#20 Highest Peak of All Time (Nash '05 wins)

[Dr Positivity]

Well I hope you (and the people who PMed saying they'd take a break) are still planning on voting. We need every vote we can get.

The threads have definitely had a degree of animosity I haven't liked, almost since the start. I do understand where some of the negativity is coming from - the "there wasn't enough discussion about this player" complaints and other attempts to use previous votes and ATL ranks to spin present votes towards desired results, have definitely rubbed me the wrong way. But I'd like the discussion to be on the players in the mix in this thread as much as possible. Any previous votes are basically sunk costs, there's no use dwelling on them

However for the sake of the project, the more respect and professionalism people treat each other's arguments with, the better overall, I would think. I think we are capable of treating this like an intellectual/academic discussion and not a schoolyard fight

[lorak]

So people, who created negativity by using words like "asylum" to describe other voters, and who didn't like results and complain for a while, now take break because they don't like negativity and project results. Maturity...


Anyway, Doc, here are with/without for West I have. [url](source: http://basketballwins.blogspot.com/2012 ... mpact.html[/url]Of course pace is unknown as well as strength of opponents so these numbers are only team PPG and opponents PPG unadjusted for SOS.

'63 (25 games missed)
with: 117.5 PPG, 112.2 opp PPG
w/o: 111.1 PPG, 112.8 opp PPG

'67 (15 games missed)
with: 121.1 PPG, 120.0 opp PPG
w/o: 116.6 PPG, 121.2 PPG

'68 (31 games missed)
with: 125.2 PPG, 116.3 opp PPG
w/o: 114.6 PPG, 114.4 opp PPG

'69 (21 games missed)
with: 113.5 PPG, 108.0 opp PPG
w/o: 108.7 PPG, 108.4 opp PPG

So his impact is very good (+6.4, +4.5, +10.6 and +4.8) on offense (as expected) and small (-0.6, -1.2, +1.9, -0.4) on defense (also as expected and keep in mind that his defensive impact seems to be negative during '68 season you are voting). Sure, pace, strength of opponents or other Lakers players missed games affected these results, but they are pretty consistent from season to season, so I see no reason to not believe in what they show. And keep in mind that if we want to argue that pace is big factor here (so that Lakers with West played faster) and that’s the reason why his defensive impact seems to be so small or negative (’68), then also West’s offensive impact would be smaller in reality.

[Doctor MJ]

Well I hope you (and the people who PMed saying they'd take a break) are still planning on voting. We need every vote we can get.

I'll still be voting, and I'll explain why I made the decision, and I'll probably clarify depending on how the request for clarification comes, but I'm going to take a break from anything resembling an attack on others.

[Doctor MJ]

So people, who created negativity by using words like "asylum" to describe other voters, and who didn't like results and complain for a while, now take break because they don't like negativity and project results. Maturity...

Okay, no I'm not going to let you take that post-ceasefire shot without a counterpoint dude. I'm not going to defend the "asylum" comment that was made, but before that ever happened YOU were a part of what was driving us there.

My initial forays into telling people their voting trends were disconcerting and giving reasons were done to prevent the exact type of bogey you eventually made in your strategic voting with LeBron. Instead of people listening, they started getting hostile, and the fact that we eventually saw an indisputable example of what I was warning people about didn't seem to matter.

The poster who made the "asylum" remark, ElGee, he made it AFTER you and other posters were specifically accusing him of intellectual dishonesty over a series of posts and thread. Chronology is kind of important there. It was a hot headed thing for him to say, but people tend to get hot headed when their integrity is under attack.

I also understand that people tend to get hot headed when they feel like they are being condescended to, and that ElGee certainly makes people feel that way, as do I.

And folks, he's not even the one who sent the PM that made me start my post talking about PMs. If you're thinking this is just me having ElGee's back, it's not. Whenever project get negative, we lose people. Simple as that. If it stops being fun, the people who aren't fired up by the negativity, tune out.

