Real GM Top 100 List #11

[NO-KG-AI]

Career numbers are fun, but KG was playing big NBA minutes, and making the playoffs at the age where Malone was just starting his college career.

Garnett's offensive numbers are going to drop with age, but he's still going to make a huge impact defensively, even as a broken shell of his former self, something Malone was never able to do.

Keep sticking with the 19 ppg, like that's what KG was doing in all of his good years

[colts18]

Career numbers are fun, but KG was playing big NBA minutes, and making the playoffs at the age where Malone was just starting his college career.

Garnett's offensive numbers are going to drop with age, but he's still going to make a huge impact defensively, even as a broken shell of his former self, something Malone was never able to do.

Keep sticking with the 19 ppg, like that's what KG was doing in all of his good years

It goes both ways, Malone was making the finals and winning MVP's when KG was a 15-9 player. And really the number of seasons don't really impact the comparison because Malone played 45548 RS+PS minutes while KG was 47998, that is a 2450 minute or just 61 games for a 40 MPG player. Playing in an equivalent of an extra 61 games is not why KG declined a lot earlier than Malone.

It's not the 19 PPG that is the problem, it's the 19 PPG on .519 TS% that is. Low scoring plus low efficiency. Guys like Malone and Robinson were higher scoring and low efficiency (though higher than KG). To put that .519 TS% into perspective, Allen Iverson's career TS% is .518. Basically, KG scoring at the efficiency of AI in the playoffs, a guy who was derided by lots of people for his inefficiency.

[mysticbb]

Very true. KG's defense is much much better, but for the most part, he is kind of a Webber 2.0 type player.

If by "Webber 2.0" you mean Chris Webber until 2003, while being more efficient as a scorer, better shooter, better passing (less turnovers), better rebounding and much, much, much better defense, we can find a way to agree here. Garnett's impact offensively exceeds Webber's and defensively we are talking two different universes.

Webber seems to be one of the most overrated players in terms of peak level impact. The guy does not belong into the same discussion like the best PF in Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Nowitzki, Barkley or Pettit. And we can probably find a bunch of other PF more valuable than Chris Webber.

[ronnymac2]

Julius Ervin's title run in 1974 gets underrated. Everybody sees 1976, but he dropped 28/10/5/1/1 on well over 50 percent shooting. I think by around '74, the ABA had caught up with the NBA. So that's two legit individual title runs where Erving proved himself. If I recall correctly, he played like a champ in the '77 Finals as well. If McGinnus doesn't put up the worst star performance in history against Lucas and Walton, Philly might win.

While I think Erving's man defense and outside jumper are suspect, I also think his passing is underrated. He had every pass in the book, from interior passes to kickouts to swing passes to passes from the post. His defense on a team level was that of a borderline co-anchor from the perimeter, which is pretty impressive.

Dr. J definitely complicates things for me.


While I'll be officially nominating Wade, I don't think Pettit is an unreasonable choice. Dude was always near the top of league scoring leaders, rebounding leaders, and MVP choices in his era along with Russell, Wilt, Baylor, West and Robertson. I don't have a problem with those guys being high on the all-time list, so that's amazing company to be in. Pettit was like a combination of Moses Malone and Dirk Nowitzki. He had Dirk's perimeter game (neither the range nor the handles, but the mid-range jumper and effect on spacing) combined with Malone's tenacity on the offensive glass and ability to draw a lot of foul. Plus, he was closer to Dirk than Malone as a passer, which is obviously a compliment.

[therealbig3]

drza's post is really weighing on my mind, I feel compelled to go with KG.

I haven't been convinced for Karl Malone over KG, but what about Moses Malone? Dude was a beast on the boards and could score very well. KG's defense and his passing is just in another universe, though.

Who was the better playoff performer? drza outlined KG's impact in the playoffs, but Moses outplayed Kareem head to head, that's got to count for something.

[ronnymac2]

drza's post is really weighing on my mind, I feel compelled to go with KG.

I haven't been convinced for Karl Malone over KG, but what about Moses Malone? Dude was a beast on the boards and could score very well. KG's defense and his passing is just in another universe, though.

Who was the better playoff performer? drza outlined KG's impact in the playoffs, but Moses outplayed Kareem head to head, that's got to count for something.

