Retro POY '63-64 (voting complete)

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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#81 » by ElGee » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:39 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:What's amazing is, I hated Heat the first time I saw it. I don't know why, because now it's one of my top 20. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. I like Mann films in general, although I have to say Public Enemies was fairly boring.


I can relate a little -- a lot of films in my top 100 really get better upon repeated viewings. Although I don't think I've ever "hated" one at first.

I really like Mann the artist. Heat and The Insider are just ridiculously good. Last of the Mohicans is good. Enjoyed Miami Vice a lot. I do think Mann the story teller struggles sometimes, and I can relate to that. A lot of his movies struggle with an ending IMO. For instance, I hated the way Collateral ended. It seemed to almost abandon most of what he was saying throughout the film. Although I suppose that's why No Country For Old Men is what it is and other films have studio-driven endings for a $.

Yes, you know what's next...The Retro MOY Project! ;) Anyway, back to basketball...
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#82 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:43 pm

Yes, but before that, I caught "Manhunter" the other day and thought it was surprisingly good. The first film appearance of Hannibal Lecter, directed by Michael Mann no less. Very underrated. I keep meaning to see "The Keep" but never get around to it.
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#83 » by fatal9 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:53 pm

Didn't see it posted in this thread so might as well...

'64 finals Celtics vs. Warriors game 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZMw_B8srw

Wilt had 27 pts, 38 rebounds. Russell 8 pts, 19 rebounds.

I watched this a while ago, haven't revisited it since. Russell's teammates were clearly better from what I remember (but Guy Rogers brought the Warriors back iirc), Celtics also did a really good job denying the ball and a lot of Wilt's offense ended up coming from offensive rebounds as a result. One thing that was noticeable from watching this game and the '67 game was that Wilt was much much better defensively in the '67 game (look at 3:15 at part 1 for example).

Nice layup by Havlicek here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4t_HI2tWsY&#t=5m37s
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#84 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:28 pm

Great. Hannum's look said it all -- WTF?!?
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#85 » by ronnymac2 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:30 pm

Final Rankings:

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Bob Pettit

HM: Elgin Baylor


Collateral is the GOAT. '

Great thread. Wilt did enough to get number one imo. Russell was staggering this year. Oscar usually gets number one in a strong year, but this year was **** crazy. West has his teams up there offensively and always performs in the playoffs. The GOAT PF pre-1980 has arrived.
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#86 » by bastillon » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:41 pm

1.Russell:
much more dominant defensively than Oscar offensively, easily won against the Royals in the playoffs. just coming off threepeat MVP and like 5 champs. the most dominant defense ever ? I was debating whether to put Oscar #1, but in the end 1-4 was just too much.

2.Oscar:
clearly better in RS - 3 times as many MVP votes as Wilt, great playoffs (29/9/8.5 on playoff high 57% TS). same result against the Celtics as Wilt's Warriors. I also believe Oscar's supporting cast was overrated and didn't fit at all with him. no shotblocking and interior defense damned their chanced on any level. their offensive efficiency and boxscore stats depend highly upon Oscar's creating skills.

3.Wilt:
great RS but not as good as Oscar's. then dominated in the playoffs until the finals where his numbers went down significantly (like 10 PPG down ?) and his team did fairly poorly against the Celtics. Nate Thurmond playing 34 MPG in the playoffs is exactly what Oscar needed to contend on a regular basis. I'm still curious about Wilt's impact this season - my hypothesis about getting rid of 'negative value' players could still come true.

to me Wilt's clearly worse in the RS and comparable in the playoffs to Oscar. that puts Oscar above him.

big gap...

West... great stats and he had history of high +/-. Baylor sucked in the playoffs that year. I'm giving him comofrtable #4.

Pettit... btw. Regular and LG, what was his +/- in 65 ? (played 50 games) incredibly valuable piece of info to me. his supporting cast seemed ridiculously great at first. still... no strong candidates for this place anyway. he's #5.

1.Russ
2.Oscar
3.Wilt
4.West
5.Pettit

could you also check West's +/- this year ?
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#87 » by Sedale Threatt » Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:03 pm

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Oscar
4. West
5. Pettit
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#88 » by TrueLAfan » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:24 am

Interesting thoughts about Mann ... I agree that he's not so strong as a story teller. But visually--man, he's got it going on. I thought Collateral was a good movie, but it looked fantastic. Same with Last of the Mohicans. That's a movie that essentially has the plot of a teen comedy ("Stuck up girl meets hunky local guy that fights off nebbish locals and overcomes long odds and obstacles to win her heart!")...but it's so visually striking that you kinda forget that there's not a lot in the story department. To me, Ridley Scott's movies are kind of similar in that regard.
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#89 » by fatal9 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:49 am

1. Wilt - Great RS and good playoff run. He was huge in the Hawks series, stepped up at all the right times. When the series was tied 2-2, he had 50 pts in the pivotal game 5. In the game 7 he had 39 pts, 26 rebs, 12 blks (many of which led to a 14-0 run that put the Hawks away).
2. Oscar - Maybe the best RS player, and solid playoff numbers. Had a big 36 pt, 18 assist game to close out the Sixers in the do or die game. Hard to spot shooting logs though.
3. Russell - Having trouble overlooking the numbers. 13.1 ppg on 35.6% in the playoffs. Didn't really stop Wilt at all in the series, Wilt averaged 29/28/? on 57% to Russell's 11/25/? on presumably sub 40% shooting, and from the footage (albeit only one half), I did not feel Russell was in any way a better player than Wilt, his team was better. Still I'll put him at 3 because of the great defensive impact as always. The winning team doesn't always need to have the best player in the league.
4. West
5. Pettit

Same with Last of the Mohicans.

Awesome in the last 15 minutes.
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#90 » by shawngoat23 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:04 am

bastillon wrote:
Darkjaws wrote:Oh, let me add a little tidbit about Nate Thurmond many of you don't seem to know about. It's been something that's been bugging me for a while so I'll state it here: Nate was only 6'11 or so, but with his arms stretched up he was actually taller than Wilt with his arms stretched up....and Wilt had something like a 74-76 inch wingspan. That means Thurmond had one long ass wingspan....which of course explains why he was such an impactful defensive player against Kareem, Wilt, and others.


source ? footage of Thurmond shows he's more like 6'10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU0S2eba31A 2:27

he'd have to have some long ass arms...


