2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[fatal9]

Curry is great but he still doesn't play a lick of defense

this meme really needs to stop.

[MeloMIracle]

Really, you're baffled by how someone could prefer CP3? I mean, they play two totally different positions. How did you achieve such certainty that Chris Paul's floor general impact could be dismissed so easily?

You can prefer CP3 all you want, but he did not have a better season than Melo and their mvp rankings this season proves that.

I said nothing about my preferences. I spoke only to you stating to the world you were baffled at something that the vast majority of people aren't baffled by.

Also interesting that Melo finishing 1 spot ahead of Paul is "proof" to you. Those MVP voters aren't baffled by what you're baffled at either...and some of them are baffled by an awful lot.

CP3 lead his team to a first round bust, Melo will be leading his team to the ECF at a minimum, and you can quote me for dat. This alone should put him ahead of CP3, it hasn't happened yet but we will see how things go as we get further in to the playoffs.

[CBA]

I think we've officially ventured into hyperbole now. Curry shot great after ASW (62TS%), but CP3 was only 2% lower on the entire year while being better at everything else and having a much larger impact on his team's offense.

This is exactly what "changing your impression game to game" does. You disregard all prior evidence.

Pretty sure he pointed out "if it wasn't just a hot streak", meaning if Curry played like that for an entire year. And much larger impact on team offense, when Curry's shooting like that? Hard to believe. There's a graphic that showed how Curry being such an unbelievable shooter is basically what the entire Warriors offense is built on. He IS their offense.

I don't necessarily agree with him that next year Curry might be better, but we're not talking game to game sample sizes here. We're assuming a full year of this kind of production.

I was comparing Curry's hot streak, his best stretch of only 30 games, to CP3's entire year.

It shouldn't be hard to believe that CP3 has a larger impact; Nash did the same without scoring with great volume. CP3 - on the year - happened to take lesser offensive players to greater heights than Curry - in his best stretch of 30 games - backed up by their ORTG and oRAPM in where the difference isn't especially close.

[E-Balla]

Curry is great but he still doesn't play a lick of defense

this meme really needs to stop.

They gave up 106.7 ppp with Curry and 101.4 ppp without him. So eye test and numbers seem to agree with me...

[HeartBreakKid]

You can prefer CP3 all you want, but he did not have a better season than Melo and their mvp rankings this season proves that.

I said nothing about my preferences. I spoke only to you stating to the world you were baffled at something that the vast majority of people aren't baffled by.

Also interesting that Melo finishing 1 spot ahead of Paul is "proof" to you. Those MVP voters aren't baffled by what you're baffled at either...and some of them are baffled by an awful lot.

CP3 lead his team to a first round bust, Melo will be leading his team to the ECF at a minimum, and you can quote me for dat. This alone should put him ahead of CP3, it hasn't happened yet but we will see how things go as we get further in to the playoffs.

CP3 had to play the Memphis Grizzlies, Melo played an injured and old boston Celtics. In fact, I dont even get how you can use the playoffs as an argument. Melo had like 4 or 5 terrible games in a row, CP3 was good through out the playoffs for the most part. Post season, CP3 easily has outperformed Carmelo.


During the regular season, I don't see the argument for Melo at all. Pretty sure in advance metrics CP3 has Melo beat in offense by a decent amount, and it's safe to say Melo's defense isn't exactly lighting the world on fire.

This is Carmelo's best season, but Carmelo was never great in the first place. Don't get why people get so salty about him.

[bondom34]

I said nothing about my preferences. I spoke only to you stating to the world you were baffled at something that the vast majority of people aren't baffled by.

Also interesting that Melo finishing 1 spot ahead of Paul is "proof" to you. Those MVP voters aren't baffled by what you're baffled at either...and some of them are baffled by an awful lot.

CP3 lead his team to a first round bust, Melo will be leading his team to the ECF at a minimum, and you can quote me for dat. This alone should put him ahead of CP3, it hasn't happened yet but we will see how things go as we get further in to the playoffs.

