The case for LeBron 2009 as the GOAT peak

[An Unbiased Fan]

So when Kobe shoot's 4-12 the whole team is coasting, but when Lebron puts up a monster series and hits a buzzer beater he doesn't know how to close out a game or he's mentally weak??...gotcha . Man Kobe should have more sub-par shooting performances, so he wouldn't be deemed a selfish player who doesn't care about the team.And again I just proved my point right NOT YOURS because Lebron performed better than Kobe in the RS and PS by all metrics except the media's narrative. Carried a garbage team to the ECF that had no business being there. Lebron was the best player in 2009

That game was over by the 1st quarter. Kobe had 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 steals in only 33 mins of that game. It's beyond ridiculous to look at that 4-12 as anything since it was a complete blowout early in the game.

[coolnerd88]

He did, explain to me where they all are after he left??

What does that matter, FOR THAT YEAR they came together and accomplish something pretty good.

Lebron played 1 vs 5 ?

Lebron d'ed everyone up and took everyone to the basket right?

by the way want to know the Magic's starting 5

Rafer Alston
Courtney lee
Rashard Lewis
Hedo Turkuglo
Dwight Howard

Was Dwight Howard better that year? because Lebron's team was on par with that by the way......where's Dwight's cast of misfits?


Two can play the game you just tried to play..no one does it alone, Lebron absolutely should have made the finals that year and he didn't get it done PERIOD

[An Unbiased Fan]

So Kobe going 34/6/6 on 63% TS, and great defense is just a side note?

Not a side note but it is worse numbers then what Lebron put up against the Magic.
Also great defense? Kobe had an average DRTG of 113 against Denver.

If anything it appears Lebron played better defense in his ECF series then Kobe did.

LOL, ok you can't be serious at this point.

First, you reference individual DRtg....

Second, Bron not guarding Lewis is what cost them the series to begin with. And yet you want to claim he played better D than Kobe who was checking everyone from Billups, Smith, Melo?

Wow!

[JulesWinnfield]

What we saw in that game 7 was what we see in every game 7 Kobe/Pau have played together. Pau carrying Kobe home, best Laker on the floor in all 3 of them they've played as a duo. It's nice playing with one of the best bigs in the sport. Certainly preferable to Mo williams id say. There are about 5 Lakers who LA would have never entertained dealing for Mo

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron is a much better player than he was in 09, mentally and skill wise

There is no excuse for them losing to the Magic with RAFER ALSTON aka SKIP TO MY LOU as they're starting point...not only that he had a good series....................not only that Rashad Lewis KILLED them that series and Lebron wouldn't even guard him. That would not happen last season or this season. So lets stop, I'm a Heat fan but this thread is ridiculous on both sides

This is exactly my point. Lebron is clearly better since 2012, than he was in 2009. I would say the same thing to those who think Kobe's peak was 2001.

[An Unbiased Fan]

What we saw in that game 7 was what we see in every game 7 Kobe/Pau have played together. Pau carrying Kobe home, best Laker on the floor in all 3 of them they've played as a duo. It's nice playing with one of the best bigs in the sport. Certainly preferable to Mo williams id say. There are about 5 Lakers who LA would have never entertained dealing for Mo

Here's the play by play of the game: http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70LAL.html

Pau scored 8 point sin garbage time with LA up by 20+ in the 4th. The game was over by the 1st quarter.

[Not Bias]

So when Kobe shoot's 4-12 the whole team is coasting, but when Lebron puts up a monster series and hits a buzzer beater he doesn't know how to close out a game or he's mentally weak??...gotcha . Man Kobe should have more sub-par shooting performances, so he wouldn't be deemed a selfish player who doesn't care about the team.And again I just proved my point right NOT YOURS because Lebron performed better than Kobe in the RS and PS by all metrics except the media's narrative. Carried a garbage team to the ECF that had no business being there. Lebron was the best player in 2009

That game was over by the 1st quarter. Kobe had 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 steals in only 33 mins of that game. It's beyond ridiculous to look at that 4-12 as anything since it was a complete blowout early in the game.