Moses dominated a tail-end prime KAJ on the glass. Jabbar still torched him offensively.

Moses Malone never outplayed a prime Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[Laimbeer]

Pettit was like a combination of Moses Malone and Dirk Nowitzki. He had Dirk's perimeter game (neither the range nor the handles, but the mid-range jumper and effect on spacing) combined with Malone's tenacity on the offensive glass and ability to draw a lot of foul. Plus, he was closer to Dirk than Malone as a passer, which is obviously a compliment.

I was planning to vote Pettit in somewhere around Bob Lanier and Dave Cowens. Good big man but I feel like his dominance rising to the #1/#2 guy in the league was about Oscar, Wilt, West not being there yet. Nice face-up jumpshot and toughness and great rebounding for the time, but does this sound like a top 21 player? I feel like if he's around even in the early 70s, even if he wins an MVP there, he's at best he's in that Cowens Reed McAdoo zone of "Ok, top 40-50 big man who won an MVP, but how excited are we really by this guy's career" zone

Facsinating to see that different an opinion from two top drawer posters.

[ronnymac2]

Garnett vs. Robinson is easy for me. Robinson was more individually dangerous in that he could dominate his matchup better. KG's advantage was that he was a solid individual player who was also one of the greatest ever at hurting the other team's plans while helping his own guys- sort of in the mold of Russell and Walton.

The thing is, Robinson was a flawed individual, so when he met certain individual matchups in the playoffs- or worse yet, when entire teams threw different schemes at him- his individual dominance would suffer greatly to the point where he wasn't dominating matchups. Unlike KG, Robinson's game didn't lend itself to helping his teammates out more while hurting the other team outside of what he could produce as an individual.

There is no point in having that kind of player lead your team in the playoffs. That's why Robinson is below just about everybody here.

[An Unbiased Fan]

drza's post is really weighing on my mind, I feel compelled to go with KG.

I haven't been convinced for Karl Malone over KG, but what about Moses Malone? Dude was a beast on the boards and could score very well. KG's defense and his passing is just in another universe, though.

Who was the better playoff performer? drza outlined KG's impact in the playoffs, but Moses outplayed Kareem head to head, that's got to count for something.

Beyond my normal problems with APM stats. I think it's hard to use them in favor for KG, even if you value them, because we don't have APm stats for guys in the 70,80,90's.

So for all we know, Malone could have tremendous APM numbers, Dr. J could be off the charts. On the court, I don't see how KG's APM numbers ever translated into playoff success, or impact. By all accounts, KG's efficiency stumbled in the post-season.

We're talking about guys like West, Oscar, Dr. J, Moses, Barkley, Dirk, who had tangible on court impact. I'm sure their numbers would be high too.

[colts18]

drza's post is really weighing on my mind, I feel compelled to go with KG.

I haven't been convinced for Karl Malone over KG, but what about Moses Malone? Dude was a beast on the boards and could score very well. KG's defense and his passing is just in another universe, though.

Who was the better playoff performer? drza outlined KG's impact in the playoffs, but Moses outplayed Kareem head to head, that's got to count for something.

KG's playoff impact was overrated. AI-like efficiency, lost twice with HCA with the T-Wolves in his peak, 2 playoff series wins in 12 years. Compare that to LeBron who won 8 playoff series and performed better in the postseason than KG. I don't see the KG>LeBron arguments if you use the same standards as you do for KG vs. Malone.

I bet I can go year to year and show Malone had more impact in the postseason than KG did. In 2007, the Kings had a better record than KG with a starting lineup of Bibby/Kevin Martin/Artest/Kenny Thomas/Abdur-Rahim and Brad Miller. Shouldn't Peak KG take his to better than that terrible Kings team?

[Baller 24]

Robinson just being a face-up player hurt him against match-ups, it was evident that many started to replicate a formula against his game, IIRC the Jazz & Malone started it first in the playoffs against the Spurs.

Remember that we're comparing individually who the better player is, and Robinsons doesn't even stack up, he's got glaring flaws, his inability to play back-to-basket low post basketball took a tremendous toll on his success. I mean we're talking about countless playoff series loses JUST because of a glaring flaw in his ability to play or improve upon a certain aspect of his game.

[Fencer reregistered]

I forget whether I've voted yet, but in any case I'm voting for Garnett.