DJ is right, Wilt did say Thurmond had longer arms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BDd7jM4zYs#t=44s
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#91 » by shawngoat23 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:16 am

It seems like there's pretty much a consensus this year, although I've swapped #4 and #5:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Bob Pettit
5. Jerry West

Any of the top 3 have a strong case for #1. Pettit and West are also neck-to-neck, but with Pettit was clearly the #1 guy on a team that won the head-to-head matchup in the playoffs, and he had better regular season stats, played more games, and finished higher in MVP voting. Even though I like Jerry West a lot, I think Pettit gets a slight edge here (despite the Logo going off in the playoffs as usual).
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#92 » by lorak » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:39 am

1. Oscar
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. West
5. Pettit
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#93 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:47 am

drza wrote:
mopper8 wrote:I have found multiple times recently that when I'm curious about a player or reading a back-and-forth on this board about how players matchup and what not, that I go the RPOY thread and click on a few years during these guys' primes and read the threads for some insight into how they played and whatnot.

So, please, TheRegul8r, post! Even if it doesn't end up influencing votes, it's valuable for future use.


I agree entirely. And at the end of the day, I think that's actually where this project will have the most utility. The voting is cool, and it'll be nice to see how the final votes talley out, but more than anything I think this place will be an invaluable source of information. I know it's already been huge for me in that vein. So by all means, Regul8tor, in the words of Al Pacino in Heat..."GIVE ME ALL YOU GOT! GIVE ME ALL YOU GOT!!!!" :D


Alright then, if you insist. And there's something about this season which I'd wager most people don't know, which also puts it into perspective:

Bill Russell averaged a career-best 24.7 rebounds per game—winning the NBA rebounding title by 2.4 per game over Wilt Chamberlain, scored 15.0 points and passed for 4.7 assists (7th in the league) in 44.6 minutes per game (3rd in the league behind Chamberlain [3,689/80 (46.1 mpg)] and Oscar Robertson [3,559/79 (45.1 mpg)]), led the league with a record 16.0 defensive win shares—the highest ever recorded, finished third in win shares with a career-best 17.3 (behind Wilt Chamberlain [25.0] and Oscar Robertson [20.6]), and finished third in the MVP voting behind Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain, after winning three consecutive MVP awards.

This was the Celtics’ first season without Bob Cousy, who retired. Celtics' coach Red Auerbach said, “I think it was about my best coaching job. We were able to make a complete reversal of style from being the best offensive team in the game to be best defensive team.” In an article for Sports Illustrated in 1969, Russell said, “I think our 1963-64 team was the best [Sanders, K. C. Jones, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sam Jones, Havlicek, Russell]. It was easily the best defensive team we ever had—maybe that’s why it’s my favorite—and maybe the best of all time. I rate it best despite the fact that it was only good offensively, not great. Maybe that's the key to it. We knew our offensive shortcomings and we worked hard to overcome them.” Russell wrote in Second Wind that he considered 1964 his best year (p. 154).

Russell led the NBA with 21 games of 30 or more rebounds. Russell had the second-highest rebounding game of the season, Jerry Lucas with the NBA season high of 40 rebounds Feb. 29, 1964. Chamberlain was the only other player to appear on the top ten, once.

1963-64 REBOUNDING HIGHS

40 — Jerry Lucas, Cincinnati at Philadelphia, February 29, 1964
36 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. Philadelphia, March 3, 1964
34 — Bill Russell, Boston at St. Louis, November 9, 1963
34 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. Baltimore, February 6, 1964
33 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. Philadelphia, November 1, 1963
33 — Bill Russell, Boston at Cincinnati, November 2, 1963
33 — Bill Russell, Boston at New York, February 8, 1964
33 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. San Francisco, February 15, 1964
32 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. San Francisco, November 30, 1963

32 — Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco vs. Boston, January 7, 1964
32 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. Cincinnati, January 10, 1964
32 — Bill Russell, Boston vs. Detroit, March 8, 1964


Chamberlain was second to Russell in 30 or more rebound games, with four.

In March it came out that

BOSTON (AP) — Boston Celtics’ ace Bill Russell has been close to a nervous breakdown all season while guiding the team to its eighth straight division title in the National Basketball Association, the Boston Record American reported Friday night.

The exclusive story written by Bill McSweeney says a combination of severe pain, fear and sensitivity have had Russell near collapse.

McSweeney reports the great center has averaged only two hours of sleep a night during the season—none on game nights—and has been in a state of deep depression.

“Fighting off a crippling injury, plagued by personal problems, he never was certain from one day to the next if he would be able to finish the regular season—or even if he would live through it,” McSweeney wrote.

“Don’t you dare write it. It’s my problem. It would sound too much like an alibi.”

Russell revealed early in the campaign he has been playing on arthritic knees since he came into the NBA.

He has played despite advice that he may be ruining himself and may never be able to play again and the ensuing pain has nagged him on a 24-hour-a day basis,” McSweeney wrote.


Eastern Division Finals – Boston Celtics (59-21) vs. Cincinnati Royals (55-25): The Cincinnati Royals beat Boston 7-5 in the regular season, the fourth time any team had won a season series against them since the Celtics started their title run—the 1962-63 Lakers were 5-4 against the Celtics but lost in six in the NBA Finals, the 1958-59 St. Louis Hawks were 5-4, and the 1956-57 Philadelphia Warriors were 7-5.

BOSTON (AP) Bob Cousy—the little man who won’t be there—picks the Celtics to beat Cincinnati in five or six games.

Their best-of-seven Eastern Division championship in the National Basketball Association playoffs opens tonight at Boston Garden.

Cousy retired a year ago after being the playmaker behind seven straight Celtic Eastern crowns and six world titles in seven seasons.

“I’m not exactly what you’d call an impartial witness,” said Cousy. “But my personal feeling is that Boston is going to have less trouble with Cincinnati this year than it did last season.

“I like the Celtics in five games—six at the most. And I haven’t forgotten that the Royals made us go the full distance against them a year ago.”

Cousy, now Boston College coach, and former Celtic draft choice Jim Hadnot have been practicing with the Celtics this past week.

“I don’t want to take anything away from Cincinnati,” Cousy continued. “But it was a psychological thing with the Celtics last year. We were all geared mentally to meet Syracuse. When the Royals upset Syracuse, we just couldn’t seem to take Cincy seriously.

“Even after Cincinnati took a 2-1 lead in the series, beating us twice on our home court, we still couldn’t get excited.

