RealGM Top 100 List #27

[RSCD3_]

Voting for Frazier

His peak was very high and he had a lot more offensive impact than Scottie as he was a better facilitator and more efficient scorer capable of being the number 1 offensive option on a contending team.




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[penbeast0]

RUNOFF

Walt Frazier (7) -- penbeast0, GC Pantalones, Moonbeam, Quotatious, batmana, JordansBulls, RSCD3_

Scottie Pippen (7) -- Chuck Texas, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, SactoKingsFan, magicmer1, basketballefan

[Notanoob]

I'll cast my runoff vote for Scottie Pippen. Scottie has a huge edge as a guy who can defend multiple positions extremely well, and Frazier's natural edge as a playmaker by virtue of being a point guard is not really large enough to overcome that. I think that Scottie was the better player.

[tsherkin]

Vote for Walt Frazier

At work, will hash it out after.

[ceiling raiser]

Pretty interesting comparison IMO...

1) Both guys played elite defense in similar systems (Clyde under Holzman, Scottie under Phil who was inspired by Red) that relied a ton on pressure D
2) Both guys were the primary ball-handlers/leading playmakers on squads that played great team ball

The differences between them being:

1) Frazier seemingly seamlessly went from a member of the ensemble scoring the ball, to the key cog in that regard
2) Frazier put up what seem to be 10 quality years (68-69 through 77-78) with what seem to be not much else before or after, Scottie had 9 quality years in Chicago and 4 more years as a leader in Houston and Portland

I don't know if the longevity advantage is enough to offset the proven record succeeding as the number one option on a contender. Samurai noted in the other thread:

Reed hinself once said about that team: "it was Clyde's ball; he just let us play with it once in a while." In his prime, Frazier was a player that essentially did not have a weakness; offensively he could hit the midrange jumper, post up and drive to the basket. He was a very good distributor (4 top five finishes in assists/game in a 6 year period). He was an elite defender and an excellent rebounder for a guard.

Obviously Scottie (while he could do all three of those as well at a solid level, and was incredible in the break) played alongside perhaps the best ever perimeter scoring option (albeit a guy that Tex and Phil didn't want to chase scoring titles) during the majority of his prime, and throughout his career did pretty much everything at a very high level.

Something that's a bit of a concern for me is the question of how effective defensively both guys are. Scottie was more versatile (ability to play some post defense), and I can't say how his game would translate in today's league. Scottie also developed some range throughout his career, after from my understanding coming into the league with a reputation as an inconsistent shooter. Frazier obviously didn't have a three during his career, and while he did have a great midrange j, I haven't heard anything to convince me he had that kind of range.

Leaning Frazier, but I don't know if I can vote for him until I hear more about (1) his shooting range and (2) how others think his defense would translate to the present NBA.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think Frazier is given a little too much credit for his championships imo, he was never the definitive best player. Pippen played a nice second banana to 6 championships, which is impressive.

This isn't meant to dissuade you, but it's curious to say Frazier was never the definitive best player for the Knicks' championship runs as a point against Frazier when Pippen definitively wasn't the Bulls' best player in any of their championship seasons.

And Frazier led the Knicks to the Finals without Reed in '72 when Reed went down to injury, and I don't see how it can be said that Frazier wasn't the Knicks' best player in the '72-73 season.

[colts18]

Vote Scottie Pippen

-I like Pippen's 94/95 peak better than Clyde's peak
-Longevity is equal
-Pippen's 91-97 prime is underrated

[RayBan-Sematra]

VOTE : Frazier

Gonna humbly cast my vote for Frazier here.
I like his superior scoring ability and his ability to really take over as a scoring threat more then I like Pippen's potentially superior defense and extra longevity (mostly in the form of roleplayer years).
I tend to think Pip benefited more individually from team circumstances.
That isn't to say that Walt didn't benefit from his circumstances also but I feel more confident in his portability as an individual threat.
Pippen for all his talent I think was noticeably less capable as a scorer then Frazier was as a defender.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with Pippen getting voted in though.
I definitely get the arguments for him.