Nominee: It's time for another perimeter player. Let's go with Scottie Pippen.

[MarJJMar]

How can Nash not be nominated here, I see a 2 time MVP getting no respect once again.

Wade over Nash right now? In what universe?

Yeah Miami won a championship coming out of the weak East upsetting Dallas but anyone who thinks that Miami team was actually the best team in the NBA is delusional.

Read the rules and criteria before you disrupt the threads please.

1) No one's saying Miami was the best team.
2) We're determining individual peak play, career play, and overall dominance relative to each players era. Hence, the reason we're not valuing only career play.

That hurts Wade's case even more in a comparison with Steve Nash.

And I don't see how David Robinson can already be in the discussion here. He never was the best player on a championship team, he never won MVP, you could even say he was never the best player on a true title contender.

The Spurs with Robinson never were that close to a championship until Duncan came along.

[colts18]

Robinson just being a face-up player hurt him against match-ups, it was evident that many started to replicate a formula against his game, IIRC the Jazz & Malone started it first in the playoffs against the Spurs.

Remember that we're comparing individually who the better player is, and Robinsons doesn't even stack up, he's got glaring flaws, his inability to play back-to-basket low post basketball took a tremendous toll on his success. I mean we're talking about countless playoff series loses JUST because of a glaring flaw in his ability to play or improve upon a certain aspect of his game.

I don't see how Robinson's style is any less conducive to winning in the playoffs than KG's. I'll ignore the fact Robinson actually won in the playoffs more than KG (6 playoff series to 2 in their primes and 17-10 overall). Even with his face up game, he averaged 7.9 FTA/game in the postseason and he averaged 10.0 FTA/game from 90-98. FTA not only help him, but they help the rest of the team. Compare that to KG who only averaged 4.8 FTA/game. KG was more comparable to John Stockton when it came to creating free points for his team through drawing fouls.

Through age 34:
Garnett: 4.8 FTA/game
Stockton: 4.0 FTA/game

Playoffs:
Garnett: 4.5 FTA/game
Stockton: 4.4 FTA/game

Peak:
04 Garnett: 5.7 FTA/game
90 Stockton: 5.5 FTA/game

You can't win when your star offensive player can't create offense in the clutch because he can't draw fouls or create much offense.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Robinson just being a face-up player hurt him against match-ups, it was evident that many started to replicate a formula against his game, IIRC the Jazz & Malone started it first in the playoffs against the Spurs.

Remember that we're comparing individually who the better player is, and Robinsons doesn't even stack up, he's got glaring flaws, his inability to play back-to-basket low post basketball took a tremendous toll on his success. I mean we're talking about countless playoff series loses JUST because of a glaring flaw in his ability to play or improve upon a certain aspect of his game.

Except, DRob had better regular season & playoff performances than KG did. KG had more issues than DRob did as a 1st option.

Here's how KG vs DRob's TS% stack up....

DRob 91' - 76.0%
DRob 03' - 59.1%
DRob 90' - 58.1%
DRob 96' - 56.9%
KG 01' -56.9%
DRob 99' - 56.3%

KG 08' - 54.2%
KG 03' - 53.9%
DRob 01' - 53.8%
DRob 95' - 53.6%
KG 10' - 53.0%
DRob 93' - 52.9%
KG 02' - 51.4%
KG 04' - 51.3%
KG 98' - 50.0%

KG 97' - 49.7%
DRob 98' - 49.6%
KG 99' - 48.8%
KG 11' - 47.9
DRob 94' - 47.1%
DRob 00' - 46.3%
KG 00' - 44.1%

[colts18]

Robinson just being a face-up player hurt him against match-ups, it was evident that many started to replicate a formula against his game, IIRC the Jazz & Malone started it first in the playoffs against the Spurs.

Remember that we're comparing individually who the better player is, and Robinsons doesn't even stack up, he's got glaring flaws, his inability to play back-to-basket low post basketball took a tremendous toll on his success. I mean we're talking about countless playoff series loses JUST because of a glaring flaw in his ability to play or improve upon a certain aspect of his game.

Except, DRob had better regular season & playoff performances than KG did. KG had more issues than DRob did as a 1st option.

Here's how KG vs DRob's TS% stack up....