Okay so Kobe had a great team you just proved my point??

[JulesWinnfield]

What we saw in that game 7 was what we see in every game 7 Kobe/Pau have played together. Pau carrying Kobe home, best Laker on the floor in all 3 of them they've played as a duo. It's nice playing with one of the best bigs in the sport. Certainly preferable to Mo williams id say. There are about 5 Lakers who LA would have never entertained dealing for Mo

Here's the play by play of the game: http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70LAL.html

Pau scored 8 point sin garbage time with LA up by 20+ in the 4th. The game was over by the 1st quarter.

Pau had the bigger impact in the first quarter too, he also had 18 boards in the game. But thats not even the point.... under what circumstances are the 2009 Cavs opening up a lead like that in a big game getting so little from LeBron? It's not happening. For all the glory you put on the 09 Cavs because of their SRS rating, they got outscored by 6.2 per 100 possessions with him off the floor. He had to be God like to make that franchise relevant as late as the month of May, and he most often was

[Rasho_libre]

Stop comparing lebron to jordan - lite. "Mental" game my ass. This guy ha been historically bad in game 7. Has some of the worst percentages in close out situations. Suck at literally all advanced stats. Get piggy backed to 3 titles. Get saved by gasol and superior supporting casts. This guy is literally a dumb downed version of mj. When was the last time he killed it in a game 7 or elimination game. And were talking about mental strength. Kobe is one of the mentally weakest players ive ever seen. Doesnt play d, cant even get a team with 4 future hof to a playoff berth. Thats the definition of mental weakess

[Not Bias]

Stop comparing lebron to jordan - lite. "Mental" game my ass. This guy ha been historically bad in game 7. Has some of the worst percentages in close out situations. Suck at literally all advanced stats. Get piggy backed to 3 titles. Get saved by gasol and superior supporting casts. This guy is literally a dumb downed version of mj. When was the last time he killed it in a game 7 or elimination game. And were talking about mental strength. Kobe is one of the mentally weakest players ive ever seen. Doesnt play d, cant even get a team with 4 future hof to a playoff berth. Thats the definition of mental weakess

You sure as hell went overboard on this post!!

[kaulkhara15]

Stop comparing lebron to jordan - lite. "Mental" game my ass. This guy ha been historically bad in game 7. Has some of the worst percentages in close out situations. Suck at literally all advanced stats. Get piggy backed to 3 titles. Get saved by gasol and superior supporting casts. This guy is literally a dumb downed version of mj. When was the last time he killed it in a game 7 or elimination game. And were talking about mental strength. Kobe is one of the mentally weakest players ive ever seen. Doesnt play d, cant even get a team with 4 future hof to a playoff berth. Thats the definition of mental weakess

[therealbig3]

Whenever LeBron switched over to Lewis, he actually contained him pretty well...but Hedo would go off whenever LeBron was guarding Lewis. LeBron defended Hedo for most of the series, and if you check his numbers, LeBron shut him down.

Anyway, I actually agree that LeBron wasn't having his typical defensive impact in that series, but he more than made up for it with his offensive explosion. And the Magic were an elite defensive team that year...the Nuggets were good, but weren't as good as the Magic. LeBron's series was more impressive.

There's massive reaching going on to try and prop up Kobe over LeBron. LeBron has been inarguably better for the last 5 years.

[Dupp]

It was because mike brown made lebron at the point guard position to allow him to help off onto howard but it didnt work at all. They knocked down all their open shots off help and we got killed defensively at every position. West who is a good defender struggled on hedo who was too big for him. Made any entry pass he wanted. Our defensive plan was an abortion. Thoroughly out coached plus dwight was too much to handle.