Bill Russell is the key to the whole thing. If he has a great series, the Celtics could beat Cincinnati in five. If he’s just good, it’s going to take Boston a little longer.”
(Tuscaloosa News, March 31, 1964)


Boston won Game 1 103-87, led by Russell, who scored 18 points, grabbed 31 rebounds, passed for two assists and blocked “nearly a dozen shots” (Park City Daily News, Mar. 29, 1964) in 46 minutes (The Bulletin, Apr. 1, 1964). “The Royals failed to score a field goal in the first five minutes of the game because Russell blocked their only chances successively by Jack Twyman, Embry and Robertson” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 1, 1964).

“That Russell is fantastic,” Auerbach said. “When he plays like that any opponent is in trouble. He sure dominated this game.”

Boston was trailing 31-28 in the second period when Russell dramatically changed the complexion of the game.

In a sudden flurry, he set up three baskets including a blind pass for a Willie Naulls layup, scored three points, lunged high off the court to intercept a long pass and blocked a sure layup by league’s most valuable player Oscar Robertson.

The Celtics outscored Cincinnati 15-3 in the flurry and led 49-50 at halftime.
(St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 1, 1964)


Sam Jones led Boston with a game-high 27 points—20 in the second half, and Tom Heinsohn had 20. Wayne Embry led Cincinnati with 21 points in 28 minutes, and Oscar Roberson was held to 20, kept with a basket for the first 11 minutes of the game. He also had seven rebounds and three assists in 44 minutes. “We did a good job on Robertson,” Auerbach said. “I can’t use enough superlatives about him and his 20 points have to be the lowest against us all year” (Kentucky New-Era, Apr. 1, 1964). Jerry Lucas had seven points and 11 rebounds in 45 minutes.

BOSTON (AP) — The Boston Celtics’ playoff strategy for Thursday night is pretty simple. It’s a refined version of that antique kids’ game, keep away, with Cincinnati’s Oscar Robertson the intended victim.

At stake: A commanding 2-0 lead in the best-of-seven Eastern Division finals of the National Basketball Association playoffs.

“We can win,” says Royals’ Coach Jack McMahon with the qualification ace rebounder Jerry Lucas must improve. “If we do, we’ll be in good position. I’d like to think we got a lot of bad basketball out of our system in the 103-87 loss Tuesday.”

But if the Celtics prevail again, Cincinnati would face an uphill fight in a seven-game set. The only time in NBA playoff history when a team was down 0-2 and successfully rallied was when Fort Wayne overcame St. Louis in a five-game Western Division series in 1956.

No Overconfidence

Boston Coach Red Auerbach says there’s no danger of overconfidence on his team. “No one has more respect for the Royals than I do,” Red said. “Every game we have with them from now on is going to be tougher than the previous one.”

Robertson, league MVP and second highest scorer, was held to 20 points and six field goals Tuesday. He had been averaging 33.8 points and 12 field goals per game against the Celtics.

Although his right, or shooting, wrist felt like it might be broken Tuesday, Robertson has learned it is a tendon pull.

“Our strategy is to try to keep the ball away from Oscar Robertson,” says Celtic K.C. Jones, who alternates with John Havlicek and Sam Jones in the biggest defensive chore anywhere. “We must play between Robertson and the ball at all times. Then his teammates must either pass to someone else or gamble on a high pass to try to get it to him.

“Oscar’s favorite play is to bring the ball right down court, pick up a screen and shoot. We can hamper this. Then it’s up to the man being screened to break through and pick him up. Satch Sanders is particularly good at it.”

Bill Russell is still the key,” says Auerbach, recounting his decisive performance in the first game. “He always comes through under pressure and there’s plenty of that.”

The hamstring muscle pull on Boston co-capt. Frank Ramsey’s right leg is getting plenty of attention but trainer Buddy LeRoux says he’ll be considerably less than full speed for several weeks.

Ramsey, 32, who has announced his retirement effective next month, hurt the leg in an Easter Sunday drill and aggravated the condition early in Tuesday’s game. It is the same injury which crippled him seriously during the playoffs two years ago.

“It isn’t as bad as that one,” LeRoux said, “but all hamstrings are trouble.”

Ramsey is taking twice-a-day two-hour treatments.

Ramsey Worried

“The leg feels dead,” Ramsey admitted yesterday. “The worst part is that it hurts every time I lift it.”

“The injury has me worried,” Auerbach says. “Of all the times to get Frank injured, this is the worst. He’s the money player a team needs in a tight series like this.”


Boston won Game 2 101-90 to take a 2-0 lead. Tom Heinsohn, weakened from a virus, led Boston with 31, Sam Jones had 25, and Bill Russell grabbed 28 rebounds. The Celtics defense held Robertson to 11 points and three field goals in the first half (The Palm Beach Post, April 3, 1964). Robertson finished with 30, “but it was just a little too late for Cincinnati” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 3, 1964). “We just laid down,” said Royals coach Jack McMahon. “If we get this kind of performance, I don’t expect we’ll win again. The Celtics will sweep us in four” (Eugene Register-Guard, Apr. 2, 1964). Jack Twyman had 27. Jerry Lucas was held to three free throws and seven rebounds, fouling out with 4½ minutes left to play. “I never before played a game in my life in which I didn’t score at least one basket,” Lucas said. “Statistics showed that over the first three periods Boston out-scored the Royals by 23 points during the times that Lucas was on the floor” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 3, 1964).

Boston won Game 3 102-92, Russell with 22 points and 28 rebounds, leading “a second-quarter rally that left Cincinnati 18 points behind at intermission” (The Owosso Argus-Press, April 1, 1964). Russell “received brilliant support from K.C. Jones and Tom Sanders. Sanders held high-scoring Jack Twyman to one field goal on 10 tries in the first half by which the Celtics had a 55-37 lead. Jones was the digger, who forced the Royals into mistakes of which Russell was seemingly always on hand to take advantage” (Beaver County Times, Apr. 6, 1964). Boston broke the game open in the second quarter after leading 25-21 after one. Cincinnati shot 11-for-51 in the first half (21.6%), and shot 33 percent (34-for-103) from the field for the game. “Robertson broke out of a ‘slump’ to score 34 points and Lucas, despite an ailing back, grabbed 24 rebounds. But the Royals shot only 33 per cent from the field and Boston broke the game open before halftime” (The Fort Scott Tribune, Apr. 6, 1964). Boston shot 40-for-98 for 40.8 percent.

