RealGM Top 100 #3

Dipper 13 · Post #81 » by **Dipper 13** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 8:55 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA5eChhcv1U#t=3m27s

Williamson Daily News - Jan 6, 1971

lorak · Post #82 » by **lorak** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 8:57 pm

Yeh, great stories, as always, but show me some FACTS. Real examples of West defensive impact, for example when West stopped some star in the playoffs.

EDIT
Elgee,
If I'm remember correctly you was running +/- or with/without for West and Robertson during POY project? Do you have this data, could you show it?

Fencer reregistered · Post #83 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 9:27 pm

Sam Jones wrote:I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/chat/chat? ... 55252&wjb=

lorak · Post #84 » by **lorak** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 9:32 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Sam Jones wrote:I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/chat/chat? ... 55252&wjb=

Great, another opinions (BTW, according to opinions - also said by players - Kobe Bryant is the best perimeter defender of XXI century and he deserved all his all D selections...), but please, give some fact, for example in which playoffs series West's defense stopped Jones? When West's defense significantly impacted result of the playoff series?

ElGee · Post #85 » by **ElGee** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 9:42 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Sam Jones wrote:I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/chat/chat? ... 55252&wjb=

Great, another opinions (BTW, according to opinions - also said by players - Kobe Bryant is the best perimeter defender of XXI century and he deserved all his all D selections...), but please, give some fact, for example in which playoffs series West's defense stopped Jones? When West's defense significantly impacted result of the playoff series?

Ummm. Kobe Bryant IS the best perimeter defender of XXI century. Don't you watch basketball-reference?

Fencer reregistered · Post #86 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 9:56 pm

DavidStern wrote: give some fact, for example in which playoffs series West's defense stopped Jones? When West's defense significantly impacted result of the playoff series?

I must confess that Jerry West's defense on Sam Jones never had the effect of causing his team to beat Sam Jones' in a playoff series.

Vinsanity420 · Post #87 » by **Vinsanity420** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:00 pm

Jerry West is like the Kobe of that era... "Mr Clutch" - if one did an analysis of his clutch play he probably would not statistically separate himself from his peers... and his "defense" was a result of reputation. There's no stat to prove otherwise since it was the 60's and synergy/82games.com didn't exist, so people take advantage of that and paint Jerry West to be some sort of a God-like figure to play the game.

Post #88 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:10 pm

DavidStern wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Sam Jones wrote:I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.

http://m.espn.go.com/general/chat/chat? ... 55252&wjb=

Great, another opinions (BTW, according to opinions - also said by players - Kobe Bryant is the best perimeter defender of XXI century and he deserved all his all D selections...), but please, give some fact, for example in which playoffs series West's defense stopped Jones? When West's defense significantly impacted result of the playoff series?

Some skepticism is healthy, but when you're talking about players who you haven't seen nearly as much as the people of the era, some respect for their knowledge is also due.

tclg · Post #89 » by **tclg** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:18 pm

I vote Kareem his resume is pretty amazing and his whole resume just makes it better. His finals Mvps are something to think about he was an elite player for a ridiculous amount of time. His Scoring efficiency is what really does it for me. His rebounding sure was not a weakness and he had a strong understanding of the game. He maybe wasnt the best leader but He seemed to play great in the playoffs. Six MVP's thats just ridiculous imagine how hard it is to do that.

Nominate Oscar Robertson

Post #90 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:21 pm

DavidStern wrote:In this case offense is more than just scoring. Robertson was anchoring great offenses, just like Russell great defenses. And West never was as good defensively as Kidd (one of the few small players who impacted defense on team level = we could say that he was the most important part of very good defensive teams).

Besides, any examples of West effectively guarding some stars in the playoffs? Really 6-2 player has impressive defensive impact on the game? (Comparable to Robertson's impact on offense?) Really?

Whoa, slow down here.

-The Royals offense was nowhere near as dominant as the Celtics defense. That's why the Celtics had the greatest dynasty in all of sports history and the Royals were often mediocre to bad.

-The Lakers were the 2nd best offense of the 60s, and in '67-68 actually had the best offense of the era (based on deviation from median).

It's absolutely not right to look at Oscar as someone leading an offensive juggarnaut while the Lakers were inept.

-Kidd did not impact defense at a team level, he just got bloody lucky to go to a team just as their defense clicked. Yes he helped the defense, but not to anywhere near the degree that it could be said that he was the bulk of the turnaround. The +/- data backs this up: It says, Kidd's defense is good for a guard, but when he was in his prime, he was always much more impactful on offense.

-I have to point out the saying offense > defense for guards, so always pick the offensive guard is just not nearly nuanced enough. All depends on the scale of the difference on both sides of the ball.

Dr Positivity · Post #91 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:40 pm

Vinsanity420 wrote:Jerry West is like the Kobe of that era... "Mr Clutch" - if one did an analysis of his clutch play he probably would not statistically separate himself from his peers... and his "defense" was a result of reputation. There's no stat to prove otherwise since it was the 60's and synergy/82games.com didn't exist, so people take advantage of that and paint Jerry West to be some sort of a God-like figure to play the game.