DRob 91' - 76.0%
DRob 03' - 59.1%
DRob 90' - 58.1%
DRob 96' - 56.9%
KG 01' -56.9%
DRob 99' - 56.3%

KG 08' - 54.2%
KG 03' - 53.9%
DRob 01' - 53.8%
DRob 95' - 53.6%
KG 10' - 53.0%
DRob 93' - 52.9%
KG 02' - 51.4%
KG 04' - 51.3%
KG 98' - 50.0%

KG 97' - 49.7%
DRob 98' - 49.6%
KG 99' - 48.8%
KG 11' - 47.9
DRob 94' - 47.1%
DRob 00' - 46.3%
KG 00' - 44.1%

Here is how Robinson and KG stack up in playoff PER taking out both of their last 2 playoffs:

Player Season PER ▾
Drob 1995-96 29.1
Drob 1990-91 26.1
Drob 1999-00 25.6
KG 2001-02 25.5
KG 2003-04 25
KG 2002-03 25
KG 2000-01 24.9
Drob 2000-01 24.5
Drob 1989-90 24.3
KG 1998-99 24.1
Drob 1997-98 24.1
Drob 1998-99 23.3
KG 2007-08 23
Drob 1994-95 22.6
Drob 1993-94 22
Drob 1992-93 21.6
KG 1999-00 20.5
KG 1996-97 19.3
KG 1997-98 15.5

So DRob has the top 3, 5 out of top 9, 7 out of top 12, 10 out of top 16.

[colts18]

Robinson just being a face-up player hurt him against match-ups, it was evident that many started to replicate a formula against his game, IIRC the Jazz & Malone started it first in the playoffs against the Spurs.

Remember that we're comparing individually who the better player is, and Robinsons doesn't even stack up, he's got glaring flaws, his inability to play back-to-basket low post basketball took a tremendous toll on his success. I mean we're talking about countless playoff series loses JUST because of a glaring flaw in his ability to play or improve upon a certain aspect of his game.

Except, DRob had better regular season & playoff performances than KG did. KG had more issues than DRob did as a 1st option.

Here's how KG vs DRob's TS% stack up....

DRob 91' - 76.0%
DRob 03' - 59.1%
DRob 90' - 58.1%
DRob 96' - 56.9%
KG 01' -56.9%
DRob 99' - 56.3%

KG 08' - 54.2%
KG 03' - 53.9%
DRob 01' - 53.8%
DRob 95' - 53.6%
KG 10' - 53.0%
DRob 93' - 52.9%
KG 02' - 51.4%
KG 04' - 51.3%
KG 98' - 50.0%

KG 97' - 49.7%
DRob 98' - 49.6%
KG 99' - 48.8%
KG 11' - 47.9
DRob 94' - 47.1%
DRob 00' - 46.3%
KG 00' - 44.1%

Here is how they stack up by Playoff WS/48 taking out their last 2 playoffs though DRob had a .204 WS/48 in his final playoff in 2003 which is better than any of KG's WS/48 except for 1 season.

Player Season ▴ WS/48
KG 2000-01 0.255
Drob 1998-99 0.243
Drob 1990-91 0.234
Drob 1999-00 0.22
Drob 1989-90 0.219
Drob 1995-96 0.214
Drob 2000-01 0.207
KG 2007-08 0.199
Drob 1997-98 0.183
Drob 1994-95 0.176
Drob 1992-93 0.172
KG 2003-04 0.163
KG 2002-03 0.141
KG 1998-99 0.135
KG 2001-02 0.121
Drob 1993-94 0.105
KG 1999-00 0.102
KG 1996-97 0.047
KG 1997-98 -0.002

Drob has 6 out of the top 7, 9 out of top 11, and 10 out of top 16. Once again DRob has more impact in the playoffs.

Playoff series wins:
DRob 90-98: 6
KG 95-07: 2

DRob Career: 17
KG Career: 10

The "he drops off more in the playoffs" argument might be more disingenious than using HCA or JordanBulls helped a struggling franchise win argument. Who cares who dropped off more in the playoffs when that played better in the postseason. Last time I checked we are voting on players impact, not on who dropped the least.

[mysticbb]

I bet I can go year to year and show Malone had more impact in the postseason than KG did. In 2007, the Kings had a better record than KG with a starting lineup of Bibby/Kevin Martin/Artest/Kenny Thomas/Abdur-Rahim and Brad Miller. Shouldn't Peak KG take his to better than that terrible Kings team?