Cincinnati won Game 4 102-93 to avoid the sweep. Jerry Lucas had 16 points, 25 rebounds, a season-high 10 assists, and four blocked shots (The Milwaukee Journal, April 8, 1964), and defensively held Russell to one field goal on 12 attempts. Oscar Robertson had a game-high 33 points, 25 in the second half, and Jack Twyman had 31. Sam Jones scored 33 for Boston, but had 24 in the first half but was held to nine in the second half “due to the combined defensive efforts of Arlen Bockhorn and Jay Arnett.” Coach McMahon said, “Arnette gave us a lift at the end. He played right on Jones.” Russell had nine points and 24 rebounds.

Boston won Game 5 109-95 to win their eighth straight Eastern Division title. “There’s my man, Bill Russell,” Auerbach said. “You can have those other guys.” Royals coach Jack McMahon said, “The big factor was when Russell laced on his shoes.” Russell played 47 minutes, had 20 points, 35 rebounds, seven assists, six blocked shots, “two interceptions, one steal and countless unnerving leaps which forced Royals’ shooters to aim off course” (Eugene Register-Guard, Apr. 10, 1964). Oscar Robertson was held to two field goals and nine points in the first half, and finished with 24. Jack Twyman had 16, and Wayne Embry 15. Cincinnati was held to 14-for-39 shooting in the first half (35.9%), while the Celtics shot 24-for-51 (47.1%) in taking a 59-41 lead. Russell had seven rebounds and two blocks in the first quarter (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 9, 1964), and grabbed 11 rebounds in the third (The Deseret News, Apr. 10, 1964). “[T]hat Russell,” Jack McMahon said. “Our leading rebounder, Wayne Embry, got 10. And he got 35.” Sam Jones led Boston with 23 points, Tom Heinsohn had 19, John Havlicek 13, and K.C. Jones had 12 points and seven assists. “Jones also […] [won] the five-game title with a 35 total to 28 for Cincinnati’s Oscar Robertson” (The Deseret News, Apr. 10, 1964).

The Royals were the highest scoring team in the league at 114.7 points per game during the regular season and Boston held them to 93.2 points per game in the five-game series. NBA MVP Oscar Robertson averaged 28.2 points against Boston, down from 31.4 in the regular season, and 30.4 against Syracuse.

April 20, 1964
How K. C. Won An Oscar In The NBA
Jones's defense of Robertson was the top performance by an actor in a supporting role in the playoffs

Frank Deford

The new 52-story Prudential Center notwithstanding, Bill Russell is still the biggest thing in Boston. Last week, in what was supposed to be the choicest series since silver certificates, Russell led his defending champion Boston Celtics to a four-games-to-one rout of Cincinnati. The Royals came in as heir apparent and went out as a mere pretender.

This was only the semifinal in the National Basketball Association's latest assault on spring, but Boston and Cincinnati are the two best teams in the world, and when the series started it appeared that the finals would be superfluous so far as deciding a champion is concerned. For this one, even the hockey fans were on hand—dead giveaways, coming into the Boston Garden with their coat collars turned up.

Out in the Western Division what was happening was not so decisive but far more competitive. First, St. Louis beat Los Angeles, three to two, the home team winning every time, but the Hawks outrebounding the Lakers in four of the five games. The Lakers have never had heft at center, and with both their forwards, Elgin Baylor and Rudy LaRusso, down to about 215 pounds, they were just muscled into submission. Then the Hawks, whose power is spread through the lineup, took on the rugged San Francisco Warriors.

The Warriors have added Nate Thurmond to Wilt Chamberlain, Tom Meschery and Wayne Hightower up front—the muscle part of what Coach Alex Hannum calls his "muscle and hustle team." The battle for second shots between these teams was fearful and bloody.

By contrast, in the East the Celtics got plenty of second shots against the Royals. That and the best sustained defense ever put up by a pro team explained why Boston won. The Celts can shoot a lot because they know Russell will get the ball back off the boards if they miss. They can gamble on defense because they know Russell will stop nearly everything they let through.

The Royals did have some excuses. They had had a time of it beating Philadelphia in the quarter-finals while the champions rested and got themselves up for Cincinnati. They also had injuries, the most important to Jerry Lucas, who Suffered a bone bruise at the base of his spine in the second Philadelphia game. Lucas was not jumping or crashing the boards until the third Celtic game. In each of the first two he had only seven rebounds (10 below his average), and he lost his league-leading scoring touch in the bargain. During the regular season Lucas shot 56.1% against Boston. He averaged the same number of shots in the playoffs, but scored on only 25.4% of them. The difference came to 19 baskets in the five games.

While the Celtics were lucky to catch Cincinnati hurt and playing its worst, Boston won this series, and defense won for Boston. Russell, of course, was magnificent, but K. C. Jones gave the best performance by a supporting actor. K. C. is a polite man of 31 whose idea of getting tough off the court is to grow a mustache even if his wife does not like it. In green-and-white trunks, however, his demeanor is more that of the pro football player he almost became. Jones feels he must do many things because he cannot shoot; he has not, in fact, had a good shot, he says, since high school. But against the Royals it was unimportant whether he shot at all. What K. C. did was to make the plays (seven assists a game), move the ball and stop Oscar Robertson from getting, moving and shooting the ball. K. C. had help from his teammates, who switched beautifully on the few occasions Oscar got a good pick. And John Havlicek did well while Jones was rested. But K. C. was superb when it counted. Most of Robertson's scoring came in the second half of each game, after it was safely decided for the Celtics.

Robertson did average 28.2, which is not exactly negligible. However, during the regular season he had 12 baskets a game against Boston. In the playoffs, averaging the same number of shots, he had only nine baskets. He also made only 5.6 assists as against 9.1 in regular games. In plain language, Robertson was about 12 points down, and it is no coincidence that Boston was an average of 14 points better each game.

K. C. pressed Robertson all over the court, staying between him and the ball. The Royals struggled to get it to Oscar, and whenever they finally did, they just stood around in relief, watching him maneuver for scoring position. They did not pick for him, or work for their own good shots. The whole team was upset by the successful harassment of the one key man.

It was after the second game that Jones candidly wondered aloud why the Royals didn't lob the ball to Oscar. "They could just toss it over my head," he said. K. C. was right, of course, and in the second half of the fourth game the Royals used just that strategy. That was their only good half and it was the only game they won. "I don't know why they didn't do it more," K. C. said after it was all over. Then, still thinking of Robertson, he added, "I don't like to play a man like that—all over the court when he doesn't have the ball. It's like cheating. It isn't fair to him."


