[POLL] Kevin Garnett: Where do you rank him?

[MistyMountain20]

This KG GOAT on defense narrative, a majority is coming from his 2-3 year (when he could be argued as a top player still) stint in Boston. Since his teams in Minny were never very good defensively.

[mtron929]

I think KG should be somewhere between 15-20. But the ranking methodology in the thread that OP is referring to is conducted in such a way that a player just need enough hardcore proponents to be ranked high.

[mtron929]

I think what hurts KG is that although he is consistently good, he does not have that gear of transcendent good, which I expect from a top 10 all time player. Basically, NBA format is set up in such a way that if team A is simply better than team B, then team A will advance further than team B in the playoffs for the most part. Accordingly, a mark of a great player is not what he does against inferior competition, but how he plays against equal or slightly better competition.

Within this line of reasoning, if you are a player with a top 5 team in the NBA, how you perform against 27 other inferior teams (which is roughly 84% of the games and 84% of your stats) is somewhat irrelevant when evaluating your place in the all time GOAT ranking. It is what you do against top-notch teams that dictate your place amongst the immortals.

And unfortunately for KG, he did not have that extra gear where he can dominate the great competitors over a stretch of 4-5 games. He just didn't. Dirk had it. Olajuwon had it. Lebron had it. But KG didn't. And thus, KG's advanced stats inflate his worth.

[ThaRegul8r]

I wonder how Thurmond could stop prime Kareem

Because he was the GOAT man defender at the 5.

[Jaivl]

I wonder how Thurmond could stop prime Kareem

Because he was the GOAT man defender at the 5.

Yeah, I know. He wondered why LeBron (one of the GOAT at rim) torched the Celtics.

[Joao Saraiva]

He is. Or at least a superhero. Or at least insanely better than Barkley, way better than Dirk and clearly better than Malone.

I'm even wondering how Gasol was successfull against God in the NBA finals of 2010. Or how LeBron got so many great games against Boston when it's so difficult in the paint vs KG.

KG is great on D, but let's not act like Malone was liability there. KG is the best of the group but the margin does not compensate a ton of areas where KG is the worse player.

Dirk is a diferent kind of PF but he elevates his game a ton in the playoffs. I'll take Dirk's impact and spacing for other players in a heartbeat over KG's defensive impact.

2010 was Garnett's comeback from a major injury, that was probably the worst season of his career before last season, is him being out played by peak Pau Gasol really that much of a downer? Not like Malone never been outplayed either.

I don't understand how James having all time great games against Boston means anything. Not sure if you've heard, but that James guy is pretty good.

You got me wrong. But when somebody goes as far as saying Garnett is a God or super hero on D I'll expect him to be play like no other man played before in his life. And that's not true.

I don't see it as something embarassfull that KG got outplayed by Gasol or that LeBron scored a bunch of points against Boston. Like I said, KG was really good and a great defensive player. But it just gets to a point where it is absurd to rank him #7 or #11 of all time. Being worse than 15 guys who ever played the game of basketball is still a great level of course. Just not god on D or superhero.

[Joao Saraiva]

I wonder how Thurmond could stop prime Kareem

Because he was the GOAT man defender at the 5.

Yeah, I know. He wondered why LeBron (one of the GOAT at rim) torched the Celtics.

When you say KG is like god or a super hero on D I'll expect better. You got it all wrong.

Like I said KG was great on D. But let's not act like he was Hakeem or God or a super hero. That's just it.

And I didn't say anyone was a bad poster for picking KG over Dirk or something like you said I said. I just stated that I'd pick Dirk over KG. In what way does that embarass you?

I made a long post on why I'd pick Barkley, Malone or Dirk over KG. Never was I disrespectful at that post.

I just don't think KG has a legit case for #7 like I've seen in this thread, and quite honestly not even top 14.

How is that being disrespectful?

[Jim Naismith]

The 2014 RealGM Top 100 project ranks Kevin Garnett at #11.

Update
Kevin Garnett is currently ranked #15 in this poll.


This is based on the weighted average of the results.