[ronnymac2]

Vote: Scott Pippen

His pre-91 years get underrated, and he was arguably the best player on a 6+ SRS team in 2000. You add all that with his stellar 1991-1998 period of GOAT perimeter defense and excellent all-around offense, and you get an incredibly valuable player. He has pseudo-point guard impact with pseudo-big man impact on defense. Incredibly portable. KG is the most portable player ever in my opinion, and Scottie has always been seen as a mini-version of KG.

[FJS]

Vote for pippen.
Great part for six rings. Elite deffense, nice offense and made bulls in 94 a contender.

[Jaivl]

Vote for Scottie Pippen

Certainly close. My vote goes for him because of his mix of PG-like offensive impact and PF defensive impact. I'm not sure Frazier, being a great defender on his own, can replicate that. And longevity favors Pippen a bit too.

[ThaRegul8r]

I agree with drza that Pippen numbers seem to favor him. My issue with Pippen (like with Gilmore) is his personality. The key feature of Pippen's personality was insecurity; it showed in his contracts, in his dealing with Jordan and others; it was something talked about a lot in bios of him. He was okay being second banana to Jordan but had bigger issues than even Jordan with Kukoc coming in because, among other things, they played the same spot. Thus the refusal to go into a playoff game when Phil Jackson drew up a last shot play featuring Kukoc rather than Scottie.

Wow, I strongly disagree with criticizing Pippen for his personality.

What was said was true.

Spoiler:

Last season was the NBA's first in the post-Jordan era, and no one embodied the league's struggle to move on better than Pippen. While the league contended with its bitter lockout, its amputee season and the lowest-rated Finals in the 1990s, the Rockets' ill-conceived attempt to concoct championship chemistry by adding Pippen to superstars Barkley and Hakeem Olajuwon degenerated into finger-pointing, strained friendships and a first-round exit from the '99 playoffs. No one this decade had gained more from life with Jordan than Pippen, and despite Pippen's acknowledged greatness, no one had suffered more from that association: Scottie couldn't win without Michael, it had been said before, during and after Jordan's first retirement, from October 1993 to April '95, and in Houston, it seemed, there was more proof.

"I miss playing with him," Pippen says of Jordan. "I miss our body language out on the court, things we developed together. I miss that we had one another, that intimidation factor that we'd bring to the game. I miss winning."

But no, he insists, even with his reputation at such a low ebb, Pippen feels no need to prove himself without Jordan. Already, the Pippen-led Trail Blazers have established themselves as one of the NBA's Western powers, a talent-rich team playing stingy defense and unselfish, fluid offense, Scottie's kind of basketball. Everyone seems happy. Coach Mike Dunleavy calls Pippen "the glue" that holds the Blazers together, the model for what Portland wants to be.

"He brought that star quality, he brought that aura of winning, that demeanor," says Blazers point guard Damon Stoudamire. "I can just see it in him. When he goes by, I look at him on the sly, see how he walks and what he does. Because he has been there."

That is Pippen's ultimate answer to all criticism, and one that gives him license to feel as good about himself as he likes. He has won six championships--"Six f------ rings!" says Portland shooting guard Steve Smith--and, at 34, he knows this gives him an authority that one twisted season can't erase. Jordan was his role model, the one who taught him about winning: what it took, how it should be handled, when to know it is over. Jordan taught him how to pause professorially before answering a question, how never to appear half naked before the cameras, what kind of earring to dangle from his left lobe. Jordan showed him the little things that go into acting like a success, and Pippen absorbed them like a thirsty child. Now a man who was once poor has a 74-foot yacht and a contract that pays him at least $14.75 million a year for the next three years and a wife so beautiful that she seems molded out of plastic. Younger players look to him for guidance, and few (if any) of his peers can teach him a thing.