CP3 had to play the Memphis Grizzlies, Melo played an injured and old boston Celtics. In fact, I dont even get how you can use the playoffs as an argument. Melo had like 4 or 5 terrible games in a row, CP3 was good through out the playoffs for the most part. Post season, CP3 easily has outperformed Carmelo.


During the regular season, I don't see the argument for Melo at all. Pretty sure in advance metrics CP3 has Melo beat in offense by a decent amount, and it's safe to say Melo's defense isn't exactly lighting the world on fire.

This is Carmelo's best season, but Carmelo was never great in the first place. Don't get why people get so salty about him.

Yup. 1 Nutjob votes Melo for MVP, doesn't make him better than CP3 either.

Reg. Season

Player: O Rtg/D Rtg/WS per 48/PER
Melo: 112/108/.184/24.8
CP3:127/102/.287/26.4

Playoffs
Melo: 100/97/.134/21.3
CP3:132/113/.268/29.2

Other stats pretty much as expected, Melo scores more, has higher USG, more TOs, more rebounds. CP3 way more assists, better shooting percentages, more steals.

[MeloMIracle]

CP3 lead his team to a first round bust, Melo will be leading his team to the ECF at a minimum, and you can quote me for dat. This alone should put him ahead of CP3, it hasn't happened yet but we will see how things go as we get further in to the playoffs.

CP3 had to play the Memphis Grizzlies, Melo played an injured and old boston Celtics. In fact, I dont even get how you can use the playoffs as an argument. Melo had like 4 or 5 terrible games in a row, CP3 was good through out the playoffs for the most part. Post season, CP3 easily has outperformed Carmelo.


During the regular season, I don't see the argument for Melo at all. Pretty sure in advance metrics CP3 has Melo beat in offense by a decent amount, and it's safe to say Melo's defense isn't exactly lighting the world on fire.

This is Carmelo's best season, but Carmelo was never great in the first place. Don't get why people get so salty about him.

Yup. 1 Nutjob votes Melo for MVP, doesn't make him better than CP3 either.

Reg. Season

Player: O Rtg/D Rtg/WS per 48/PER
Melo: 112/108/.184/24.8
CP3:127/102/.287/26.4

Playoffs
Melo: 100/97/.134/21.3
CP3:132/113/.268/29.2

Other stats pretty much as expected, Melo scores more, has higher USG, more TOs, more rebounds. CP3 way more assists, better shooting percentages, more steals.

Ok then no need to have a thread even here's the top 15 mvp list, nothing more to talk about.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings

[HeartBreakKid]

CP3 had to play the Memphis Grizzlies, Melo played an injured and old boston Celtics. In fact, I dont even get how you can use the playoffs as an argument. Melo had like 4 or 5 terrible games in a row, CP3 was good through out the playoffs for the most part. Post season, CP3 easily has outperformed Carmelo.


During the regular season, I don't see the argument for Melo at all. Pretty sure in advance metrics CP3 has Melo beat in offense by a decent amount, and it's safe to say Melo's defense isn't exactly lighting the world on fire.

This is Carmelo's best season, but Carmelo was never great in the first place. Don't get why people get so salty about him.

Yup. 1 Nutjob votes Melo for MVP, doesn't make him better than CP3 either.

Reg. Season

Player: O Rtg/D Rtg/WS per 48/PER
Melo: 112/108/.184/24.8
CP3:127/102/.287/26.4

Playoffs
Melo: 100/97/.134/21.3
CP3:132/113/.268/29.2

Other stats pretty much as expected, Melo scores more, has higher USG, more TOs, more rebounds. CP3 way more assists, better shooting percentages, more steals.

Ok then no need to have a thread even here's the top 15 mvp list, nothing more to talk about.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings

This doesn't seem like an MVP list to me, and even if it were, my response would be....so? The media decides MVP, someone voted Carmelo as MVP over Lebron James for God sakes.

[bondom34]

CP3 had to play the Memphis Grizzlies, Melo played an injured and old boston Celtics. In fact, I dont even get how you can use the playoffs as an argument. Melo had like 4 or 5 terrible games in a row, CP3 was good through out the playoffs for the most part. Post season, CP3 easily has outperformed Carmelo.