[TheRobin]

KG gives you 15 superstar level seasons based on RAPM, so i'm going move him to #1. Give him a sidekick like Pippen, and a HOF coach like Phil, and he would be winning titles at Russell's pace. And in comparisons to Russ, KG gives you the same GOAT level defense, with much better offense, and crazy versatility.

Ardee and Unbiased Fan. I know it must hurt that your precious savior Kobe Bean Bryant wasn't voted #2, or at least in the top ten, but to add insult to injury Kevin Garnett a player with only 1 ringz is above your messiah. And by the looks of it Lord Kobe might not even be in at 12.

But I have him at #11 with Kobe at 16

[therealbig3]

The 2014 RealGM Top 100 project ranks Kevin Garnett at #11.

Update
Kevin Garnett is currently ranked #15 in this poll.


This is based on the weighted average of the results.

So I don't really see the big discrepancy. 11-15 SHOULD be pretty interchangeable for most people. You're talking about the best of the best here...a huge gap between any of them doesn't make any sense.

[therealbig3]

LeBron actually struggled pretty badly against Boston in 08 and 10, with Garnett protecting the rim. Even in 11, he was the 2nd option to Wade in that series. The only truly transcendent series LeBron had against Boston was in 12.

Gasol struggled in 2008. He played well in 2010 against an injured Garnett. What am I missing here?

LeBron, one of the greatest players to ever play the game, had one good series, one great series, and two bad series against a Garnett-led Celtics defense. This is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

Gasol, one of the most skilled big men in the NBA during his prime, had one good series against a hobbled Garnett. Again, this is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

[Melodabeast]

Probably the GOAT because RAPM.

Go ahead and ignore missing the playoffs for three straight seasons, the unbelievably horrific post-season efficiency (51% TS), the consistently mediocre defenses he anchored, losing in the first round for seven straight seasons, the mediocre scoring and takeover ability, the lack of extra gears, etc etc.

It's all about dat RAPM baby.

[G35]

LeBron actually struggled pretty badly against Boston in 08 and 10, with Garnett protecting the rim. Even in 11, he was the 2nd option to Wade in that series. The only truly transcendent series LeBron had against Boston was in 12.

Gasol struggled in 2008. He played well in 2010 against an injured Garnett. What am I missing here?

LeBron, one of the greatest players to ever play the game, had one good series, one great series, and two bad series against a Garnett-led Celtics defense. This is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

Gasol, one of the most skilled big men in the NBA during his prime, had one good series against a hobbled Garnett. Again, this is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

While the KG led Celtics had only two good playoff runs. Actually even their 2008 championship was shaky at best and the offense fell off big time. Gasol didn't just have a good series vs KG, he busted KG's ass. It would have been better if KG had not played.

In G7 of the finals Gasol had 18 rebounds and KG had 3 rebounds...now I know you want to say KG was injured but he also shot 8-13 so he was not that hurt and he played 38 minutes. How big does KG come up in close out games...not very well.....

[HeartBreakKid]

While the KG led Celtics had only two good playoff runs. Actually even their 2008 championship was shaky at best and the offense fell off big time. Gasol didn't just have a good series vs KG, he busted KG's ass. It would have been better if KG had not played.

In G7 of the finals Gasol had 18 rebounds and KG had 3 rebounds...now I know you want to say KG was injured but he also shot 8-13 so he was not that hurt and he played 38 minutes. How big does KG come up in close out games...not very well.....

And in that same series Ray Allen "busted" Kobe Bryant's ass, does that mean that Ray Allen is better than Kobe Bryant?

KG was still the best player on that team, and realistically still had the most impact that series. Don't get how Gasol having a great series means all that much.

[ardee]

Probably the GOAT because RAPM.

Go ahead and ignore missing the playoffs for three straight seasons, the unbelievably horrific post-season efficiency (51% TS), the consistently mediocre defenses he anchored, losing in the first round for seven straight seasons, the mediocre scoring and takeover ability, the lack of extra gears, etc etc.

It's all about dat RAPM baby.

And don't forget he's a middle linebacker...

[therealbig3]

Some of the Kobe fans in this thread are coming across like whiny bitches, if I'm to be honest.