That is why, before home games, Pippen rarely tries to read his opponents during warmups or watch a teammate to see how he carries himself. No, before every game in Portland's Rose Garden, Pippen only has eyes for one. He'll let his gaze drift over to the courtside seat occupied by Paul Allen, cofounder of Microsoft and owner of both the Trail Blazers and the Seattle Seahawks, a man with a personal net worth of $40 billion. Pippen looks at his employer's geeky exterior and wonders, much as he wondered about Michael, How does he do it? Make no mistake: After a year adrift, Pippen has himself a new role model.

"He's an amazing guy to look at, man," Pippen says, his voice rising. "What does he have? Forty billion? I want to know: How can I make a billion? I just want one of them! What do I need to do? But I don't want to approach him like that. I don't want people coming up to me just for what I do, and I'm sure he doesn't. So I have to let that relationship grow a little bit. Like, win a championship, and then I can say, 'Tell me how I can make a billion dollars. Tell me how I can become a billionaire.'"

He cannot help himself. What he wants, what he needs, what he deserves--Pippen has never been able to keep all this contained. Throughout his career he has said and done things unimaginable for a superstar, vented spleen and spewed bile, displaying for all to see megadoses of pride, wrath, envy and avarice. That's four of the seven deadly sins; throw in his two out-of-wedlock children and you've got lust, too, five of the Big Seven in all. And that's not quite the resume corporate America seeks when it looks to sell underwear or a new long-distance carrier.

In 1997 Pippen publicly called Bulls vice president Jerry Krause a liar, and in his final season in Chicago he said that his other boss, team chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, could "go to hell" for suggesting to reporters that Pippen would sign a one-year deal. In 1995 Pippen threw a chair onto the court after being ejected from a game, and in 1994 he indulged in his most infamous fit of pique: Overwhelmed by his jealousy of the less-talented, better-paid Toni Kukoc, Pippen sat at the end of the bench, refusing to play the final 1.8 seconds of Game 3 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the New York Knicks because Jackson had called for Kukoc to take the final shot.

"I was surprised that I did it," Pippen says. "I've got such a relationship with Phil, it was like a father and son fighting. I was sitting there, like, 'Spank me, then.' I was also thinking, Man, what did I just do? But by then it was too late."

The moment became a prime example of how modern players had no respect, of how sports was going to hell, but above all it became the most durable memory of Pippen's career. Bulls center Bill Cartwright, tears rolling down his face, blasted Pippen in the locker room afterward. Opponents, fans, editorial writers, coaches--all issued condemnations. Jordan, then playing baseball in Alabama, stated flatly that Chicago would have to unload Pippen. It is the one moment in his career that Pippen completely regrets. "It stays with me to this day," he says. "It's like I ran over a deer in my car. I won't forget about it."

Still, remembering is hardly understanding, and Pippen can no more explain the Kukoc incident than he can the mysterious migraine that laid him out during most of Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference finals, against the Detroit Pistons. "It's just the nature in me" to childishly pull out of the most important game of the season, Pippen says, just some inexplicable flash in the brainpan that sends him into bouts of stubborn moodiness.

"He has a different emotional being from Michael," says John Bach, a former Bulls assistant who worked with Pippen for six years. "Scottie had to find out things the hard way. He always had to put his hand on the hot stove." Yet months, even years go by without such an incident, and in each lull Pippen's superb play prompts observers to declare that, finally, he has matured.

"My trainer, Chip Schaefer, says, 'Three hundred sixty-two days out of the year, Scottie Pippen goes along as a model citizen, and everything's working quite well for him, and he's in a great mood, but those other two or three days, he can be the downest, darkest person there possibly can be,'" Jackson says. "You don't know where it came from or what happened, but there's a dark side to him that rarely surfaces. And when it does, it draws attention to itself."