[MaliBrah]

It was because mike brown made lebron at the point guard position to allow him to help off onto howard but it didnt work at all. They knocked down all their open shots off help and we got killed defensively at every position. West who is a good defender struggled on hedo who was too big for him. Made any entry pass he wanted. Our defensive plan was an abortion. Thoroughly out coached plus dwight was too much to handle.

this , the magic we're just a terrible matchup for the undersized cavs and it didn't help that mo williams was M.I.A except for that inbound to lebron's game winner

[Rasho_libre]

Stop comparing lebron to jordan - lite. "Mental" game my ass. This guy ha been historically bad in game 7. Has some of the worst percentages in close out situations. Suck at literally all advanced stats. Get piggy backed to 3 titles. Get saved by gasol and superior supporting casts. This guy is literally a dumb downed version of mj. When was the last time he killed it in a game 7 or elimination game. And were talking about mental strength. Kobe is one of the mentally weakest players ive ever seen. Doesnt play d, cant even get a team with 4 future hof to a playoff berth. Thats the definition of mental weakess

You sure as hell went overboard on this post!!

No i didnt. I am narrating a situation against kobes mythological mental toughness. Just like some cats (skip bayless) narrarate for his for mental toughness. All to get the second of mj. Too bad hes more iverson than mj

[Not Bias]

Stop comparing lebron to jordan - lite. "Mental" game my ass. This guy ha been historically bad in game 7. Has some of the worst percentages in close out situations. Suck at literally all advanced stats. Get piggy backed to 3 titles. Get saved by gasol and superior supporting casts. This guy is literally a dumb downed version of mj. When was the last time he killed it in a game 7 or elimination game. And were talking about mental strength. Kobe is one of the mentally weakest players ive ever seen. Doesnt play d, cant even get a team with 4 future hof to a playoff berth. Thats the definition of mental weakess

You sure as hell went overboard on this post!!

No i didnt. I am narrating a situation against kobes mythological mental toughness. Just like some cats (skip bayless) narrarate for his for mental toughness. All to get the second of mj. Too bad hes more iverson than mj

Yeah you did, you can break down any all-time great's flaws and question their legacy. You just cherry picked Kobe's flaws and just went along with it. And no Kobe is not closer to Iverson than MJ, that is absolute disrespect to Kobe's legacy. Mj had his failures but just because he had those disappointments do we question him for it?? Absolutely not and we shouldn't for Kobe either! He's accomplished way too much or way too long for him ever to be deemed more Iverson rather than MJ.

[Rasho_libre]

What's wrong with iverson? Kobe is nothing like MJ aside from aesthetics. My post wasn't to downplay Kobe. I'm just showing narrative that others use to downplay others to prove Kobe Stan's wrong. Mental toughness, show me proof of this "mental toughness". It's not any different from wade, dirk, lbj and any other highly competitive star of this era. We had Stan's talking about how competitive Kobe is because he tried his butt off to lock down lbj in the all star game. Where is that d in their h2h match ups in games that count. I see meta on lbj at the end of games but lbj on Kobe. Listen at the end of the day we all know where Kobe's legacy is I have him ranked 10th all time in my list if he was to stop playing today. I watched all of Jordan play. Trust me Kobe is nothing like him. Jordan bbal iq was a totally different level.

[Gregoire]

Top goat peaks:
Jordan 90-91
Shaq 00 /Wilt 67 and maybe Lebron 2013 (if he will be better in the playoffs and will win)
lebron 2009 was worse than current version and he didnt win.

[Rasho_libre]

Top goat peaks:
Jordan 90-91
Shaq 00 /Wilt 67 and maybe Lebron 2013 (if he will be better in the playoffs and will win)
lebron 2009 was worse than current version and he didnt win.

I agree top goat peaks are exactly in no particular order.

Jordan 91
Shaq 00
Wilt 67
Lebron 13 only of he wins the title

09 Lebron and 88 Jordan honourable mention. Both guys were at athletic peaks at that time but not as good as their championship versions overall.

[CKRT]

Browsing through this thread is there some sort of espn first take role playing game going on here? Like LARPING for sports analyst fans.

This is seriously amazing. It's blowing my mind.