Shaq vs Hakeem 1995 finals (H2H Statistical breakdown)

[Euroballer]

Once again the raw boxscore is exposed as near worthless.

[thekdog34]

Hakeem was a postive in +/- every game and Shaq negative in every game. So while the box score might look close (with still an edge for Hakeem) I'd argue the impact from Hakeem was much larger.]

Did you read the OP. That is wrong

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

EDIT: I made an error, the below are the margins of victory/loss

I'm going by the +/- BREF posted since they don't have on/off.

Shaq +/-
Game 1: -2
Game 2: -11
Game 3: -3
Game 4: -12


Hakeem +/-
Game 1: +2
Game 2: +11
Game 3: +3
Game 4: +12

They averaged over 40 minutes per game.

[colts18]

Hakeem was a postive in +/- every game and Shaq negative in every game. So while the box score might look close (with still an edge for Hakeem) I'd argue the impact from Hakeem was much larger.]

Did you read the OP. That is wrong

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

I'm going by the +/- BREF posted since they don't have on/off.

Shaq +/-
Game 1: -2
Game 2: -11
Game 3: -3
Game 4: -12


Hakeem +/-
Game 1: +2
Game 2: +11
Game 3: +3
Game 4: +12

They averaged over 40 minutes per game.

Thats the scoring margin of the game, not the plus/minus.

[thekdog34]

Opps, my mistake

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

Yeah he sure was on a different level and overall lot of so-called peak Shaq's performances showed they were lower.

Getting carried by Kobe Bryant in all facets with his season on the line in Game 7 vs. Portland and thereby avoiding arguably the worst collapse in NBA playoff history. Unable to even grab more rebounds or block more shots than a gangly 6'6" SG in arguably the biggest game of his career to date? Who ever carried a peak Hakeem's bags with his season on the line?

Flat out getting owned by epic proportions by Tim Duncan in the '02 WCSF nearly every facet save for shooting a meagre 2%fg better than him. Mind you Shaq's FG% in that series was only %44 and 21ppg, but yet people on RealGM lambast Hakeem for 48% FG for 33ppg and being an inefficient chucker that jacked up 29 shots per game. :Go figure. lol: Peak Hakeem wouldnt have even gotten out the first round from 92-95, much less won 2 titles putting up 21ppg and 44% fg in a series.

Peak Shaq dominated aging one dimensional big men h2h., and his biggest rival in the NBA in Duncan held his own or as the WCSF showed clearly outperformed him. The reciprocal of peak vs. 3rd year is I'd like to see Shaq at 32 (a guy who was fading that couldn't even outrebound Ben Wallace or guard anything 2-3 feet away from him) vs. Akeem at 23 (who ousted Showtime and battled the 50-1 HCA Celts to a hardfought 6 game loss).

If you wanna say Kobe carried Shaq, then I can say in this very series, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry carried Akeem to the victory! Look at the stats above. It wasn't Akeem hitting the clutch 3's in game 1. It was Kenny Smith. Mario Elie shot 65% for the series.

You've been proven wrong a million times. But I gotta commend you for your tenacity! Even though you don't know what you're talking about.

@ comparing Kobe's role vs the Spurs to Horry, Elie & Smith in 95. Nobody whether it be teammates or opponents outscored Olajuwon in either the 95 Finals or any series during his peak. Can't say the same for a lesser peak Shaq.

Keep grasping at straws.

Game 1? A inferior C in Shaq failed to block Clyde's game winning shot attempt and we all saw who scored the CLUTCH basket. I'm pretty sure a superior C like Hakeem would've blocked that.

Hakeem averaged more ppg in the 95 Finals than any opposing player did in a series in Shaq's entire playoff career.

You know what you're talking about.....and unfortunately for you given the outcome with Hakeem totally dominating Shaq in the clincher....the more you think back...the more it hurts,lol.

[jaypo]

Yeah he sure was on a different level and overall lot of so-called peak Shaq's performances showed they were lower.

Getting carried by Kobe Bryant in all facets with his season on the line in Game 7 vs. Portland and thereby avoiding arguably the worst collapse in NBA playoff history. Unable to even grab more rebounds or block more shots than a gangly 6'6" SG in arguably the biggest game of his career to date? Who ever carried a peak Hakeem's bags with his season on the line?

Flat out getting owned by epic proportions by Tim Duncan in the '02 WCSF nearly every facet save for shooting a meagre 2%fg better than him. Mind you Shaq's FG% in that series was only %44 and 21ppg, but yet people on RealGM lambast Hakeem for 48% FG for 33ppg and being an inefficient chucker that jacked up 29 shots per game. :Go figure. lol: Peak Hakeem wouldnt have even gotten out the first round from 92-95, much less won 2 titles putting up 21ppg and 44% fg in a series.