During the regular season, I don't see the argument for Melo at all. Pretty sure in advance metrics CP3 has Melo beat in offense by a decent amount, and it's safe to say Melo's defense isn't exactly lighting the world on fire.

This is Carmelo's best season, but Carmelo was never great in the first place. Don't get why people get so salty about him.

Yup. 1 Nutjob votes Melo for MVP, doesn't make him better than CP3 either.

Reg. Season

Player: O Rtg/D Rtg/WS per 48/PER
Melo: 112/108/.184/24.8
CP3:127/102/.287/26.4

Playoffs
Melo: 100/97/.134/21.3
CP3:132/113/.268/29.2

Other stats pretty much as expected, Melo scores more, has higher USG, more TOs, more rebounds. CP3 way more assists, better shooting percentages, more steals.

Ok then no need to have a thread even here's the top 15 mvp list, nothing more to talk about.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings

Note that although he's got a higher PER, CP3 also leads Melo in other stats (noted above). As well, he led a team through a much tougher conference, and the argument that he's no longer in the playoffs is moot, as A his total season was better and B it was a more difficult matchup without Blake Griffin playing. Paul is the undisputed top PG in the league, Melo's not even best at his own position in the league. I realize that no matter the evidence it doesn't matter to change your mind, but to most NBA fans, Paul had a clearly superior season.

[MeloMIracle]

Yup. 1 Nutjob votes Melo for MVP, doesn't make him better than CP3 either.

Reg. Season

Player: O Rtg/D Rtg/WS per 48/PER
Melo: 112/108/.184/24.8
CP3:127/102/.287/26.4

Playoffs
Melo: 100/97/.134/21.3
CP3:132/113/.268/29.2

Other stats pretty much as expected, Melo scores more, has higher USG, more TOs, more rebounds. CP3 way more assists, better shooting percentages, more steals.

Ok then no need to have a thread even here's the top 15 mvp list, nothing more to talk about.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings

Note that although he's got a higher PER, CP3 also leads Melo in other stats (noted above). As well, he led a team through a much tougher conference, and the argument that he's no longer in the playoffs is moot, as A his total season was better and B it was a more difficult matchup without Blake Griffin playing. Paul is the undisputed top PG in the league, Melo's not even best at his own position in the league. I realize that no matter the evidence it doesn't matter to change your mind, but to most NBA fans, Paul had a clearly superior season.

I really don't think those stats say Paul is clearly better, I mean I think it's even at best.
Melo dominates points CP3 dominates assissts, Melo is much better at rebounding, CP3 is much better at steals.
and everything else is marginal, I think Melo is a slightly better defensive player im sure you won't agree because of reputation but he has done a great job all season especially in these playoffs.

[bondom34]

Ok then no need to have a thread even here's the top 15 mvp list, nothing more to talk about.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/rankings

Note that although he's got a higher PER, CP3 also leads Melo in other stats (noted above). As well, he led a team through a much tougher conference, and the argument that he's no longer in the playoffs is moot, as A his total season was better and B it was a more difficult matchup without Blake Griffin playing. Paul is the undisputed top PG in the league, Melo's not even best at his own position in the league. I realize that no matter the evidence it doesn't matter to change your mind, but to most NBA fans, Paul had a clearly superior season.

I really don't think those stats say Paul is clearly better, I mean I think it's even at best.
Melo dominates points CP3 dominates assissts, Melo is much better at rebounding, CP3 is much better at steals.
and everything else is marginal, I think Melo is a slightly better defensive player im sure you won't agree because of reputation but he has done a great job all season especially in these playoffs.

Personally, I do disagree w/ the defense, and feel as if CP3 makes other players around him better much moreso than Melo, his assist rate is through the roof w/ hardly any TOs, however, that being said you're as entitled to your opinion as I am (which is the beauty of these threads).

[MeloMIracle]

Note that although he's got a higher PER, CP3 also leads Melo in other stats (noted above). As well, he led a team through a much tougher conference, and the argument that he's no longer in the playoffs is moot, as A his total season was better and B it was a more difficult matchup without Blake Griffin playing. Paul is the undisputed top PG in the league, Melo's not even best at his own position in the league. I realize that no matter the evidence it doesn't matter to change your mind, but to most NBA fans, Paul had a clearly superior season.