These are West's Finals pts totals if anyone's wondering, from http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1963.htm Has FGs and not FGA most years, so hard to get FG% but looks like he shot great except for 65 and 72

62 - (can't find boxscore)
63 - 28, 25, 42, 18, 32, 32 (average: 29.5ppg)
65 - 26, 45, 43, 22, 33 (average: 33.8ppg)
66 - 41, 18, 34, 45, 31, 32, 36 (average: 33.9ppg)
68 - 25, 35, 33, 38, 35, 22 (average: 31.3ppg)
69 - 53, 41, 24, 40, 39, 26, 42 (average: 37.8ppg)
70 - 33, 34, 34, 37, 20, 33, 28 (average: 31.2ppg)
72 - 12, 15, 21, 28, 23, (average: 19.8ppg)
73 - 24, 32, 31, 23, 12, (average: 22.2ppg)

And these came against one of the greatest defensive teams ever literally every Finals. He balled and it really proves, how the rings argument can falter. West led awesome teams who made the Finals every year and then he kicked ass in the Finals, but just kept losing close. In what would should Kobe's 2010 title be more valued than one of West's huge Finals.. I don't know. The guy is basically MJ in the Finals with all those 30, 40 pt+ games and huge averages

Vinsanity420 · Post #92 » by **Vinsanity420** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 12:09 am

Dr Mufasa wrote:...

Just a quick calculation of what was provided on that site

63 Finals - 49 FG% for entire series
65 Finals - 42.6 FG% - Only last 4 games had FGA
66 Finals - No FGA info
68 Finals - Elimination Game Only - 22 points @ 42FG%
69 Finals - Elimination Game Only - 42 points @ 48 FG%
70 Finals - 45 FG% for entire series

Didn't bother past that since he was clearly out of his prime.

Vinsanity420 · Post #93 » by **Vinsanity420** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 12:16 am

On a side note --- 65 Finals included Jerry West going 6 for 27 in the crucial Game 4, where LA went down 1-3. Kobe was making his best imitation of the Logo, 35 years later... in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals. But unlike West, he helped his team in the rebounding department.

Vinsanity420 · Post #94 » by **Vinsanity420** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:02 am

Saying Jerry West was going off like MJ is deceiving - Take pace into consideration - In the 1970 Finals, for example, LA was averaging around 113 a game, while West average slightly over 31 - that's around 27.4% of the points from West. Kobe averaged 28.6 in 2010 while the Lakers averaged slightly over 90 - that's around 31.8% of the points coming from Kobe. Wouldn't be surprising to see Kobe averaging 35 in those 60's finals series... on lower efficiency than West.

GilmoreFan · Post #95 » by **GilmoreFan** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:03 am

First thing I will say is that the realgm slow-mo load problems which have been complained of on the feedback forum are still hampering alot of posters, myself included. Please kick whoever is supposed to be handling this in the head.

To the subject at hand.

I vote Kareem his resume is pretty amazing and his whole resume just makes it better. His finals Mvps are something to think about he was an elite player for a ridiculous amount of time. His Scoring efficiency is what really does it for me. His rebounding sure was not a weakness and he had a strong understanding of the game. He maybe wasnt the best leader but He seemed to play great in the playoffs. Six MVP's thats just ridiculous imagine how hard it is to do that.

Nominate Oscar Robertson

Sorry Tclg, you're not on the voting list.

In case anyone is wondering, it's now Kareem 15, Wilt 2, and Magic 1.

Nominations are Karl Malone 7, West 6, KG 3, Oscar 2 and Lebron 1.

Laimbeer · Post #96 » by **Laimbeer** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:08 am

Comes down to Wilt's statitics vs. Kareem's logevity and titles. For me, Kareem had a greater career.

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: Mikan

shawngoat23 · Post #97 » by **shawngoat23** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:16 am

****, I missed the #2 thread (would have voted for Russell anyway). Still a bit disappointing though because I stuck around for all 100 positions on the last list and for every year of the Retro POY. Is there anyway you can add "(voting ends on X)" to each thread?

Vote: Kareem (over Wilt). Both supreme talents who were incredibly dominant statistically, but I think Kareem simply had a better sense of how to win.

Nominate: Jerry West. I initially typed Oscar Robertson, but only because I thought West was already nominated.

An Unbiased Fan · Post #98 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:34 am

Vinsanity420 wrote:Saying Jerry West was going off like MJ is deceiving - Take pace into consideration - In the 1970 Finals, for example, LA was averaging around 113 a game, while West average slightly over 31 - that's around 27.4% of the points from West. Kobe averaged 28.6 in 2010 while the Lakers averaged slightly over 90 - that's around 31.8% of the points coming from Kobe. Wouldn't be surprising to see Kobe averaging 35 in those 60's finals series... on lower efficiency than West.

You're being way to hard on West. He had to face tougher defenses in the FInals than MJ did. I mean if you really want to nickpick, we could point out MJ's stats against the 96' Sonics(the only great defense he faced in the Finals).

Fencer reregistered · Post #99 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 1:50 am

I agree with the knock on West that he had some massive stinkers of important games. But I wasn't nominating him for "clutchness" anyway.

Vinsanity420 · Post #100 » by **Vinsanity420** » Mon Jul 4, 2011 2:23 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:You're being way to hard on West. He had to face tougher defenses in the FInals than MJ did. I mean if you really want to nickpick, we could point out MJ's stats against the 96' Sonics(the only great defense he faced in the Finals).

Oh, that's only because of his inflated reputation on RealGM. I still think he's relatively clutch and has a case over Oscar, but it's not a clear cut advantage like some people are making it out to be.