“This was unquestionably my best series because for the first time I felt I had something to offer the team,” said K.C. Jones. “In the regular season four men on Cincinnati scored big. For the playoffs we figured we couldn’t shut off Robertson and Twyman, so we concentrated on Lucas and Arlen Bockhorn. It helped that Bockhorn would not drive” (The Telegraph, Apr. 10, 1964).

Bill Russell averaged 15 points and 29.2 rebounds for the series. “The Celtics and Bill Russell have changed the whole concept of the pro game with their defense,” Cincinnati coach Jack McMahon said. “After what I saw in this series, I’ll be thinking defense in my drafting and in my plans for next year” (The Day, Apr. 11, 1964).

“It looks like Boston in six—at tops—whether San Francisco or St. Louis is the opponent. If the Celtics continue to play the way they did against us and Russell doesn’t get hurt, they’ll breeze in the playoff final.

“The Celtics shouldn’t have much trouble,” Oscar Robertson said. “I think San Francisco would be the tougher opponent. Just how tough would depend on Wilt Chamberlain” (The Day, Apr. 11, 1964).

NBA Finals – Boston Celtics (59-21) vs. San Francisco Warriors (48-32): For the first time, Russell and Chamberlain would meet in the NBA Finals. For the regular season, Chamberlain averaged a league-leading 36.9 points a game on 52.4 percent shooting, 22.3 rebounds and 5.0 assists in 46.1 minutes per game, and led the league in PER (31.6) and win shares (25.0), and finished second in offensive win shares (14.4) and second—to Russell—in defensive win shares (10.6).

Boston won Game 1 108-96, John Havlicek scoring 28, including 18 in the second quarter as he hit a record-tying eight field goals, Boston outscoring the Warriors 32-15. In a five-minute burst, the Celtics jumped from a two-point lead to a 20-point lead, 55-38. The New York Times said that “Chamberlain was outplayed by Russell,” who scored only nine points, but grabbed a game-high 25 rebounds in only 32 minutes, “blocked about a dozen shots,” and held Chamberlain scoreless for 21 consecutive minutes through the second and third quarters. Russell held Chamberlain scoreless in the second quarter, “deflect[ing] one of Wilt’s attempts and forc[ing] him to take too many steps on three others,” and also “blocked three Warrior shots in that span.” In one sequence, Russell blocked a fadeaway by Chamberlain, and when Nate Thurmond grabbed the loose ball and took it back up to dunk it, Russell blocked that too. Russell out-rebounded Chamberlain 21-15 in the first half. Clyde Lovellette replaced Russell after Russell drew his fourth foul late in the third quarter, San Francisco having cut Boston’s lead from 29 to 13. “But Lovellette hit his first four field goal tries from far outside and Willie Naulls came off the bench for a couple of hot spells to keep Boston out of danger.” “The Celtics forced San Francisco into so many errors that Russell did not play the last 16 minutes of the game […]” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 19, 1964). Sam Jones had 28, and Willie Naulls had 16. Chamberlain finished with 22 points (4-12 FT) and 23 rebounds.

“The Russell-Chamberlain opening game duel, which ended prematurely, saw the bearded Boston pivot score only nine points but grab 25 rebounds to 23 for Wilt. Chamberlain scored 22 points but only 13 of them came while Russell was in the game” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 20, 1964).

“But let me tell you this,” Alex Hannum said. “The Celtics rely an awful lot on outside shooting. If the night comes that they run cold, they’re going to be in a lot of trouble.”

Boston won Game 2 124-101. Sam Jones led Boston with 31 points and Tom Heinsohn had 20. Russell scored nine points for the second consecutive game and grabbed 24 rebounds. “The Celtics were leading by 35 points early in the fourth quarter when Auerbach lit his famed victory cigar and went into action. He pulled starters and top reserves and swept his extensive Boston bench” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 21, 1964).

BOSTON (AP) — For San Francisco Coach Alex Hannum it looks like a seven-game series. Boston center Bill Russell wishes there were no games left. And big Clyde Lovellette of the Celtics is just waiting for the bell to ring for the second round.

Out of the these conflicting opinions rises the fact that the Celtics now lead two games to none in the championship National Basketball Association playoffs by virtue of Monday night’s 124-101 romp over the Warriors. Games No. 3 and 4 are on tap in San Francisco on Wednesday and Friday nights.

The game’s the thing, but Monday night it almost got lost in the shuffle, or rather, the scuffle

The near free-for-all erupted just after the fourth period opened with the Celtics holding a 31-point advantage at 104-73.

Lovellette fouled Chamberlain, the two exchanged view points and whammo. Chamberlain’s right shot out and Lovellette dropped to his knees.

Players from both benches flooded the floor, but just as quickly appeared the boys in blue and order returned to the Boston Garden.

Boston Coach Red Auerbach was fuming and had to be pulled back to the bench by Russell.

Chamberlain had little to say of the incident after the game except to imply there had been due provocation by Lovellette.

Lovellette, with a cherry-red mark on his upper lip,

“All of a sudden, boom... and I was down. I don’t know what caused it. Maybe he was sore about being behind by 30 points. But it’s no disgrace to be decked by a 7-foot-2, 290-pounder.”

“I play Wilt a lot closer than Russell,” big Clyde continued. “But I have to. I can’t jump like Russell. But I’ve played him like that before and if he knocks me down 10 times, I’ll stay play him like that.”

Auerbach explained he was sore because Wilt was not disqualified. The Boston coach said the disqualification is mandatory when a player tosses a punch.

“The least they could have done was to call a double foul, one on Chamberlain,” Auerbach said. “The officials handled the situation very poorly.”

Russell said he was “real tired” and that he wishes the series was down to the final game or else over completely.

The Warriors again were just no match for the hot-shooting Celtics and their bird dog defense.

Statistically, the only bright light for the Warriors was Chamberlain’s 32 points which led all scorers. Sam Jones with 31 was tops for the Celtics.


Chamberlain left the game with five minutes left in the fourth quarter (The Palm Beach Post, Apr. 21, 1964), with a game-high 32 points and 25 rebounds. Tom Meschery had 24.