I really don't think those stats say Paul is clearly better, I mean I think it's even at best.
Melo dominates points CP3 dominates assissts, Melo is much better at rebounding, CP3 is much better at steals.
and everything else is marginal, I think Melo is a slightly better defensive player im sure you won't agree because of reputation but he has done a great job all season especially in these playoffs.

Personally, I do disagree w/ the defense, and feel as if CP3 makes other players around him better much moreso than Melo, his assist rate is through the roof w/ hardly any TOs, however, that being said you're as entitled to your opinion as I am (which is the beauty of these threads).

Ok then people need to stop ridiculing me for my list then, I said what I said because that is MY list of who I think is top5.

[therealbig3]

Ok then people need to stop ridiculing me for my list then, I said what I said because that is MY list of who I think is top5.

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

[MeloMIracle]

Ok then people need to stop ridiculing me for my list then, I said what I said because that is MY list of who I think is top5.

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

It's not just cp3 but people are putting harden, curry(he's playing awesome right now but you can't really put him ahead until we see how these playoffs go), duncan, howard, wade, kobe, deron williams,parker, westbrook all ahead of Melo....those guys are all good but Melo has a much bigger impact on games than all of them.

[therealbig3]

Ok then people need to stop ridiculing me for my list then, I said what I said because that is MY list of who I think is top5.

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

It's not just cp3 but people are putting harden, curry(he's playing awesome right now but you can't really put him ahead until we see how these playoffs go), duncan, howard, wade, kobe, deron williams,parker, westbrook all ahead of Melo....those guys are all good but Melo has a much bigger impact on games than all of them.

Based on what? Honestly, I'd say M. Gasol/Harden/Duncan/Howard/Wade/Kobe/Deron/Parker/Westbrook/Melo were all on the same tier. Curry's playoffs have put him slightly ahead of that group, while LeBron, Durant, and CP3 are a cut above everyone else.

Of all of those players on the same tier, I'd say Harden, Wade, and Gasol are better than Melo, but all three of those are debatable. Parker and Duncan are system players at this point imo, and I'd take Melo over either one. Howard was a cancer, and wasn't even all that great, so I'd take Melo over him too. Westbrook and Kobe got injured for the most important part of the season, so Melo's over both. And I honestly think D-Will's getting underrated like crazy...he was arguably a top 3-5 player in the 2nd half of the season, and he played well against a great defense in the Bulls in the playoffs. I think him and Melo are basically toss-ups to be honest, but I'll give Melo the benefit of the doubt and put him over D-Will for now, just because of how poorly D-Will started the year.

So for me, I think Melo is debatable with Harden, Wade, Gasol, and D-Will, and can thus be ranked anywhere from 5th to 9th on the season. For me personally, Melo's 8th in a virtual tie with D-Will, who's at 9th.

[MeloMIracle]

LOL, what? You were ridiculing other people first by acting shocked that they were ranking CP3 over Melo. Most objective arguments heavily favor CP3, so ranking him over Melo isn't a minority opinion or an outlandish opinion.

You can go with Melo if you want, but logical analysis is really on CP3's side here, so don't act offended when other people are taking him over Melo.

It's not just cp3 but people are putting harden, curry(he's playing awesome right now but you can't really put him ahead until we see how these playoffs go), duncan, howard, wade, kobe, deron williams,parker, westbrook all ahead of Melo....those guys are all good but Melo has a much bigger impact on games than all of them.

Based on what? Honestly, I'd say M. Gasol/Harden/Duncan/Howard/Wade/Kobe/Deron/Parker/Westbrook/Melo were all on the same tier. Curry's playoffs have put him slightly ahead of that group, while LeBron, Durant, and CP3 are a cut above everyone else.