So when, in late September, Pippen teed off on Barkley, saying on ESPN that the Rockets' future Hall of Famer was "very selfish...doesn't show the desire to want to win...just doesn't show the dedication," Jackson chalked it up to one of Pippen's black days. But the two teammates had a relationship that had grown more and more testy, and Pippen was hardly blameless. Before last season Barkley had taken a $1.2 million cut in salary to clear cap room for the Rockets to acquire Pippen, and the two players had worked out together daily. Pippen led Houston in assists, but he never looked comfortable in the Rockets' stolid half-court offense, and during last season's first-round playoff debacle against the Lakers, Pippen publicly questioned Barkley's judgment after Barkley fouled Shaquille O'Neal with 28 seconds left in Game 1--even though Pippen later made a costly turnover. (O'Neal made one foul shot, and the Lakers eventually won the game by a point.) In the early summer Pippen began quietly campaigning to join Jackson in L.A. In August, after Pippen and Barkley spent a week together in Hawaii on a Nike promotional trip, the news broke that Pippen had asked to be traded. Barkley returned to Houston and, claiming he had been blindsided, demanded that Pippen apologize to him, the other Rockets and their fans.

"I wouldn't give Charles Barkley an apology at gunpoint," Pippen said on ESPN on Sept. 29. "He can never expect an apology from me.... If anything, he owes me an apology for coming to play with his fat butt."

Three days later Pippen was officially gone, traded to Portland for forwards Walt Williams, Stacey Augmon and Carlos Rogers, center Kelvin Cato and guards Ed Gray and Brian Shaw. But his departure brought little peace; he and Barkley continue to snipe. Barkley vowed that Pippen would regret what he said--though when the Blazers and Rockets met for the first time this season, on Nov. 26, there was no incident--and declared that Pippen had broken an unwritten law by attacking a fellow athlete. Pippen calls that a joke. "He's been calling Oliver Miller fat since he's been in the league, and they played together," Pippen says. "He's always put his teammates down."

If anything, Pippen says, Barkley broke a trust when he declared that Pippen hadn't told him personally that he wanted to be traded. "He turned around and lied and said I didn't tell him, when I had spent a week in Hawaii with him," Pippen says. "Other NBA guys, like Jason Kidd, were there. We all went out to play golf one day, and I spoke to Charles about it. Then he gets back to Houston and starts saying that he'd spent a week with me and I hadn't said anything. I had." (Kidd confirms Pippen's account.)

This is not a battle Pippen can win. Though his game is as selfless as can be, though he routinely takes the toughest defensive assignment and sacrifices points to get his teammates involved, he is still perceived as selfish. Yet every eruption of his dark side takes his teammates by surprise. His breast-beating about paltry contracts in Chicago, his ripping of Barkley, his refusal to play at the end of Game 3--all of it hits like a garbage can hurled into a piano recital.

"He may not be the greatest go-to guy in the world," Dunleavy says of Pippen. "If I'm going to start a team and pick one guy, there are a lot of other guys I'd pick. But he has the ability to make all your guys go-to guys. He makes everybody better." Nevertheless, at heart, Pippen has the look-at-me neediness of a gunner. Though shooting and scoring are where he is least valuable, though he is smart enough to know that his selflessness is what makes him great, he still aches for the stroking given to those who rack up the big numbers. When Jordan took his hiatus to play baseball, Pippen took Jordan's locker. "Which was a statement," Bach says. Pippen wants to get what Jordan got. He wants to be like Mike.

One can't just act like anything that isn't 100% positive isn't true because it's about the guy one is supporting when one has no problem pointing out the non-positives about players one doesn't feel the same about. It's hypocrisy. It's one of the flaws of this process in that there isn't enough time to get all the information, so people who don't already happen to have it (which are most people) just gather enough information to either support their guy or detract from another player who isn't their guy in time for the deadline. But in the same above article was this:

Spoiler:

Pippen has the sleek body lines of a Learjet. There's a tiny tattoo on his left biceps that reads PIP, and in case that's too subtle, a white wristband bearing the same three letters often rests just below his left elbow. Nobody plays the team game as well as Scottie Pippen, but because of his off-court pop-offs, few people acknowledge this.

"Everybody who talks about the Chicago Bulls talks about MJ first," Harper says, "but Pip had a more all-around game. Defense, offensive rebounds and defensive boards: Pip made the game easier for us to play. But he may not ever get his due, not until he brings that other championship ring home."

