Best Athlete: Kevin Durant vs. Anthony Davis vs. Giannis Antetokounmpo

[AussieBuck]

Exactly, and he's not even in the ballpark right now, so Giannis' superfan club is going to have to admit he's either not as athletic, or Davis is just way smarter and more skilled.

What I've gotten from this board is that Giannis is more gifted in every area. Athleticism, skills, and IQ.

Giannis being compared to both KG and now Davis really has you at the end of your tether eh?

About as badly as the Anthony Randolph craze did. There is always a ball handling tall guy that gets compared to players that are substantially better than him on both ends, to some varying degree. There is always a guy that is supposedly taller, more athletic, more skilled, and higher IQ than some of the most statistically dominant players ever, yet he's a decidedly average or below player.

It's par for course for RealGM. I've seen it a lot. Lots of practice phenoms with unsubstantiated mind blowing numbers or measurements that no one has proof of. Giannis isn't the first young guy to get a bit overrated by his fans, and he won't be the last.

In all seriousness, some people think he's the most athletic of this group, and he's more skilled than Davis (but less than Durant). Someone has to explain to me why he's a substantially worse player than the other two if that's the case.

I hate to dumb it down to this, but I think my explanation is the simplest, and bares out in the numbers:

Durant is the least explosive athlete, but the most highly skilled in terms of offense (by a lot really). His numbers at the combine, and his athleticism markers(Things like rebounds, blocks, steals, dunks have always bore that out). He's a decent, fluid athlete for 6'11, but he's absolutely all time great in terms of skills at that height and length.

Davis is the least skilled in terms of ball handling and passing creativity by a lot here, but he's the most explosive and dominant athlete. And again, it bares out in the athleticism markers, and he's able to use that athleticism gap and a jump shot to be a substantially more dominant player on both ends and the glass than Giannis, but Durant is still the best offensive player by a fair margin.

Giannis isn't all time great in either athleticism or offensive skill set, but he's probably 2nd place in both, but the other guys stand out as the best in the league or close to it in their respective strength. Sometimes it's better to be dominant in one facet and a little weaker in the other as opposed to the jack of all trades.

Got to say I'm pretty giddy that you've gone back to the Magic Randolph thing again. Giannis came over as a skinny 18 year playing out of position coming from a nothing league in Greece. He's improved massively year on year and will be still be 21 for the first month or so of the season. He'll be a superstar soon enough, not many people get there this young.

[Whirrun]

From team USA's game against Nigeria:

Catch behind the arch, one dribble, euro, dunk:

https://vine.co/v/5AdmgvjxiK0

[pelifan]

NO KG it's time we stop arguing. We've made a very valid point about AD being better than Giannis at the same age when ADs game was based solely on athleticism that hasn't been adequately refuted. We know that AD is not rigid in the hips, slow, or is more bigman like because we've watched him for more than 5 minutes. We know he shows guard like mobility moving without the ball, coming off screens, face up step backs, quick first steps, and good change of direction. We know just how fast Anthony Davis is. We also know that he jumps better than both players from a standstill and is quicker off the floor. And not un importantly we know we are in the majority on this opinion because of the poll results. Why continue to argue with people who just post clip after clip of guys crossing over players and going coast to coast and basically calling advanced ball handling athleticism. They clearly don't watch Anthony Davis or Kevin Garnett play apparently because they think the guys are stiffs because they play F/C and aren't P&R ball handlers.

I mean even if you think Davis is not clearly a better athlete than both, you have to at least concede he's also basically a 6'10"+ guard.
Because it's apparently not true if there isn't a YouTube clip:

Watch on YouTube

[Pachinko_]

They're similar, you're splitting hairs
AD is a probably bit stronger, KD a bit more explosive, and Giannis a bit more flexible/agile

Probably doesn't mean anything but KD always freaks me out with how little he sweats and how relaxed and fresh he looks even at the end of the game. Super efficient body and amazing how much he achieves with so little muscle and seemingly little effort. He's like, mechanically superior, if that makes sense.

[Whirrun]

NO KG it's time we stop arguing. We've made a very valid point about AD being better than Giannis at the same age when ADs game was based solely on athleticism that hasn't been adequately refuted. We know that AD is not rigid in the hips, slow, or is more bigman like because we've watched him for more than 5 minutes. We know he shows guard like mobility moving without the ball, coming off screens, face up step backs, quick first steps, and good change of direction. We know just how fast Anthony Davis is. We also know that he jumps better than both players from a standstill and is quicker off the floor.

And the rest of us realize you two are extremely biased and will go through great lengths to ignore very obvious examples of athleticism that counter your opinions in favor of a narrative you've already convinced yourselves of.

And not un importantly we know we are in the majority on this opinion because of the poll results.

Davis is tied with Giannis, while the majority of voters do not believe Davis is the best athlete.

Why continue to argue with people who just post clip after clip of guys crossing over players and going coast to coast and basically calling advanced ball handling athleticism. They clearly don't watch Anthony Davis or Kevin Garnett play apparently because they think the guys are stiffs because they play F/C and aren't P&R ball handlers.

