct. numbers. You'll see an increase in 91', which reflects his larger role as a facilitator for Chicago.

Pippen:
90' - 5.4 apg / 19.8%
91' - 6.2 apg / 23.5%

MJ:
90' - 6.3 apg / 28.6%
91' - 5.5 apg / 25.2%

This is just one aspect of how the Bulls shifted from a ball-dominant system, to what Phil wanted the Tri to be. MJ's maturation was critical, and the results speak for themselves. Basketball is a team game, and how an individual influences his team, not just himself, is huge.

[ElGee]

My 1990 POY Ballot:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Charles Barkley
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Karl Malone

I'm with Sedale. Hopefully can give the next few years more attention when the Finals end...

[JordansBulls]

In 1990 here were MJ's numbers the 1st two series.

vs. Philly, 1990: 43 pts/7 reb/7 ast/52% FG
vs. Milwaukee, 1990: 37 pts/8 reb/7 ast/53% FG

[mysticbb]

No, he really didn't. In fact, you referenced Pippen's improvement in regard as a playmaker, which was a direct result of MJ allowing him to be the facilitator and playing more off the ball.

Wtf? That is complete bs, seriously, Pippen just became a better ball handler, his passing abilities improved, that had nothing to do with Jordan allowed him more. Allowing the 1990 Pippen more in that offense would have meant losing more games.

In 90', these differences are there for all to see.

I most certainly didn't see any difference at all. Watch the 1990's playoff games and those in 1991, there is no difference in the way Jordan played, but you can see that Pippen became better in 1991, that Grant played better in 1991 and so on. The open shots Pippen and Grant missed in that game 7 in 1990 against the Pistons were shots they made in 1991. That is the difference here.

In 90' they didn't even meet in the PS, so who knows how matchups would have gone.

Yes, because the Lakers lost in the 2nd round despite the fact that they had HCA in that series.

Also, look at Pippen's assists & assist pct. numbers. You'll see an increase in 91', which reflects his larger role as a facilitator for Chicago.

Lol, that is your proof? Seriously, look up the turnover numbers for Pippen and you might realise where difference in those numbers came from. If Pippen wouldn't have thrown so many passes away in 1990, he could have had a similar amount of assists as he had one year later.

This is just one aspect of how the Bulls shifted from a ball-dominant system, to what Phil wanted the Tri to be. MJ's maturation was critical, and the results speak for themselves. Basketball is a team game, and how an individual influences his team, not just himself, is huge.

You are making stuff up here, because that is completely not what happened. Jordan even played MORE ball dominant in the 1991 finals than he did in 1990.
The result is perfectly explained by the improvement of the team around Jordan. Heck, even Phil Jackson became better as a coach in terms of adjustments. Give the 1990 Bulls the 1991 Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen and that teams wins the championship.

And it is funny that we are just talking about the offensive impact of Magic and Jordan in 1990, but completely ignoring the differences on the defensive end.

[ElGee]

#1 Magic - REALLY tough choice, but I have to give Magic the edge. He was still the best floor leader in the game. His versatility was ridiculous, and he had to use every bit of it to get LA to 63 wins.

22/12/7 - RS
25/13/6 - PS

In comaprison to MJ, Magic was the superior leader at this stage of their careers. He was the regular season MVP, All-NBA, and still the better skilled player. Indivudually, both were stellar, but Magic was a much better team player at this point. He was perhaps the best ever at setting guys up in the postion to score.

#2 Air Jordan - Great year for MJ. All-NBA/All-D 1st, took the Pistons to 7 games in the ECF. Tremendous individual player, I think losing this year is what spurred him to expand his game and become a great team player. He still was too much 1 on 5 at this point, and not the floor general he later became. If the Bulls make the FInals, he would likely have been #1.

34/7/6 - RS
37/7/7 - PS

#3 Barkley - 60% FG / 66% TS

#4 Ewing

#5 Malone

Sounds like an argument for Nash over Kobe in 2006.