Philadelphia won Game 3 115-91, Chamberlain with 35 points and 25 rebounds. “Wilt Chamberlain scored 35 and outplayed Boston’s Bill Russell although the bearded Boston great still outrebounded Wilt, 32-25. But Chamberlain tossed in 35 points” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 23, 1964). “Tom Meschery tied the NBA playoff record of eight field goals in a quarter, hitting 17 points in the opening stanza as the Warriors surged to a 40-21 lead” (The Sumter Daily Item, Apr. 23, 1964). Meschery finished with 21. “Nate Thurmond, who played poorly in the first two playoff games, rolled in 14 points while holding Boston’s Tom Heinsohn to just eight” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 23, 1964). “Only John Havlicek and Willie Naulls brought their shooting eyes out West as they netted 22 and 18” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 23, 1964). “Bill Russell was the only Boston starter to hit in double figures” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 23, 1964), with 16 points to go along with his game-high 32 rebounds. Sam Jones scored only six points, coming off a 31-point performance. “All told the Warriors hit 53.4 per cent of their shots from the floor—the Celtics 31.8. In Boston about the reverse had been true the first two games” (Reading Eagle, Apr. 23, 1964). “The Warriors were really hot,” Auerbach said. “That Meschery and Chamberlain killed us. This was a little more aggressive than the usual game, but it was clean. You aren’t going to beat a team that shoots 59 per cent against you in the first half, especially at home. Once they got that momentum we couldn’t catch them.”

Boston won Game 4 98-95 to take a 3-games-to-1 lead. Tom Heinson led Boston with 25 points—15 in the third quarter, and Sam Jones had 23. Russell had eight points and 19 rebounds. “Bill Russell turned in a tremendous defensive job and Wilt Chamberlain was limited to 27 points, high for the night but low for the 7-foot-1 Warrior ace” (The Miami News, Apr. 25, 1964). Wilt Chamberlain, “who had Russell in his hair most of the night” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 25, 1964), led San Francisco with 27 points and grabbed 38 rebounds—tying the second-highest single-game total in NBA Finals history. Guy Rodgers had 23. “The big significance in the game was Boston’s great, great defense,” said Philadelphia coach Alex Hannum. “They were completely aggressive all of the time and never gave up pressing us” (The Miami News, Apr. 25, 1964).

In the end, Warrior Coach Alex Hannum blamed his team’s loss on “a bounce of the ball.” He referred to a crucial play under the Boston basket after two Rodgers’ free throws had cut Boston’s lead to 92-91.

With a little more than a minute to play, John Havlicek shot from near the foul line and missed. The ball bounced wide of the rim and into Bill Russell’s hand. The Boston center passed back to Havlicek who sank a two-pointer to restore the Celtics’ three-point margin.


“Bill Russell, the rebounding-defensive key to Boston’s success who has held Wilt Chamberlain in check better than any other man could, […] revealed the extra incentive which has spurred the team while admitting ‘Championships are harder to come by.’ ‘I just wanted to win this thing so badly I was hungrier this year than I’ve ever been since my freshman year in college,’ Russell added. ‘I got sick and tired of having people ask how we’d do without Bob Cousy. I have the greatest respect for Cousy. We all do. But it was irritating to have so many people think we as a team, couldn’t win on our own’” (Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Apr. 26, 1964).

Boston won Game 5 105-99 to take the series 4-1. Tom Heinson led Boston with 19 points, Sam Jones and Frank Ramsey had 18, Bill Russell played all 48 minutes and had 14 points, 26 rebounds and six assists, John Havlicek had 14, and Satch Sanders had 11. Wilt Chamberlain had 30 points and 27 rebounds to lead San Francisco. “Russell did his usual fine job defending against Wilt Chamberlain, giant of this sport of giants, Wilt didn’t score for the first six minutes” (Gordon S. White Jr., New York Times, Apr. 27, 1964). After being held scoreless for the first six minutes of the game, Chamberlain scored 18 points in the second half, and cut it to 101-99 with 19 seconds left. Russell dunked a miss by Tom Heinsohn with 12 seconds left to seal it for Boston. Guy Rodgers had 19 for San Francisco.

]BOSTON (AP) — The proud Celtics, spurred by Bill Russell, mustered all their defense and teamwork for a rough 105-99 victory over San Francisco and an unprecedented sixth straight National Basketball Association championship Sunday night.

Boston thus extended its dynasty to heights never before attained by professional athletes.

But the Warriors aggressively battled to the wire before the Celtics could climax a year of dedication by wrapping up in five games the final NBA playoff series.

Russell rebounded a Tom Heinsohn miss and dunked it in with 12 seconds left for the clincher. A parade to the foul line had enabled San Francisco to close at 101-99 at the 19-second mark.

Towering Wilt Chamberlain and little Guy Rodgers brought the Warriors back from an 11-point deficit in the fourth quarter, when a basket by Chamberlain made it 78-77 for the visitors.

But the foul-laden Celtics, who love winning and do it better than anyone else, would not be denied.

Russell fed Willie Naulls and sank a free throw as Boston regained the lead 80-78.

Heinsohn, a spark as were Sam Jones and retiring co-captain Frank Ramsey, got two free throws. Next Russell leaped high for a rebound and fed Heinsohn the length of the court and it was 84-79. It was a battle the rest of the way but the Celtics held on for their seventh title in eight years.

In the annals of pro playoff sports the highest previous string of consecutive titles was five. It has been shared by the Celtics, the New York Yankees of 1949-53 and Montreal’s Stanley Cup hockey kings of 1956-60.

With two minutes left, Ramsey put in two free throws that just about wrapped it up 100-92. Thus, the master of the clutch role strolled out of the basketball picture as he had entered it. His 20-foot jump shot in the second overtime beat St. Louis 125-123 in the seventh game of the first crown in 1957.

While Russell played defense as only he can, the Celtics got their scoring power from Sam Jones, Ramsey and Heinsohn, who scored 18, 18, and 19 respectively. Chamberlain collected 30 and Rodgers 19 for the losers.


Bill Russell said, “This has to be the best Celtics team of all,” after the Celtics became the first team in sports history to win six consecutive championships. “The league was tougher this year so we had to be better to win. No one can tell me San Francisco isn’t a great team. We all know Cincinnati was terrific. Boston had to be something special.” The New York Yankees won five straight from 1949 to 1953, and the Montreal Canadians won the Stanley Cup from 1956 to 1960. “Key to the stunning Boston rout first of Cincinnati and later the Warriors in playoff action was the work of bearded center and defensive ace Bill Russell” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 27, 1964).

“No one picked us to win and we stuffed it down their throats,” said Auerbach. “Winning these championships gets bigger every year. The first one still is the first one, something special. But next to 1957 this has to be the biggest.”