We're still waiting for one of you to address:

"Lateral quickness, acceleration, balance, flexibility; hip, thigh, and core strength all play a role in handling the ball & slashing at an elite level. Crossovers, hesitations, step backs, in & outs, etc are all quick twitch moves. I'm unsure how anyone can deny this."

I mean even if you think Davis is not clearly a better athlete than both, you have to at least concede he's also basically a 6'10"+ guard.

He plays nothing like a 6'10 guard, that's our point. He flatly doesn't have the athleticism to play from the perimeter, and this is reflected everywhere from his transition numbers, to drives, PnR, etc. He is a PnR big with a great face up game and a good jumper.

Sure, he's quick, and he's fast, and he's agile, and he's bursty: but he's still a big. He moves like one, he plays like one.

Because it's apparently not true if there isn't a YouTube clip:

Playing passing lanes and finishing on the break is not comparable to the displays of athleticism that routinely reflect Giannis & KD getting wherever they want to on the floor on the ball and finishing through traffic despite being uncannily long + tall for their roles, positions, and play styles. What you've posted is not something that is beyond the physical capabilities of Deandre Jordan, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, etc.

Griffin

Watch on YouTube

Jordan

Watch on YouTube

Drummond

Watch on YouTube

----------------------------------------------------------------------


But you won't see any of those 4 handling the ball and beating people off the bounce like this:

Watch on YouTube

Or this:

Watch on YouTube

Because that isn't something they have. The reason you cannot find examples of Davis doing similar isn't because he doesn't want to, or because the Pelicans are blinded to the value of a 6'10 guy with premier guard skills, but because he lacks the athletic qualities that allow for players like KD & Giannis to move as fluidly as they they do around the floor. Nothing more, nothing less. Davis is an athletic marvel, no doubt, but he doesn't break the mold. This comparison is firmly between Giannis and KD.

[NO-KG-AI]

Steve Nash is a way better ball handler in every way than these guys, so he's definitely the most athletic. Ball handling is clearly the key. Correct? I'm not "refuting" the ball handling claim because it's stupid as hell. Guys have been amazing ball handlers while being a crappy athlete. There has never been a terrible athlete that was an elite above the rim. There has never been a guy that was elite at blocking shots, rebounding the ball, and dunking that was a bad athlete. Ball handling is an amazing skill to have, potentially the best thing a player can have as an NBA player, but you don't have to be athletic to do it. Also I just don't get the criticism, like I said, Davis creates a ton of good looks and has an insanely low turnover rate even with a simplistic handle. You know why? Because he's overwhelming whoever guards him with athleticism.

Also, no one has explained yet why Giannis is so far inferior to Davis in every measure as a player, despite Davis be dominant because of his athleticism. Davis uses freakish athletic ability to be an elite player, despite still developing his skills and body. Giannis... Doesn't. What's the issue? He's a pretty good player, but if he's clearly more athletic than a guy that is crushing it based on athleticism, what is he lacking? Serious question. He's not a great jump shooter, and he's pretty young and new to the game, but dominant athletes have always found a way to make a much bigger mark on the game, and we're talking about guys that were way less gifted with the ball still finding ways to make a bigger mark.

Like I said, I don't think Giannis has a major problem that's holding him back from being elite. I think if he were as explosive athletically as Davis, or had the shooting and touch at the rim of Durant, he'd already be there, and we wouldn't have to wait for him to make the jump from good to great.

Likewise, if you strip Durant and Davis' shooting ability down,to a bare level, Durant wouldn't be able to hang with Davis at all. So much of his dominance is based on scoring and shooting, and you can attribute that all to athleticism if you want, but I don't.



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[AussieBuck]

Giannis is younger and less experienced. He'll be the better player soon enough on their current trajectories.

[MyUniBroDavis]

First off, the bolded is the reason why this may very well be the last time I respond to you.

Do you have those measurements? Because according to the numbers not only does transition represent a larger part of KD's offense relative to AD, he also finished with 200 more transition points. In fact, the only players to pick up more points than KD in transition were:

Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Steph Curry
LeBron James
Isiah Thomas
John Wall
Guards & LeBron James.

Hardly fair, it's a bigger part of Durante game, and he is extremely efficient, but it's not as if Davis isn't good in transition.

Out of all players with 100 plus possessions, he is first, at 1.36ppp Kd is at 1.33ppp

Also, consider Davis is a worse shooter and a worse free throw shooter.

Yes, Davis played less games, but if his advantage were as large as you suggested than Durant wouldn't have finished the season with 50 more defensive rebounds despite Davis missing 10 more games. Further, durability is one of the primary attributes of athleticism.
You had no problem comparing their rebounding numbers despite the difference in positional roles and using that as evidence that Davis is the better athlete, so chill with the holier than thou stuff. Fact is, relative to their respective positions, Durant is the superior rebounder, and that's the most appropriate comparison, no?

Davis averages 1.8 contested rebounds, good for 13th in the nba. Durant averages 1.2, good for 26th.