This is a technical analysis, a basketball purist's take, because in matters that can't be quantified but mean everything--heart, courage, response to pressure--Jordan was incomparable. But the fact is, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, either, and for good reason. No one is more versatile than Pippen. "He's the best defender I've seen," Dunleavy says. "I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes."

Jackson wanted Pippen badly in L.A., but Buss never seriously considered going after him. "I thought it was meant to be," Jackson says. "I thought he was a godsend for us in L.A. For me to have to swallow it and move on was very difficult. On the Bulls he was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Or, as former Bull Joe Kleine puts it, "Michael was the father figure saying, 'You're grounded.' Pip was like Mom coming in to tell you everything's going to be all right."

Both are equally true. You have to take both the good and the bad and then weigh it according to whatever you value. Jordan had his issues yet that didn't prevent him from being the consensus GOAT. Pippen's personality flaws and leadership as opposed to Jordan's style both existed.

Spoiler:

Scottie, who hit six feet seven by the time he graduated, averaged 26.3 points and 10 rebounds a game and was named a consensus All-American in his senior year. Jerry Krause, who had spotted him early, made a few deft trades in order to draft him fifth overall in 1987. But Scottie was pegged as a traditional small forward and had a difficult time fitting into that role because he wasn’t a strong outside shooter. But he did have the rare skill of being able to grab a rebound and drive all the way through traffic to attack the basket at the other end. Guarding Michael in practice also turned Scottie into a formidable defender. But what impressed me most when I first started working with him was his ability to read what was happening on the floor and react accordingly. He’d been a point guard in high school and still had that kind of share-the-ball mentality. While Michael was always looking to score, Scottie seemed to be more interested in making sure the offense succeeded as a whole. In that respect, he modeled himself more after Magic Johnson than after Michael Jordan.

So in my second year as head coach I created a new position for Scottie—“point forward”—and had him share the job of moving the ball up court with the guards—an experiment that worked out far better than I expected. That switch unleashed a side of Scottie that had never been tapped, and he blossomed into a gifted multidimensional player with the ability to break games wide open on the fly. As he puts it, the shift “made me the player I wanted to be in the NBA.”

Scottie finished second on the team in scoring (17.8), rebounds (7.3), and steals (2.35) in 1990–91 and would be named to the All-Defense First Team the following year. The effect on the team was powerful. Shifting Scottie to point guard put the ball in his hands as much as in Michael’s, and it allowed M.J. to move to the wing and play a number of different roles in the offense, including leading the attack on transition. The shift also opened up possibilities for other players because Scottie was more egalitarian than Michael in the way he distributed the ball. All of a sudden a new, more collaborative group dynamic was evolving.

They're part of the whole package. One can either take everything into account and also in the process be more informed however one chooses to go or just selectively pay attention to whatever supports their bias like most do. It's up to each person to decide for himself.

[john248]

Leaning Frazier, but I don't know if I can vote for him until I hear more about (1) his shooting range and (2) how others think his defense would translate to the present NBA.

I think his jumper is legit with solid range...talking 15 to 18. Didn't put 20 because it didn't seem like he was out to where I thought the NCAA 3 point line is which I think is 21 feet. There's several games on YT, and it looks like he liked backing a guy down from the top left to get into his range to shoot his shot with some fakes to create some space, playing off-ball, coming off a screen, or pulling up baseline on both sides. Looked pretty relentless too. Like dude is looking for that shot, you know he is, and he makes it. So in this instance, can't say I care if he has say 3pt range or not since he looked dominant in the mid-range, and it translated for those playoff/championship runs.

[ThaRegul8r]

VOTE : Frazier

Gonna humbly cast my vote for Frazier here.
I like his superior scoring ability and his ability to really take over as a scoring threat more then I like Pippen's potentially superior defense and extra longevity (mostly in the form of roleplayer years).
I tend to think Pip benefited more individually from team circumstances.
That isn't to say that Walt didn't benefit from his circumstances also but I feel more confident in his portability as an individual threat.
Pippen for all his talent I think was noticeably less capable as a scorer then Frazier was as a defender.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with Pippen getting voted in though.
I definitely get the arguments for him.