Russell averaged 11.2 points and 25.2 rebounds in the five-game series. Wilt Chamberlain set a record for most rebounds in a five-game series with 138, and Nate Thurmond averaged 13 rebounds a game, the second-highest average for a rookie in the NBA Finals, behind Bill Russell in 1957.

May 04, 1964
Follow The Bouncing Ball From Honolulu To Boston
After a seven-month tour that nearly spanned the seasons and the globe, the NBA's road show ended with a dunk by big Bill Russell


Frank Deford

Bill Russell was chatting a few hours before Boston was to play San Francisco in the third game of the National Basketball Association finals. He looked down at his watch. It said 5:30, which meant that it was 2:30, because even though he had been in San Francisco for a day, Russell had not set his watch back. Why bother? In the NBA, time is not measured in hours. The season started back in September in Honolulu and Salisbury, Md. There were weeks of exhibitions, then 80 regular games and then for the last five weeks, the playoffs. The playoffs carried the NBA into Daylight Saving Time, through 14 days of the baseball season, and could have gone into the month of May were it not for the fact that Boston dispensed with San Francisco in five games.

This sort of thing happens every year. They play all those games from September to May, and it always turns out that the Boston Celtics win. They are now the only professional team in history to win six straight championships. (The Yankees won five, 1949-1953, and the Montreal Canadiens five, 1956-1960.)

"The difference, you know," Russell said, "between all the teams in this league is very slight. All you need is an edge. When the game starts there are 10 guys out there just looking for an edge. That's why one team can win by 20 points and then turn around and get beat by the same team by 20 points—losing the edge." Russell was quite the bearded prophet. After trouncing the Warriors two in a row, the Celts got beat by 24. It was their last loss. The Celtics seldom get beat by 24, or beat at all, because they do not have to find an edge. They have a built-in edge named Bill Russell.

Russell played a routinely masterful series against San Francisco—and he had to rise to heights against the Warriors to neutralize Wilt Chamberlain, who was finishing his finest year. This was Wilt's first championship. He rebounded magnificently, but it was not often enough that he could work himself in when he got the ball in the pivot. Russell forced him to depend on his fall-away jumper, a shot that takes Chamberlain completely out of the action if he misses. In addition, K.C. Jones helped Russell when he could, pestering Wilt with flailing arms and attempted steals. Russell also had to contend with Warrior Rookie Nate Thurmond, 6 feet 11, an agile giant who complements Wilt and gives the Warriors the equivalent of the two-big-backs backfield with which the Green Bay Packers shocked pro football a couple of years ago.

Still, this awesome San Francisco front-line power could not match the overall Boston depth and aggressive defense, and the intimidating presence of Russell. "He never stops showing you something new," Warrior playmaker Guy Rodgers said after the fourth game. "Once he blocked Wilt's big shot, and then Thurmond got it and Russell came over to the other side of the basket and blocked Thurmond's shot, too."

A lot of players have begun to block shots since Russell showed how it can be done, but with most of them it is a desperation move, and if it is successful the ball is merely knocked out-of-bounds. The other team still has the ball and can try to score again. When Russell blocks a shot, he nearly always sends the ball, in the same motion, into the arms of a free teammate. The Celtics then have a four-point play: the opponents have lost two, and Boston has gained two. Five such plays a game and Boston has a 20-point edge.

The fourth was the key playoff game, the first close one and the only one in which the home-court advantage was lost. The Warriors regrouped, fought off injuries and came back valiantly in the fifth game, but it was not quite enough. Down 100-92 with 1:55 left, they cut it to 101-99 with 19 seconds to go. Then Tom Heinsohn missed a driving hook, but Russell got the rebound and stuffed away that sixth straight championship.

It was a sudden burst of Heinsohn's shooting shenanigans that won the important fourth game, when the Warriors still had a reasonable chance. Until midway in the third quarter, Heinsohn had not had a good series. His shooting was off, and he was definitely bothered by Thurmond, who is four inches taller. Heinsohn is the shooter in a city where the glories of Cousy's passing and Russell's defense are as much a part of the native folklore as the spirit of '76 and the MTA. Heinsohn is known, sometimes affectionately, as "Gunner," and he is easy to spot on the court. He is the guy with his hand up, waving at whoever on his team has the ball—because he wants it. He is, actually, an outstanding offensive rebounder, but his reputation is based strictly on his shooting and his temper. Heinsohn is so intense that he regularly draws technical fouls in team scrimmages. All this is a far cry from the off-court Heinsohn, who is a most genial sort. The NBA players have made him their league representative.

During Heinsohn's shooting lapse in the playoffs, roommate Frank Ramsey had watched him closely from the bench. "You know," Ramsey told him, "from where I was sitting, a couple of times you were driving directly at me, and I could see your eyes. You are watching out for Thurmond and Wilt so much that you hardly even look at the rim before you shoot." Heinsohn was trying to overcome Thurmond's advantage in size with all kinds of hesitation shots to fake him out. "Thurmond doesn't play you so you can feel him," Heinsohn said. "You have to watch him."

But it was not until Heinsohn took Ramsey's advice and looked at his shooting target that he had any success against Thurmond. In the most devastating personal streak of the series, Heinsohn broke open the big game. The Celtics were behind 52-51 when Heinsohn, trailing on a fast break, broke through for a three-point play. He tipped in a basket seconds later, and after Sam Jones stole the ball Heinsohn hit a jump shot. Two free throws by K.C. Jones made it 63-55, and then Heinsohn went berserk. Consecutively, he tossed in another jumper, a hook driving down the middle, another hook cutting across and finally a layup on a fast break—the way it had all started. By then it was 71-60 and time for a rest.

Though they won only one game of five, the Warriors still are the latest of those Teams of The Future that pop up every year as a challenge to the Celtics. "A lot of ball teams have come and gone since we first beat St. Louis in '57," Frank Ramsey said—more in amazement than braggadocio—after it was all over. Ramsey was retiring, just as Cousy did last year, with a picture-book finale. And Ramsey's departure is, in a way, more the end of an era than Cousy's was. Ramsey is the last of the 6-foot-3 forwards. In the playoffs, 6-foot-3 Forward Ramsey guarded 6-foot-11 Forward Thurmond. There will be no more of that. Last year the nine NBA teams drafted six guards on the first round, and let a sleeper like big, rugged Gus Johnson get through to the second. This year no Johnsons will be missed. Muscle, best exemplified by the Warriors' Chamberlain-Thurmond- Tom Meschery front yard, has taken over. Lithe but lean players like Terry Dischinger of Baltimore, who is 6 feet 7 but only 190 pounds, are being shifted to the back court. (Another trend in this same area has begun: the NFL and AFL are also trying to shift the middle-size, fast athletes—into pro football uniforms. The Cowboys drafted ex-Utah State basketball star Cornell Green and the Cleveland Browns have signed Levern Tart of Bradley. A speedy 6-foot-4 man is ideal for pass defense.) One ex-Team of The Future, Los Angeles, has discovered that superb shooting is not enough to win in the NBA, even if it is the Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Dick Barnett type of shooting. The Lakers, except for those three and Rudy La-Russo, are going to be rebuilt with tall musclemen who can move like Fred Astaire. If they can be found.