Bottom line: You are part of this problem too dude, so no, you don't get to mock the maturity of the other people involved because they are tired of dealing with the negativity you are a part of. The problem with tone right now involves probably most of the people posting in these thread. All of us need to back up and reflect.

I'm trying to make clear that that's what I intend to do, and that I intend to change my behavior, that is not meant as an acknowledgment that I am the problem here, it's meant to indicate that I just realize I"m part of the problem, and it's meant to signal to everyone else that they need to check themselves too, not for them to gloat.

[Doctor MJ]

Anyway, Doc, here are with/without for West I have. [url](source: http://basketballwins.blogspot.com/2012 ... mpact.html[/url]Of course pace is unknown as well as strength of opponents so these numbers are only team PPG and opponents PPG unadjusted for SOS.

'63 (25 games missed)
with: 117.5 PPG, 112.2 opp PPG
w/o: 111.1 PPG, 112.8 opp PPG

'67 (15 games missed)
with: 121.1 PPG, 120.0 opp PPG
w/o: 116.6 PPG, 121.2 PPG

'68 (31 games missed)
with: 125.2 PPG, 116.3 opp PPG
w/o: 114.6 PPG, 114.4 opp PPG

'69 (21 games missed)
with: 113.5 PPG, 108.0 opp PPG
w/o: 108.7 PPG, 108.4 opp PPG

So his impact is very good (+6.4, +4.5, +10.6 and +4.8) on offense (as expected) and small (-0.6, -1.2, +1.9, -0.4) on defense (also as expected and keep in mind that his defensive impact seems to be negative during '68 season you are voting). Sure, pace, strength of opponents or other Lakers players missed games affected these results, but they are pretty consistent from season to season, so I see no reason to not believe in what they show. And keep in mind that if we want to argue that pace is big factor here (so that Lakers with West played faster) and that’s the reason why his defensive impact seems to be so small or negative (’68), then also West’s offensive impact would be smaller in reality.

Thank you DS. I'll be wanting to analyze this more.

[bastillon]

Doc, I'm not gonna be offended by anything you say so you can respond to my post about Oscar vs West without any limitations. as a matter of fact I'd rather receive a negative response than no response at all. I'm really tired against this anti-Oscar campaign, he's getting mentioned time after time as a guy who shouldn't have been voted in that early and his voters clearly did not show any signs of feeling this way. I feel I've made it pretty clear West's followers didn't really provide any counter-arguments for why Oscar got voted in (playoffs, superior offense, health, irrelevant defensive edge since both had negligible impact on team D). Oscar to me ranks solidly ahead of West and I showed you why. now what I expect is some kind of a response, not "back off" attitude. you asked if I was seriously calling you out for responding to another post first and yet you didn't bother to respond at all. I would expect you'd make response after calling me out for being sarcasting about you ignoring me. you were very surprised I called you out for this but it turns out you did ignore me after all, or at least so it seems. until Oscar is being brought up I know I'm not backing off from any legitimate debate. so anybody who attacks that selection may as well expect the same arguments being brought up.

[C-izMe]

Just thought of two players I completely forgot that should be in the next batch of players. Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood (a rookie at that), and Artis Gilmore. All three dominated the ABA, fell off in the NBA (were still great) and were forgotten by time.

[ardee]

Just thought of two players I completely forgot that should be in the next batch of players. Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood (a rookie at that), and Artis Gilmore. All three dominated the ABA, fell off in the NBA (were still great) and were forgotten by time.

Gilmore vs. Howard is an interesting debate.

[C-izMe]

Just thought of two players I completely forgot that should be in the next batch of players. Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood (a rookie at that), and Artis Gilmore. All three dominated the ABA, fell off in the NBA (were still great) and were forgotten by time.

Gilmore vs. Howard is an interesting debate.

Don't forget Zo in that too. All three are definetly even IMO and it'll be a nice debate when it comes up 4-6 threads from now.