+1

Not for your vote, but because you can see the opposite side of your choice. Many are completely unable to see any other side than their own.

I can see the arguments for both, and I'll probably put that the acceptable variance for me could have either ahead. I'm considering what I already have in addition to some of the arguments presented and I haven't decided yet.

[Basketballefan]

I think Frazier is given a little too much credit for his championships imo, he was never the definitive best player. Pippen played a nice second banana to 6 championships, which is impressive.

This isn't meant to dissuade you, but it's curious to say Frazier was never the definitive best player for the Knicks' championship runs as a point against Frazier when Pippen definitively wasn't the Bulls' best player in any of their championship seasons.

And Frazier led the Knicks to the Finals without Reed in '72 when Reed went down to injury, and I don't see how it can be said that Frazier wasn't the Knicks' best player in the '72-73 season.

Would Pippen win 2 rings with those knicks teams? Possibly, but would Walt win 6 titles next to Mj? I have my doubts.

And remember during Mj's first retirement, Pippen put up a season possibly better than any of Walt's and led them to within a game of ECF.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Another vote for Scottie Pippen over Frazier
This is not an easy one for me, and I might be conditioned by my limited knowledge of Clyde and the huge admiration I always had of Scottie when I started following the NBA in the early 90s.
Pippen is the only perimeter player that I remember who had the defensive impact of a big men, thanks to his versatility and ability to guard anybody 1-4 (I even remember him in good stretched against Hakeem).
On offensive he was not a great scorer, was quite a bad shooter, even from the FT line, and this is the reason why he's not ranked 10+ spots higher, but he was incredibly smart and knew how to run a team like a point guard.
I wish there were more +/- and RAPM of his prime years to see how he compares.
Frazier's resume is honestly impressive, he should have 2 FMVP's, but what's probably limiting him in my eyes i that I perceive his era as the weakest one for the NBA.
I could modify my vote later, as I keep changing my view on this!

[Jim Naismith]

Vote: Walt Frazier



Frazier (#25 in RPoY shares) was better relative to his contemporaries than Pippen (#51).

Frazier arguably was a top-3 player in the league for a 4-year stretch (1970-73).

Pippen never was a top-3 player.

Frazier's RPoY ranking

Code: Select all

1969   #8   Walt Frazier
1970   #3   Walt Frazier
1971   #2   Walt Frazier
1972   #3   Walt Frazier
1973   #2   Walt Frazier
1974   #6   Walt Frazier


Pippen's RPoY ranking

Code: Select all

1991   #6   Scottie Pippen
1992   #6   Scottie Pippen
1994   #6   Scottie Pippen
1995   #6   Scottie Pippen
1996   #7   Scottie Pippen
1997   #5   Scottie Pippen

[Texas Chuck]

Im a little surprised to see that the RPOY project never had Scottie a top 3 player and only once a top 5 player.

[Quotatious]

Im a little surprised to see that the RPOY project never had Scottie a top 3 player and only once a top 5 player.

His only chance to make the top 3 would be 1994 or 1995, but even then, you have Hakeem and D-Rob who were easily better, and Scottie has to compete with Shaq, Malone and Ewing, so it's rather unlikely that he was better than them...Maybe over Ewing, but I'd definitely take Shaq and Karl over Scottie. Barkley and Stockton were roughly comparable, too. That's about '94.

In '95, Hakeem, Shaq and D-Rob were clearly better, so he's definitely not top 3, then Malone, Ewing, Stockton, Barkley are all very close, or even guys like Drexler and Reggie, who had terrific seasons (I'd take Scottie over both, but definitely not over Malone - Ewing, Barkley and Stockton are easily justifiable, too).

[Texas Chuck]

I wasn't really arguing it, Q.

Just surprised. Back in real-time in the 90's I certainly thought of him as a top 5 guy. And I know he was 1st team all-NBA 3 years running (position specific obviously) and had a top 3 MVP finish the year Jordan was gone.

I trust the guys in that project more than my memory, but I was surprised to see it is all.