Peak Shaq dominated aging one dimensional big men h2h., and his biggest rival in the NBA in Duncan held his own or as the WCSF showed clearly outperformed him. The reciprocal of peak vs. 3rd year is I'd like to see Shaq at 32 (a guy who was fading that couldn't even outrebound Ben Wallace or guard anything 2-3 feet away from him) vs. Akeem at 23 (who ousted Showtime and battled the 50-1 HCA Celts to a hardfought 6 game loss).

If you wanna say Kobe carried Shaq, then I can say in this very series, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry carried Akeem to the victory! Look at the stats above. It wasn't Akeem hitting the clutch 3's in game 1. It was Kenny Smith. Mario Elie shot 65% for the series.

You've been proven wrong a million times. But I gotta commend you for your tenacity! Even though you don't know what you're talking about.

@ comparing Kobe's role vs the Spurs to Horry, Elie & Smith in 95. Nobody whether it be teammates or opponents outscored Olajuwon in either the 95 Finals or any series during his peak. Can't say the same for a lesser peak Shaq.

Keep grasping at straws.

Game 1? A inferior C in Shaq failed to block Clyde's game winning shot attempt and we all saw who scored the CLUTCH basket. I'm pretty sure a superior C like Hakeem would've blocked that.

Hakeem averaged more ppg in the 95 Finals than any opposing player did in a series in Shaq's entire playoff career.

You know what you're talking about.....and unfortunately for you given the outcome with Hakeem totally dominating Shaq in the clincher....the more you think back...the more it hurts,lol.

Nice attempt to rewrite history, but I'll play. Sure, a prime Akeem averaged more ppg vs. Shaq than any opposing player. He was the greatest 2 way center ever going against a 3rd year Shaq. However, when Akeem has to take 11 more shots per game than Shaq to only score 4 more points, that says something. Shaq had more rebounds, assists, and blocks and shot almost 60%.(vs the best defensive center than Russ, BTW!) I'm not sure how you can boast about how much Akeem Dominated Shaq when his prime version allowed a 3rd year center that YOU claim is inferior to average 28 ppg, pull down more boards, dish out more assists, and block more shots while shooting almost 60% from the field! Shaq actually outplayed him, especially when they allowed Akeem to play him straight up.

All you have to do is look at the box scores and actually watch the games. Shaq more than held his own in that series. Akeem did what he SHOULD have done. The Rockets' supporting cast outplayed their counterparts. Mario friggin' Elie shot 65% from the field!! Baby Horry scored 21 in the clincher. Let's play a little game. Let's say that Akeem scores 26 on 62.5%, pulls down 16 boards, has 9 assists and 3 blocks, but loses to Shaq who has 31, 6, 7, and 4 on 50% from the field. What would your analysis be? Clearly, Akeem played better- that 5 point difference was eaten up by the boards and assists. His teammates failed him. Oh, wait. That was the game 1 totals in reverse. Shaq had 26, 16, 9, and 3 on 62.5% from the field. His TEAMMATE missed 4 FT's allowing KENNY SMITH, not Akeem, to hit clutch 3's stealing HCA.

When it comes down to it, you can take both C's out of the equation, because, at BEST, they cancel each other out in production. That series was determined by the role players. Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Rob Horry won that series. Or, if you wanna do it this way, Nick Anderson and Dennis Johnson LOST the series. Shaq outplayed your hero. And as the other thread showed, it was pretty convincing.

Oh, and we're not even touching on the fact that this was Shaq WAY before his prime. Prime Shaq would have Akeem walking around in a diaper!!

And on the contrary, the more I think about it and analyze it, the BETTER I feel. Every time I analyze it, I see more evidence that Shaq outplayed Akeem in his 3rd year.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

If you wanna say Kobe carried Shaq, then I can say in this very series, Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry carried Akeem to the victory! Look at the stats above. It wasn't Akeem hitting the clutch 3's in game 1. It was Kenny Smith. Mario Elie shot 65% for the series.

You've been proven wrong a million times. But I gotta commend you for your tenacity! Even though you don't know what you're talking about.

@ comparing Kobe's role vs the Spurs to Horry, Elie & Smith in 95. Nobody whether it be teammates or opponents outscored Olajuwon in either the 95 Finals or any series during his peak. Can't say the same for a lesser peak Shaq.