Also if someone can post a website with old boxscores that'll be appreciated a lot.

[colts18]

I'm leaning Nash. But I'm not sure if 05, 06 or 07 Nash is his prime. People are sleeping on 06 but he was an MVP and made the WCF without Amare and no big men.

[ardee]

Just thought of two players I completely forgot that should be in the next batch of players. Connie Hawkins, Spencer Haywood (a rookie at that), and Artis Gilmore. All three dominated the ABA, fell off in the NBA (were still great) and were forgotten by time.

Gilmore vs. Howard is an interesting debate.

Don't forget Zo in that too. All three are definetly even IMO and it'll be a nice debate when it comes up 4-6 threads from now.


Also if someone can post a website with old boxscores that'll be appreciated a lot.

Every Russell era game: http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores

Every Finals game prior to 1986: http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/home.htm

Sadly there is no source similar to BBR that has ALL games prior to '86.

Although I'm pretty sure the Regul8or has pretty much any significant box score values you need somewhere in that vault of his

[therealbig3]

IMO, D12 is closer to Ewing and D-Rob in terms of peak than he is to Gilmore or Zo. I don't have those two until a little bit later. D12 is coming up soon for me.

[C-izMe]

Thank you for that Ardee.

[C-izMe]

IMO, D12 is closer to Ewing and D-Rob in terms of peak than he is to Gilmore or Zo. I don't have those two until a little bit later. D12 is coming up soon for me.

Here's a post I made in a thread a short time ago:

Here is the pro Zo argument:
His best year is just as good as Dwight's best year (IMO). It also happened to be Zo's last year before the injury.
Dwight in 11 averaged 22.9/14.1/1.4/1.4/2.4 (1.9stl%, 4.9blk%) on 61.6TS.

Zo in 00 averaged 21.7/9.5/1.6/0.5/3.7 (higher per minute scoring than Dwight, less turnovers by a decent margin considering the increase in playmaking (0.8stl%, 7.8blk%) on 59.6TS (the equivalent to 61.9 in 2011; Zo had a higher ORTG than Dwight relative to league average).
So according to the numbers and most personal accounts Zo is the better offensive player, Dwight the better rebounder, and I personally believe they are equal defenders. I take prime Zo over Dwight by the slimmest of margins.

Zo also had his best regular season and best post season the same year (he averaged 21.5/10/1.5 on 54TS including a hard fought 7 game series against the Knicks).

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '83 Moses Malone

[therealbig3]

The votes so far:

03 Tracy McGrady - 2 (therealbig3, C-izMe)

05 Steve Nash - 2 (Dr Positivity, DavidStern)

83 Moses Malone - 2 (JordansBulls, PTB Fan)

68 Jerry West - 1 (ardee)

[therealbig3]

Lots of debate on Moses this time around, but why should he go over Nash or T-Mac or West (these seem to be his biggest competitors at this point)?

I haven't been too convinced by the pro-Moses arguments, even though they were great posts and got me to think about it more. Overall though, I still see an offense-first big man with questionable defense, which will always raise red flags for me. If I want offense, I'll go with a perimeter player (Nash/T-Mac/West).

I'd also be open to switching to West if it comes down to it, but I'm still pulling for T-Mac.

For the Nash supporters: Why didn't his offensive dominance get him voted in earlier? As in, one of the reasons used for him is that "T-Mac and West are primarily offense-first players, and Nash is better offensively, so he should go"...why didn't this argument apply to Erving/Oscar/Wade/Kobe? I mean, it's actually been re-iterated a few times that Wade and Kobe from the RAPM data we have don't have much defensive impact at all, and they're clearly worse offensively.

This comes back to my stance regarding T-Mac vs Wade and Kobe I guess...I just don't see any meaningful separation between the three, so I'm confused why a pro-Nash argument vaults him over T-Mac, but not over Wade and Kobe.

