Can we shut the book on the Williams/Paul debate?

[NO-KG-AI]

Nash has to be the best PG by your definition. He's more impressive statistically and has better playoff success, since that is your big sticking point.

Using raw points/rebounds/assists as your argument is terrible, and Paul is going to end the season better there anyway, but it's still so far beyond terrible. There stats are not close, just because you don't understand statistics doesn't make it close. It's not close at all, it's a massive massive gap, Nash is the guy that always comes out closer than Deron.

[Bradford]

Nash has to be the best PG by your definition. He's more impressive statistically and has better playoff success, since that is your big sticking point.

Using raw points/rebounds/assists as your argument is terrible, and Paul is going to end the season better there anyway, but it's still so far beyond terrible. There stats are not close, just because you don't understand statistics doesn't make it close. It's not close at all, it's a massive massive gap, Nash is the guy that always comes out closer than Deron.

Nash is also 36 years old, so obviously he has a better chance at having more playoff success....

Also, using raw stats is common sense. It's what the players ACTUALLY DO ON THE COURT, not some made up modified stat.

[Bradford]

Nah it's been his place to overrate everyone on the Jazz for a few years. I rarely seem him post, but when he does it's memorable because it's SO bad

How bout them Blazers?

[farzi]

Nah it's been his place to overrate everyone on the Jazz for a few years. I rarely seem him post, but when he does it's memorable because it's SO bad

How bout them Blazers?

Highly relevant in this thread. Also gave the Jazz a scare without their two best players while maintaining a winning record

[Bradford]

Nah it's been his place to overrate everyone on the Jazz for a few years. I rarely seem him post, but when he does it's memorable because it's SO bad

How bout them Blazers?

Highly relevant in this thread. Also gave the Jazz a scare without their two best players while maintaining a winning record

Oh yeah I was shakin in my boots.....

[dogrufus]

I posted this at another forum because me and a friend are having the exact same debate...


At the end of the day, in my mind it comes down to this. Paul puts up amaizing stats, im not denying that, his stats are better then Derons, But not by much at all. And if you dont think The systems they run has something to do with it then your flat out wrong.

So with that being Said i conciede that Paul's stats are better then Derons, But really not by much. One rebound a game, one assist a game and a couple of more steals. Pauls' career stats are 19, 10 and 4, and Derons are 16, 9 and 3. You can break it down even further then that but they are all very close.

But When you look at their Team sucuss Deron Flat out rapes CP3, ive said it a million times but ill say it again, 5 playoff appearances to 1, WCF trip for the Jazz, one playoff series win for the Hornets.

Head to Head its not even close again. Deron has much better stats, shoots a career % with Paul guarding him and his team is 14-4 career vs Paul.

These last two points you refuse to acknowledge when determining who is a better player. I personally think it is important when judging these two players. If you were to judge the two best QB's in football you would certanly take into consideration that QB A has dominated QB B in head to head match ups.

So in your mind, a couple of extra rebounds, steals and points >>>>>>> Team Success and the Ability to lead your team to wins and playoff victories. The word lead is very important, considering that is pretty much a Point Guards job.

Also this is a great article about the debate...Heres a paragraph from that article

http://dimemag.com/2010/11/whos-better-deron-williams-or-chris-paul/

"Finally, as the “leader” of a team’s on-court performance, what is most often described as a point guard’s most important quality? The ability to make their teammates better. And win. I’m sure you may have heard, but in head-to-head match-ups over the course of their career, Williams has destroyed Paul. In 18 career games against the Hornets with Williams running the show, the Jazz are 14-4. That’s not some stat put together over a small sample size. That is five years of basketball, with different players and situations. I don’t even really need to mention that when they met in college, Williams’ Illinois team spanked Paul and his Wake Forest Demon Deacons. Williams has led Utah to the playoffs every year since his rookie season and has been to the Western Conference Finals. Paul has only one career playoff series win under his belt."

The stats really aren't actually close at all.

Assist/Turnover Ratio
Paul 4.39 Williams 2.88

True Shooting Percentage
Paul .608
Williams .558

PER
Paul 27.7, leads team by FAR
Williams 21, 2nd on team

Offense Rating
Paul 125
Williams 111

Defense Rating (lower is better)
Paul 97
Williams 107

Win Shares per 48 minutes
Paul .303
Williams .229

Above Average Teammates (by PER)
Paul: West (20.7), Okafor (15.4)
Williams: Millsap (22.8), Jefferson (16.7)

And yet...