[PaulieWal]

LeBron actually struggled pretty badly against Boston in 08 and 10, with Garnett protecting the rim. Even in 11, he was the 2nd option to Wade in that series. The only truly transcendent series LeBron had against Boston was in 12.

Gasol struggled in 2008. He played well in 2010 against an injured Garnett. What am I missing here?

LeBron, one of the greatest players to ever play the game, had one good series, one great series, and two bad series against a Garnett-led Celtics defense. This is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

Gasol, one of the most skilled big men in the NBA during his prime, had one good series against a hobbled Garnett. Again, this is supposed to be an indictment on Garnett?

I And1ed your post because I agree with the central argument of your comment. LeBron or Pau having good stats and impact in a series against KG is not necessarily an indictment on him. Where I slightly disagree is sort of presenting it as a black and white argument and saying that LeBron struggled in 08 and 10 and did good in 11 and 12, so KG overall did okay. I don't think LeBron struggling in 08 and 10 can be attributed to KG's defense (if that wasn't your point then disregard this part of my post). That had more to do with the Celts being a significantly better team in 08 and an aging but still better better team in 10.

[Quotatious]

Even if those who voted for KG are relying solely on RAPM (which I doubt, and for me, it certainly wasn't the only factor), the main argument against KG seems to be his 51% playoff TS in Minnesota and better, but still unimpressive, career PO TS, which is even a much worse argument than KG > Kobe based on RAPM.

I mean - Larry Bird, widely considered as one of the GOAT offensive players, averaged 20.5 PPG on 50.5% TS his first four years in the playoffs. How does KG look like, if you compare him to BIrd? I mean, come on, that's not really a good argument if you look at the bigger picture, like including other players in this comparison, not just KB/KG.

Seems like a lot of people still aren't open minded enough to really shake things up (that is, the conventional wisdom). It's a fact that Kobe has basically always been regarded (almost unanimously) as a better/greater player than KG (the comparison is relatively easy to make because they're exact contemporaries), but I think it has a ton to do with these things - one, Kobe played on winning teams for vast majority of his career (winning bias is a very big factor in player comparisons, if you're not willing to evaluate players solely on stats - it's easy to list Kobe's accomplishments, but I don't exactly find that kind of analysis particularly interesting), two - Kobe is a guy who's basically an immediate successor of Michael Jordan - the GOAT (for a good reason) and the most beloved player of all-time, and three (closely correlated to #2), he's a high scoring, high-flying all-around wing player, and those players always seem to get the most love and publicity (it's basically started from Dr. J and then obviously Mike, were the first to receive that kind of worship and adoration), I think that a lot of people simply can't let go of judging players based on accomplishments (even team accomplishments), it has a really big subconscious impact on all-time rankings.

[Melodabeast]

Man, I can't say I'm a big KG fan but he's definitely 15-20 for me and, honestly, I wouldn't have a huge problem if he were ranked a little higher.

KG gives you 15 superstar level seasons based on RAPM, so i'm going move him to #1. Give him a sidekick like Pippen, and a HOF coach like Phil, and he would be winning titles at Russell's pace. And in comparisons to Russ, KG gives you the same GOAT level defense, with much better offense, and crazy versatility.

I understand the desire to make arguments like these but these fantasy scenario arguments still irk me, especially when they are used to make all-time-great cases.
You can make an argument like this swapping out any player for any more favorable situation. How many more times do we have to hear, "If KG played in San Antonio with Pop and Duncan was in Minny, what would their careers look like now?"
ENOUGH. KG's career is what it is - stop assuming that he would be Bill Russell in these fantasy scenarios. Nothing is a given.

Don't know about this bro. KG's giving you +9-11 impact at his peak, which maps out even greater than Russell probably. He's like a portable version of Goku once he goes Super-Saiyan.

To compare in my mind...

KG = Super Saiyan Goku
Russell = Frieza
MJ = Super Cell
Kareem = Vegeta
Lebron = Piccolo
Bosh = Krillen
Lisa Leslie = Bulma

[Woodsanity]

Top 15-20. 11 is reasonable though I don't like it. I definitely do not see much of a case for him in the top 10. Too many great players.