[Doctor MJ]

Doc, I'm not gonna be offended by anything you say so you can respond to my post about Oscar vs West without any limitations. as a matter of fact I'd rather receive a negative response than no response at all. I'm really tired against this anti-Oscar campaign, he's getting mentioned time after time as a guy who shouldn't have been voted in that early and his voters clearly did not show any signs of feeling this way. I feel I've made it pretty clear West's followers didn't really provide any counter-arguments for why Oscar got voted in (playoffs, superior offense, health, irrelevant defensive edge since both had negligible impact on team D). Oscar to me ranks solidly ahead of West and I showed you why. now what I expect is some kind of a response, not "back off" attitude. you asked if I was seriously calling you out for responding to another post first and yet you didn't bother to respond at all. I would expect you'd make response after calling me out for being sarcasting about you ignoring me. you were very surprised I called you out for this but it turns out you did ignore me after all, or at least so it seems. until Oscar is being brought up I know I'm not backing off from any legitimate debate. so anybody who attacks that selection may as well expect the same arguments being brought up.

For now, you're just going to have to accept my mea culpa. If you want specifics:

Me asserting that certain conversation hadn't happened, when in fact, at least some of it had, is a pretty annoying thing to do. I get annoyed when others jump into conversations I'm already having assuming they know it all, I deserve to eat crow for doing it myself.

I knew I'd been busy and hadn't read every post of the project, but I overestimated my ability to keep a pulse on everything, and as a result I underestimated the posters who I wrongly took issue with.

And this relates to my penance here: It's not just that I want to annoy other people less, it's a recognition that if I can't give more focus to this project right now, i need to stop acting like I know it all, because I clearly don't.

We'll debate Oscar vs West more in the future, heck maybe I'll get drawn back into quickly, but as others have pointed out, it shouldn't have to be central to comparing West to other players, and I don't like where me pushing it back into prominence has led us.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lots of debate on Moses this time around, but why should he go over Nash or T-Mac or West (these seem to be his biggest competitors at this point)?

I haven't been too convinced by the pro-Moses arguments, even though they were great posts and got me to think about it more. Overall though, I still see an offense-first big man with questionable defense, which will always raise red flags for me. If I want offense, I'll go with a perimeter player (Nash/T-Mac/West).

I think the key with Moses, is that he brings elite rebounding in addition to offense. The impact of 7-9 extra possessions a game is being overlooked a bit.

I also think people tend to forget that Moses won MVP in 1982, back in Houston. So we have a player winning MVP in back2back years, on two completely differing teams. In 1981 he took that Houston team to the Finals. So his impact was definitely being felt in a big way.

For reflection, here is where the other guys ranked in the RPOY during their peak years.

1983 Moses - #1 (1.000)
2005 Nash - #2
1966 West - #3
2003 Tmac - #3

Moses was #1 in both 82 & 83 over the likes of Magic, Bird, Dr. J, KAJ. So we're talking about a fairly rare type of peak.

Nash was #2 behind Duncan. Though I would say the competition that season was very thin.

West was #3, but behind the likes of Prime Wilt/Russell.

Tmac was 3rd behind Duncan/KG.

Here are the only players in history to win back2back MVPs and RPOY in the same years.

Russell
Wilt
KAJ
Bird
MJ
Lebron
^
Moses is amongst these guys, and again, did it on two completely different squads. When we talk about "portability", I wonder how that factors in.

Personally, I think Moses was Top 10 worthy. I think 1966 West vs 1993 Barkley is a great debate, though I lean towards West. But I have both under Moses when it comes to peak

[JordansBulls]

The votes so far:

03 Tracy McGrady - 2 (therealbig3, C-izMe)

05 Steve Nash - 2 (Dr Positivity, DavidStern)

83 Moses Malone - 2 (JordansBulls, PTB Fan)

68 Jerry West - 1 (ardee)

I'm switching my vote to 2003 Mcgrady if a tiebreaker is needed.