Team Winning %:
Paul: .786
Willams: .688


Deron has won the head to head matchup but Paul is better vs. the rest of the league. You know, the 94% of teams he'll be playing the vast majority of the time. But if you think the head to head matchup is the end-all be-all I guess you think Yao is better than Dwight Howard.

The Jazz have also had a lot more talent than the Hornets. Their backup PF from last year is better than anyone Paul's ever played with.

The Jazz have a better team but Paul is a better player. That's why he'd led his less talented team to more wins, and that's why he's a top 5 MVP candidate when healthy while Deron has never been.

[now and 4 life]

Not a flame war thread. Legitimate question. Deron Williams ran circles around CP3 tonight, pretty much having his way with him for 26 points, 11 assists, 5 steals, and another blowout victory.

So who is better? Do I just wear thick homer goggles?

Thanks.

It doesn't matter how they play in the regular season. It matters how they play in the playoffs. And neither has done squat in the playoffs.

LOL at done squat

[Bradford]

The Jazz have a better team but Paul is a better player. That's why he'd led his less talented team to more wins, and that's why he's a top 5 MVP candidate when healthy while Deron has never been.

More wins? 12=12 last time I checked.

[now and 4 life]

The Jazz have a better team but Paul is a better player. That's why he'd led his less talented team to more wins, and that's why he's a top 5 MVP candidate when healthy while Deron has never been.

More wins? 12=12 last time I checked.

LOL at you arguing semantics.

[dogrufus]

Not a flame war thread. Legitimate question. Deron Williams ran circles around CP3 tonight, pretty much having his way with him for 26 points, 11 assists, 5 steals, and another blowout victory.

So who is better? Do I just wear thick homer goggles?

Thanks.

It doesn't matter how they play in the regular season. It matters how they play in the playoffs. And neither has done squat in the playoffs.

LOL at done squat

This is such a dumb line of argument. Neither of these guys are even in their prime yet. They're still young.

Williams' playoff success has a lot more to do with the Jazz having a lot more talent and great coaching than any magical ability on his part.

[Bradford]

The Jazz have a better team but Paul is a better player. That's why he'd led his less talented team to more wins, and that's why he's a top 5 MVP candidate when healthy while Deron has never been.

More wins? 12=12 last time I checked.

LOL at you arguing semantics.

His using "more wins" as an argument for Paul is what's funny. We're like 15 games into the season....and we all know Utah will finish ahead of the Hornets...

[Copperhead]

I posted this at another forum because me and a friend are having the exact same debate...


At the end of the day, in my mind it comes down to this. Paul puts up amaizing stats, im not denying that, his stats are better then Derons, But not by much at all. And if you dont think The systems they run has something to do with it then your flat out wrong.

So with that being Said i conciede that Paul's stats are better then Derons, But really not by much. One rebound a game, one assist a game and a couple of more steals. Pauls' career stats are 19, 10 and 4, and Derons are 16, 9 and 3. You can break it down even further then that but they are all very close.

But When you look at their Team sucuss Deron Flat out rapes CP3, ive said it a million times but ill say it again, 5 playoff appearances to 1, WCF trip for the Jazz, one playoff series win for the Hornets.

Head to Head its not even close again. Deron has much better stats, shoots a career % with Paul guarding him and his team is 14-4 career vs Paul.

These last two points you refuse to acknowledge when determining who is a better player. I personally think it is important when judging these two players. If you were to judge the two best QB's in football you would certanly take into consideration that QB A has dominated QB B in head to head match ups.

So in your mind, a couple of extra rebounds, steals and points >>>>>>> Team Success and the Ability to lead your team to wins and playoff victories. The word lead is very important, considering that is pretty much a Point Guards job.