Honestly, I have no idea what Malone's playoff impact has to do with the Kings anno 2007, but I know one thing for sure: Please, stop try to evaluate rosters, because I doubt you will achieve any good with that. The lineup Miller-Thomas/Abdur-Rahim-Artest-Martin-Bibby is a pretty good lineup. We have spacing, passing, we have shooting, we have even some sort of defense, a team like that can make the playoffs, if it is surrounded with the right supporting cast. In 2007 when the Kings were able to throw out a lineup with Bibby-Artest-Miller they ended up with +4.7 per 48 minutes. Unfortunately due to injury problems for Miller and Artest such a lineup only played 1055 minutes, usually we can expect such lineups getting nearly half the time. In the remaining minutes when they didn't have the 3-man-unit Bibby-Artest-Miller on the court, the Kings got outscored by 4.1 per 48 minutes. That team wasn't terrible, because they had bad players (and especially those you mentioned weren't terrible).

Garnett's Timberwolves without him on the court got outscored by nearly 15 points per 48 minutes. In the 6 games he missed they managed to lose in average by 19.1 points. What is Garnett supposed to do with that kind of support? They played 15 points worse than average without him, that is terrible. That this team didn't win just 10 games, like such teams are doing it, is more a testament to Garnett's great impact.

[blowmyrooster]

I know I'm not in this but it's a travesty if Malone gets 11th...

The guy talent-wise isn't even better than Barkley or KG...

Should be Oscar here but w/e's...

[Baller 24]

Except, DRob had better regular season & playoff performances than KG did. KG had more issues than DRob did as a 1st option.

Here's how KG vs DRob's TS% stack up....

DRob 91' - 76.0%
DRob 03' - 59.1%
DRob 90' - 58.1%
DRob 96' - 56.9%
KG 01' -56.9%
DRob 99' - 56.3%

KG 08' - 54.2%
KG 03' - 53.9%
DRob 01' - 53.8%
DRob 95' - 53.6%
KG 10' - 53.0%
DRob 93' - 52.9%
KG 02' - 51.4%
KG 04' - 51.3%
KG 98' - 50.0%

KG 97' - 49.7%
DRob 98' - 49.6%
KG 99' - 48.8%
KG 11' - 47.9
DRob 94' - 47.1%
DRob 00' - 46.3%
KG 00' - 44.1%

Huh? When did I compare the two again in my initial post about Robinson? Do you have an agenda against Garnett or something? Because in no way in my original statement did I compare the two.

And note, that I wasn't even talking about statistics, but more aside from just general way their skills stack up and how Robinson plays the game of basketball.

Robinson had all the stats in the world, but when it came to a skill-set back-to-basket game it was a glaring offensive flaw. Already stated that Malone in '94 completely exploited his to play and teams began to strictly catch on.

Where in the '95 WCF run it was evident that those teams started to take advantage of his capability of playing a fantastic face-up game, but teams with tall above average to great defensive centers started to take advantage of that---just look at how he did against Mutombo in that run against the Nuggets, or Cambell/Divac against the Lakers, maybe even Olajuwon against the Rockets who completely exploited those abilities. They wouldn't have even gotten that far if it weren’t for Elliot & Avery.

As for Garnett, are you saying that you use TS% to rank players on an all-time list? Shouldn't like Shaq & Wilt be at the time of the list then? I'm not understanding this aspect. Garnett didn't have a GLARING FLAW in his offensive game like Robinson did.

He played back-to-basket basketball perfectly fine, created and facilitated an entire offensive scheme for almost a decade playing that style in both the low & high post. I don't see a weakness in his game, remember, you can't measure a weakness based on a statistic, just watch them play, you'll notice how Robinson's serious flaw, it's glaring, and obvious. Not using a statistic to compare the two at all. I think this has been stated in previous threads, not just me but multiple individuals in this project have stated the exact same flaw.


BTW, if you're going to compare playoff-drops than compare the two at their respective games, Garnett's career TS% is .549, his career playoff TS% is .519, that's a 3% drop. Robinson for his career has a TS% of .583, for his playoff career TS% is .547, that's a 3.6% drop. It's unfair to compare them the way you are.