A fascinating exception to the new rule is, of all teams, the Boston Celtics. Since Jim Loscutoff started spending most of his time on the bench, the Celtics have had little muscle on the court. They win with the wiry types like the Jones boys, Havlicek and Ramsey. But then, they have Bill Russell.
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#94 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:07 pm

Since I have an engagement which will preclude me from voting before the deadline:

#1. Russell over Oscar and Wilt, for the reasons posted above. He faced both and beat both. Against Cincinnati, Russell had the statement game in Game 1 where he had 18 points, 31 rebounds and 11 blocks while league MVP Oscar Robertson was shut down, and Russell single-handedly held the Royals scoreless for the first five minutes of the game, snuffing Twyman, Embry and Oscar. In the Finals he held Wilt to 29.2 points, down from 36.9 and made him resort to the fadeaway. In Game 1, he held Wilt absolutely scoreless for almost half the game. He out-rebounded Wilt 26.8 to 25 rpg in Games 1, 2, 3 and 5—it was Game 4 where Wilt out-rebounded him 38-19 that put him ahead for the series 27.6 to 25.2, but even in that game, Russell grabbed the big offensive rebound that Hannum said was the reason why the Warriors lost—quality over quantity, and in Game 5 his offensive rebound and dunk was essentially what won the Celtics the title. As Wilt said, “When they needed a rebound for them, Bill Russell went and got it for them.”

The Celtics won with defense, and Russell was the reason they were able to be so aggressive.

#2. Wilt

#3. Oscar

#4. West

#5. Pettit
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#95 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:30 pm

fatal9 wrote:3. Russell - Having trouble overlooking the numbers. 13.1 ppg on 35.6% in the playoffs. Didn't really stop Wilt at all in the series, Wilt averaged 29/28/? on 57% to Russell's 11/25/? on presumably sub 40% shooting, and from the footage (albeit only one half), I did not feel Russell was in any way a better player than Wilt, his team was better.


Where does this percentage come from? I've seen people throw around percentages but have failed to say how they came to those numbers. Last time, someone jumped on hearsay from someone else without even bothering to verify it, and the hearsay wasn't even based on anything solid. To say Russell "didn't really stop Wilt at all in the series" goes against the accounts at the time (and considering the fact that Russell started the series by holding Wilt scoreless for almost half the game, and allowing him only 13 points total during the time he was in the game, flatly contradicts this statement), so I'm going to have to ask for some proof on this (hopefully it's more substantial than, "a guy said, x so that means...").
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#96 » by Optimism Prime » Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:17 pm

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. Bob Pettit
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#97 » by ElGee » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:00 pm

My 1964 POY Ballot:

1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Jerry West
5. Bob Pettit

Another amazing year from Bill Russell. Only solidified by his own recollection that this was his best defensive effort and the (coincidentally?) all-time record for estimated defensive win shares. And Russ didn't have opponent's defensive stats when he said that, nor did all those coaches when they spoke of Boston's D in Regulator's great research.

I was certainly sold by the many Chamberlain arguments. As stated, I think this is one of those years where Chamberlain's defensive effort is really there. I think he and Hannum go well together. But ultimately I'm really comfortable with Russell at No. 1 for three reasons:

(1) Russell's defensive impact is still much larger than Wilt's
(2) Russell seemed to really handle Wilt well in the Finals
(3) Russell's Celtics absolutely destroyed the league 01 Lakers style

Furthermore, watching that half of the Finals again, I wasn't overly impressed with Wilt's offense. There is some affirmation bias potential on my part, but that Wilt was plodding, holding, turning it over (travel or 3 seconds) and looked significantly less effective than the Pivot Anchor Wilt from 67 and 68. Still, Chamberlain's defensive was good, his team wasn't that good, he has no notable Wilt quirks or distractions, so I'm comfortable with him against Oscar.

Robertson was an easy third. In most situations, when the new MVP takes a jump, we see a more resilient effort in the playoffs. O didn't have that, so he's not giving me a better chance at a title than Chamberlain. Plus, I think Russell voter fatigue was in major play here. If Russell were a rookie, Boston lost Cousy, and joined the team and the Celtics dominated the league defensively like that (arguably to the greatest degree in NBA history) and smashed the league, I'm thinking Russ wins MVP in a runaway.

Wasn't really confident about the last part of my ballot. This still seems to be the really good Jerry West. I've always like Bob, or as Optimism calls him, Bill Pettit's game. Look forward to learning more about him, so based on some typically peripheral stuff, I'll hesitantly give Pettit the 5th spot (4th in MVP vote) over Elgin Baylor or even Sam Jones (smaller RS minutes but the typical awesome offensive explosions in the playoffs).
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#98 » by Optimism Prime » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Hey all,

I'm going to be out of town for a few days, so Optimism Prime has agreed to call time on the voting tomorrow and tally up the votes.

Cheers,
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#99 » by Optimism Prime » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:25 pm

'63-64 Results

Code: Select all

Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Wilt Chamberlain   10   6   1   0   0  147   0.864
2. Bill Russell        5   9   3   0   0  128   0.753
3. Oscar Robertson     2   2  13   0   0   99   0.582
4. Jerry West          0   0   0  15   2   56   0.329
5. Bob Pettit          0   0   0   2  15   21   0.124
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Re: Retro POY '63-64 (ends Fri morning) 

Post#100 » by drza » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:32 pm

Optimism Prime wrote:'63-64 Results

Code: Select all

Player               1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Wilt Chamberlain    9   6   1   0   0  137   0.856
2. Bill Russell        5   8   3   2   0  121   0.756
3. Oscar Robertson     2   2  12   0   0   94   0.588
4. Jerry West          0   0   0  15   1   55   0.344
5. Bob Pettit          0   0   0   1  15   18   0.113


Just at a glance, I see Russell totals 18 votes while the others all total 16. Is that a typo?
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