Also this is a great article about the debate...Heres a paragraph from that article

http://dimemag.com/2010/11/whos-better-deron-williams-or-chris-paul/

"Finally, as the “leader” of a team’s on-court performance, what is most often described as a point guard’s most important quality? The ability to make their teammates better. And win. I’m sure you may have heard, but in head-to-head match-ups over the course of their career, Williams has destroyed Paul. In 18 career games against the Hornets with Williams running the show, the Jazz are 14-4. That’s not some stat put together over a small sample size. That is five years of basketball, with different players and situations. I don’t even really need to mention that when they met in college, Williams’ Illinois team spanked Paul and his Wake Forest Demon Deacons. Williams has led Utah to the playoffs every year since his rookie season and has been to the Western Conference Finals. Paul has only one career playoff series win under his belt."

The stats really aren't actually close at all.

Assist/Turnover Ratio
Paul 4.39 Williams 2.88

True Shooting Percentage
Paul .608
Williams .558

PER
Paul 27.7, leads team by FAR
Williams 21, 2nd on team

Offense Rating
Paul 125
Williams 111

Defense Rating (lower is better)
Paul 97
Williams 107

Win Shares per 48 minutes
Paul .303
Williams .229

Above Average Teammates (by PER)
Paul: West (20.7), Okafor (15.4)
Williams: Millsap (22.8), Jefferson (16.7)

And yet...

Team Winning %:
Paul: .786
Willams: .688


Deron has won the head to head matchup but Paul is better vs. the rest of the league. You know, the 94% of teams he'll be playing the vast majority of the time. But if you think the head to head matchup is the end-all be-all I guess you think Yao is better than Dwight Howard.

The Jazz have also had a lot more talent than the Hornets. Their backup PF from last year is better than anyone Paul's ever played with.

The Jazz have a better team but Paul is a better player. That's why he'd led his less talented team to more wins, and that's why he's a top 5 MVP candidate when healthy while Deron has never been.

Paul has been a SERIOUS MVP candidate while Deron has never been. He plays great and some writers list him as a candidate to keep up conversation with the so called debate but they know he isn't really a serious candidate. How could that be though? Surely if you win a head to head match against Chris Paul you then must be a serious MVP candidate right? Paul is not only the PER leader on his team, he's currently leading the entire league in PER while Deron currently has a PER that Paul had as a rookie. Paul is currently leading the entire league in Win Shares per 48 minutes. Why doesn't Deron EVER lead in anything at his position? But hey, he leads the league in head to head matches against Paul so that has to count for something right? But hey, Deron and Chris are the only players on the court during those games that makes a difference right? Wow. I would love to see if Deron could have taken Paul's 07-08 team to 56 wins. I'd bet my house that he wouldn't/couldn't have. It cracks me up though that some Jazz fans can't enjoy the great job Deron does because they're too focused on him being 'better' than Chris Paul.

[Bradford]

I would love to see if Deron could have taken Paul's 07-08 team to 56 wins. I'd bet my house that he wouldn't/couldn't have.

Yeah how could Deron ever do that.....

[Rapcity_11]

I'm more of a D-Will fan, but I take CP3.

It's funny how all the arguments for D-Will are always poor/stupid while the ones for Paul are much more legitimate and based on actual evidence.

Also you never see Paul fans admit D-Will is better but you do see D-Will fans (like me) admit that Paul is better. Says something.

[Bradford]

Listen to Kobe and the GM's.

[dogrufus]

LOL we are so bad at home.

Guess those wins against bad teams were fool's gold.

[Copperhead]

Listen to Kobe and the GM's.

Well ok then. Since Kobe and the GM's have spoken, you guys should be content with that and can now stop starting these threads then right? The GM's and Kobe are all the validation you guys need right? This should be enough for you right?

[Bradford]

Listen to Kobe and the GM's.

Well ok then. Since Kobe and the GM's have spoken, you guys should be content with that and can now stop starting these threads then right? The GM's and Kobe are all the validation you guys need right? This should be enough for you right?

Common sense was all I needed. You seem to be lacking in that department.

[Copperhead]

Listen to Kobe and the GM's.

Well ok then. Since Kobe and the GM's have spoken, you guys should be content with that and can now stop starting these threads then right? The GM's and Kobe are all the validation you guys need right? This should be enough for you right?

Common sense was all I needed. You seem to be lacking in that department.

Typical Jazz fan. When people don't agree with them then you're the one that don't have the common sense and then the insults ensue. Typical.

[dogrufus]

Gotta love Bradford. 1706 posts, 1 sentence each, zero substance every time

Are you some kind of automated script?