Keep grasping at straws.

Game 1? A inferior C in Shaq failed to block Clyde's game winning shot attempt and we all saw who scored the CLUTCH basket. I'm pretty sure a superior C like Hakeem would've blocked that.

Hakeem averaged more ppg in the 95 Finals than any opposing player did in a series in Shaq's entire playoff career.

You know what you're talking about.....and unfortunately for you given the outcome with Hakeem totally dominating Shaq in the clincher....the more you think back...the more it hurts,lol.

Nice attempt to rewrite history, but I'll play. Sure, a prime Akeem averaged more ppg vs. Shaq than any opposing player. He was the greatest 2 way center ever going against a 3rd year Shaq. However, when Akeem has to take 11 more shots per game than Shaq to only score 4 more points, that says something. Shaq had more rebounds, assists, and blocks and shot almost 60%.(vs the best defensive center than Russ, BTW!) I'm not sure how you can boast about how much Akeem Dominated Shaq when his prime version allowed a 3rd year center that YOU claim is inferior to average 28 ppg, pull down more boards, dish out more assists, and block more shots while shooting almost 60% from the field! Shaq actually outplayed him, especially when they allowed Akeem to play him straight up.

All you have to do is look at the box scores and actually watch the games. Shaq more than held his own in that series. Akeem did what he SHOULD have done. The Rockets' supporting cast outplayed their counterparts. Mario friggin' Elie shot 65% from the field!! Baby Horry scored 21 in the clincher. Let's play a little game. Let's say that Akeem scores 26 on 62.5%, pulls down 16 boards, has 9 assists and 3 blocks, but loses to Shaq who has 31, 6, 7, and 4 on 50% from the field. What would your analysis be? Clearly, Akeem played better- that 5 point difference was eaten up by the boards and assists. His teammates failed him. Oh, wait. That was the game 1 totals in reverse. Shaq had 26, 16, 9, and 3 on 62.5% from the field. His TEAMMATE missed 4 FT's allowing KENNY SMITH, not Akeem, to hit clutch 3's stealing HCA.

When it comes down to it, you can take both C's out of the equation, because, at BEST, they cancel each other out in production. That series was determined by the role players. Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, and Rob Horry won that series. Or, if you wanna do it this way, Nick Anderson and Dennis Johnson LOST the series. Shaq outplayed your hero. And as the other thread showed, it was pretty convincing.

Oh, and we're not even touching on the fact that this was Shaq WAY before his prime. Prime Shaq would have Akeem walking around in a diaper!!

And on the contrary, the more I think about it and analyze it, the BETTER I feel. Every time I analyze it, I see more evidence that Shaq outplayed Akeem in his 3rd year.

Wow even more crying.....you remind me of Shaq at the end of game 4 after being abused by Hakeem.

It's so bad you're even blaming Dennis JOHNSON for Orlando losing.

[jaypo]

Not crying at all. Actually, if you had reading comprehension skills, you'd see that it makes me HAPPIER doing this because every time I do, the truth is more evident! That a baby Shaq with raw skills played your hero, at worst, evenly. And it's even more obvious that a prime Shaq with MORE skill and experience than that version would have turned the greatest 2 way center of all time into his own personal whipping boy. Actually, if you watched the tape, baby Shaq did that pretty much every time they had the courage to let Akeem cover him 1 on 1. But that wasn't very often, because Akeem was taking a physical beating!

Oh, and my bad on the Dennis Johnson thing. That was clearly my ignorance that caused me to use DJ from the Celtics instead of 3D, Dennis Scott. No possible way it was must a brain fart!

Man, Fusheng. Every time I watch it, I get happier and happier. Just watched game 2. You're right. Shaq was outscored. By a whole 1 point. But he had 5 more assists and 1 more rebound. And what I saw was that Akeem was very at ease when Shaq wasn't covering him. But when he was, he had to shoot from outside. On the other end, I saw more than once 4 people swarming Shaq when he had the ball in his hands.

So the more I look at it, the more I see that Shaq DID get the best of Akeem in that series, because Akeem had to have 3 men helping him out to defend Shaq, who still scored at almost 60%.

Your hero- the best 2 way center ever. But he couldn't stop a 3rd year Shaq. What I saw was Akeem scoring more than his RS totals, but at a worse %. I saw Shaq raise his FG% vs the best defensive center since Russ. All you see is "Akeem won". But HE didn't. The Rockets did.

But if you'd like to keep this up, I'm have a blast. It just keeps adding to the fact that Shaq is higher up on the GOAT list than your boy Akeem.