Of all of those players on the same tier, I'd say Harden, Wade, and Gasol are better than Melo, but all three of those are debatable. Parker and Duncan are system players at this point imo, and I'd take Melo over either one. Howard was a cancer, and wasn't even all that great, so I'd take Melo over him too. Westbrook and Kobe got injured for the most important part of the season, so Melo's over both. And I honestly think D-Will's getting underrated like crazy...he was arguably a top 3-5 player in the 2nd half of the season, and he played well against a great defense in the Bulls in the playoffs. I think him and Melo are basically toss-ups to be honest, but I'll give Melo the benefit of the doubt and put him over D-Will for now, just because of how poorly D-Will started the year.

So for me, I think Melo is debatable with Harden, Wade, Gasol, and D-Will, and can thus be ranked anywhere from 5th to 9th on the season. For me personally, Melo's 8th in a virtual tie with D-Will, who's at 9th.

Please enlighten me how Harden is better than Melo, Melo had a better per, rebounds better, plays better defense, better fg percentages despite shooting more than Harden. About the only thing Harden has over Melo would be free throws and playmaking/assists. Melo is even having a better postseason despite the horrible slump hes having with a bum shoulder. d-will on Melo's level? c'mon man now you are just trollin....

[Vinsanity420]

Carmelo led the 3rd best offense in the league this year, so I feel like some of you are underselling his O in this thread. His 2nd and 3rd best players on O were JR Smith and Raymond Felton... JR Smith is a 52 TS% player, and Raymond Felton is a 50 TS%. Both solid role-players, but JR Smith is ultimately an unreliable shooter and Raymond Felton is an average starting PG... neither of these guys are all that special. Carmelo had a 35% Usage Rate and maintained an O Rating of 112. That is a large offensive load, and it's impressive he maintained that overall efficiency. A 112 overall O Rating for a team is good enough to be #2 in the league. Carmelo has shot badly so far in the playoffs, though... so he might fall out of my Top 5.

I really don't see Wade being capable of handling that kind of load. I don't know if I am underselling him because LeBron's been so great, but he really isn't striking to me as Top 5 material. He's sort of in Duncan territory to me. The guy that can play like a Top 5 player, but may or may not be capable of carrying the franchise like Carmelo has this year, or Stephen Curry is doing in the playoffs. Stephen Curry, especially, literally CANNOT afford to sit for a minute in the playoffs... that's how important he is to the GS offense. I distinctly remember him doing that against the Spurs and Jarret Jack screwing everything up... the lead was literally cut down from 15 to 7 in 2-3 minutes.

1. LBJ
2. KD
3. Paul
4 - 5. Curry, ? (Possibly Carmelo, Harden, Wade, Duncan)

[Rapcity_11]

Curry is great but he still doesn't play a lick of defense

this meme really needs to stop.

They gave up 106.7 ppp with Curry and 101.4 ppp without him. So eye test and numbers seem to agree with me...

Using on/off to evaluate PG defense...

Some things to consider are how often the W's went small with Curry in the game and sharing the floor with Lee so much.

[Rapcity_11]

My lord the West is in chaos.

Speaking of the West, Stephen Curry has cemented himself as the second best PG in the game imo. And unlike every other elite PG, I think he can actually challenge CP3 at some point in the future. He's got an IQ that I don't really think anyone else has.

I love me some Steph, but is he really a that high of an IQ player?

His talent is obviously insane, as is his current play. But I don't see much offensive genius in him at all, to this point. He's a talented and skillful passer but I don't think he's learned how to facilitate and manipulate the defense, *yet*. Which is why I expect him to become an MVP caliber player, when he learns how to read the defense and linger in the paint like CP3 and Nash.

Can you explain this crazy high IQ you see in him? I don't see it yet, and that's exciting to me.

[E-Balla]

this meme really needs to stop.

They gave up 106.7 ppp with Curry and 101.4 ppp without him. So eye test and numbers seem to agree with me...

Using on/off to evaluate PG defense...

Some things to consider are how often the W's went small with Curry in the game and sharing the floor with Lee so much.

Being out with Lee makes him look worse but I've seen no numbers that make Curry not look like a trash defender. When I watch him he looks like a trash defender. Therefore I believe he's a trash defender. He's also ranked 365th on mysynergysports. According to 82gamesches gives up a 16.5 PER to PGs (average for PGs this season was 12.2). He's a very bad defender.