Post#87 » by drza » Sun Aug 7, 2011 4:09 am
Re: Pippen vs Drexler
There is a general basketball truism that big men can have a big defensive impact that the box scores can't catch, and that point guards can have a big offensive impact that the box scores might miss. We've discussed these types of effects with players like Russell, Walton (RPoY project), Garnett, Magic, Robertson and Nash and were able to demonstrate them quantitatively in some way. I feel like Scottie Pippen, though he played small forward, legitimately had both a point guard effect on offense and a big-man-defender effect on defense. Now, that impact may have been a bit watered down compared to All-time greats like the ones that I mentioned, but still, the point is that I think he qualifies for BOTH of those impacts that aren't easily captured by the boxes. Then, he compounded that by playing in the generation before +/- stats came available and only missing more than 10 games in a season one time before he turned 35. As such, it is very difficult to get a quantitative handle on his impact.
That said, though, just because I can't easily quantify his impact doesn't mean that it wasn't there. I might not be able to put an exact number on his defensive prowess, for example, but from watching him I was quite confident that he was probably the best wing defender that I've ever seen. And that he had a huge help-defense impact, which isn't generally associated with a wing defender. And that he was also an excellent rebounder for his position. Then, when I note some qualitative trends...such as that the Bulls were a top-7 defense every season between 1993 and 1996 (7th, 6th, 2nd, 1st) and the only player to start on all 4 of those teams was Pippen. To me, I have no issue giving Pippen a huge non-boxscore defensive boost when compared to someone like Drexler. That it's not just a case of judging them on their offense and then adding a bit to Pippen's ledger, but that on a fundamental level Pippen's defense gives him a big impact advantage at that end of the court despite the fact that Drexler wasn't a bad defender himself.
Then, on offense, it isn't as clear. During that same '93 - 96 stretch, the Bulls' offense ranked 2nd (w/ Jordan), 14th (no Jordan), 10th (no Jordan until end), and 1st (w/ Jordan). So, unlike on defense, on offense the Bulls clearly suffered without MJ. But on the other hand...is that really damning to Pippen as an elite offensive player? That stretch proves the no-duh assertion that MJ had a monster impact on the Bulls' offense. But that doesn't, of itself, mean that Pippen didn't. And when I look at the offensive players still on the Bulls during '94 and '95...BJ Armstrong was purely a shooter, Ho Grant a garbageman, Purdue/Cartright lesser garbagemen, and Harper (at that stage of his career)/Meyers were just defensive role players. Kukoc was a reasonable shot creator for a 6th man, but nothing special. For the most part, then, this was an offense where Pippen was for all intents and purposes the only shot creator for both himself and his teammates and also the leading scorer. The fact that he led that offense to above-average offensive ratings is of itself an accomplishment and testament to the fact that he was a very strong offensive player.
Drexler was obviously a more accomplished scorer than Pippen, and he also got his fair share of assists. But I never got the feeling that he was the one running the show on offense the way that Pippen often was for the Bulls. Plus, despite having generally more talented offensive teammates than the '94 and '95 Bulls gave to Pippen, I saw a few 9th, 10th, 14th type offensive rankings for the late 80s/early 90s Blazers that Drexler led. Now yes, there were also some top-ranked Blazer offenses as well, just like there were some top ranked Bulls offenses that Pippen played on when Jordan was around. But my point is, I'm not quite as willing as RonnieMac to give Drexler a definite offensive advantage over Pippen. I'm not quite as sold on the "offensive constant" theory, or at least that Drexler fit it in a way that Pippen didn't. I would rather have Drexler attacking the basket to score over Pippen, but if I needed someone to run my offense I'd much rather it be Scottie.
As such, when I look at overall impact, I do believe that Pippen's was likely larger. I'd take him on defense hands down, and on offense I think it's a much closer matchup. In the end, I'd rather have Pippen.
