trex_8063 wrote:See, I disagree. To me, this is romanticizing Zeke. He's easy to romanticize because of the dazzling handles and because he didn't shirk from the notion of a little hero ball (especially on a big stage; i.e. playoffs/finals), and he further had a couple of noteworthy epic games doing those things (though no one seems to remember the games where he went 5 of 14 or 6 of 20, etc).
So, a quick peak.
Isiah was never a particularly efficient scorer, I'll give you that. He was better than Kidd (52.1% TS on higher volume in his 20s, fell off VERY sharply in his 30s; Kidd's at 49.8% in his 20s and didn't improve much thereafter aside from his first two years with Dirk in Dallas).
More importantly, though, as an overall offensive player, he was a 110+ ORTG guy in three consecutive seasons (111, 115 and 113) from 84-86, while playing 37 mpg and posting 21.2 ppg and 11.9 apg with 2.9 spg, posting a 53.3% TS (though that's not strong relative to league average) and an average ORTG of 113.
FWIW, Kidd's career-highs pre-Dirk are 52.6% TS and 111 ORTG (he was at 110 and 111 in 06 and 07, the only seasons he managed that before Dirk). He was a 106 ORTG player in his pre-Dirk career (50.0% TS).
So these are just two numbers, and we know that RAPM does speak more highly of his offensive impact. This is dubious, given the generally poor offensive showing of his teams and his individually poor scoring, but reflective of the fact that he was certainly making his teams better with his savvy playmaking and control over the offense. There's at least that, and pretty much everyone is in agreement over his palpable defensive impact.
My point was that a younger Isiah Thomas was producing individual offense at a level Kidd never managed, and in the process, those Pistons teams were 1st (111.5), 9th (109.6) and 7th (109.0) in team offense. They did pretty well, far better than Kidd's teams over his career.
The best "younger Isiah" offensive season is '85, no? As Kidd's best overall offensive season (factoring both role and volume against efficiency) I'd probably go with '99.
'85 Thomas
Per 100 Possessions: 25.5 pts, 16.6 ast, 4.5 tov, on TS% that was -1.4% compared to league average.
22.2 PER, .173 WS/48, ORtg +7.1 compared to league average.
'99 Kidd
Per 100 Possessions: 21.9 pts, 14.0 ast, 3.9 tov, on TS% that was +1.6% compared to league average.
22.5 PER, .188 WS/48, ORtg +10.8 compared to league average.
fwiw, also had PI ORAPM of +3.64 (13th best in the league that year).
So to me, a statement like "Kidd dreamed of being as good on O...." just doesn't appear to carry a lot of truth.
This is mildly disingenuous, given that 99 was a lockout-shortened season with the lowest league-average TS% seen since the 76-77 season and a league average ORTG of 102.2. That's something which should be mentioned; we saw the same thing in 11-12, the other lockout season: offense was BRUTAL in that year, the lowest we'd seen since the nasty lows of the early 2000s, and for exactly the same reasons. So looking at relative production over a shortened sample size is a little dodgy as far as legitimacy of analysis. Remember that Kidd's Suns were a 105.8 ORTG team and they played 50 games.
I don't to be misconstrued as saying Kidd was some scrub, I mean I'm preparing to vote for him in the next 3-5 spots myself anyway because I generally respect what he accomplished as a player, but Isiah's peak offensive value was clearly higher than the best Kidd brought to the table in my view.
That said, I was being hyperbolic; the absolute apex of Kidd's offensive performance does resemble the low end of Isiah's peak, so clearly I was exaggerating "colorfully," to borrow Chuck's term. And of course, between the two, Isiah's actual peak value was only a season longer than Kidd's in terms of that high-end offensive production and they are otherwise quite similar in that regard, as Isiah stepped back from his volume playmaking role more and more under Daly's watch and the Pistons began to concentrate more on defense. The 84 Pistons were +3.9 relative to league average ORTG, but they still managed to swing around and be +3.0 in their first title season (and +2.5 when they met LA in the Finals in 88), and then fell off of a cliff thereafter. Isiah, FWIW, never shot 45%+ from the field after the 89 season, nor did he post 51%+ TS thereafter either. His individual scoring efficiency died after the first title and with that went the team offense as he also moved further and further below league average not just in scoring efficiency but ORTG. Of course, he was injured for nearly half the season in 91, had something of a bounce-back year in 92 (but still with the diminished efficiency) and was thereafter crap in his final two seasons.
I think his primacy on those teams is demonstrable, though obviously other factors abound, not the least of which is the presence/absence of Adrian Dantley, whose insane volume/efficiency combo should not be overlooked as a potential overturn of everything I just said, since he left halfway through the 89 season while managing 18 a night on over 61% TS / 122 ORTG.
TL;DR, I'm not kicking Kidd to the curb, I was using a bit of hyperbole to reflect the fact that peak Isiah was better than peak Kidd. A bit better at scoring, a bit better at creating for others. 84, 87 and 90 were all wicked playoff runs for Isiah, too, and he was a 111 ORTG player in the postseason if you ignore 92 (his last and injury-riddled season), which is comparable to Kidd's absolute apex RS performance pre-Dirk, let alone playoffs. Playoff performance is important, and Thomas definitely shined there to a greater extent than did Kidd in terms of offense.
) take issue with what seem like some misleading statements above (or at least some over-simplified linear logic)......