Durant does get more rebounds per rebound chance than Davis, but there are 2 problems with this.

1, Davis is elite in this category, getting 65.7% of his rebound opportunities, behind only deandre and Drummond, and 2, Durant generally won't rebound against the centers as much (looking at avg rebound distance, while Durant should be further for obvious reasons he is a clear outlier).

Lateral quickness, acceleration, balance, flexibility; hip, thigh, and core strength all play a role in handling the ball & slashing at an elite level. Crossovers, hesitations, step backs, in & outs, etc are all quick twitch moves. I'm unsure how anyone can deny this.
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[/quote]

So Durant has a bigger advantage in lateral quickness, balance, and flexibility. (Acceleration and explosiveness are basically the same thing, just one is more stretched out).

Hip, thigh, and core strength? You realize this also plays a part in, well, strength, right? Davis is arguably faster, and clearly more explosive (let's not act as if lebron really sprinted in that race, he was running at a moderately fast pace, he was going full Throttle)

And strength wise, let's not act like Durant or Gianni's are stronger than AD. They aren't. Period.

Here's the thing. I agree that Gianni's and Durant are more fluid than AD. But Davis isn't like some deandre Jordan. He is very fluid for his size. VERY. when's the last time you saw a big men jab step hesitate and fade away, and do that stuff? Exactly.

As for the "perfect body" there's one thing. Davis at this point is around 6ft11-7ft, but his wingspan allegedly grew to 7ft7 3/4. So yeah like he wins.

It's not about speed and stuff, it's about the combination of size, strength, and speed. You could definitely argue (and I think so tbh) that Davis is faster than both in a foot race, and he is much stronger than either of them. He is more "physically gifted" than either, and requires less effort to jump and do that stuff than either of them.

Let me put it this way. Give 2015 davis Durant's jump shot. Who scares you more? Better yet, take it away from both of them.

As for ball handling, that stuff is true. But, ya know, the most important part is the ball handling part. And "ball handling ability" hardly proves any of that is true, it's simply stuff needed. Going by that logic, John wall can handle the ball better than steph curry, or every street baller is more athletic and nimble than the average nba sg or sf.

Also, let's talk about their respective ceilings, instead of projections. If we are going there for Gianni's arguement

Alright, one guy has the ceiling of the top of Bill gates house.

The other has the ceiling of the Hubble telescope

Like holy crap you have no idea how many things that had to go wrong went wrong for Davis this year. If you take 2015 Davis and give him a legitimate good coach then that's already higher than Gianni's will ever reach. You don't understand how incredibly fffffffed up 2015 was.

2016 there were injuries and he just didn't finish well at times.

[NO-KG-AI]

Giannis is younger and less experienced. He'll be the better player soon enough on their current trajectories.

Ah, there it is.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Giannis is younger and less experienced. He'll be the better player soon enough on their current trajectories.

Ah, there it is.

literally died when I saw it lol

I find it ridiculous how after having a ridiculous 2nd year, arguably the best at age 3rd year period, a down 4th year where he was adjusting to a completely new system makes everyone forget.

[NO-KG-AI]

Giannis is younger and less experienced. He'll be the better player soon enough on their current trajectories.

Ah, there it is.

literally died when I saw it lol

I find it ridiculous how after having a ridiculous 2nd year, arguably the best at age 3rd year period, a down 4th year where he was adjusting to a completely new system makes everyone forget.

You don't even have to look that far down the pipeline. I don't know what trajectory he is looking at, but down here in reality land, Davis was more productive as a rookie than Giannis was in his 3rd season. He has to catch up to that version of Anthony Davis first and foremost.

[pelifan]

Giannis is younger and less experienced. He'll be the better player soon enough on their current trajectories.

Age 21 Davis vs age 21 Giannis on their 2nd season in the league there is no comparison. Davis 21 and 10. Davis had less experience being 6'10" as Giannis has had as well.

To the 2nd point, if you really feel 100% confident in that statement it's homerism to say the least.

[BasketballFan7]

Guys, why do you feed an argument that you have no chance of winning, even if you know you are right?

By the logic in this thread:

Kyrie Irving must rate REALLY highly among point guards in athleticism. Because, despite being weaker / slower than many others, his handle, shot creativity and coordination allow him to get to and convert at the rim.

[Whirrun]

Steve Nash is a way better ball handler in every way than these guys, so he's definitely the most athletic.

- Steve Nash has never been a premier slasher.

- Durant & Giannis are premier slashers.

GA = 7.2 drives per game / 52 fg% / 70 ft% / 29 pass% / 8 ast%

KD = 4.6 drives per game / 57 fg% / 88 ft% / 24 pass% / 8 ast%

- Davis is the opposite.

AD = 1.2 drives per game / 53fg% / 69 ft% / 5 pass% / 0 ast%

Ball handling is clearly the key. Correct?

Nope, beating perimeter players and creating from the perimeter was the key. Giannis & KD can do it, Davis cannot.

I'm not "refuting" the ball handling claim because it's stupid as hell.

What's stupid as hell is you sitting around here pretending that quick twitch moves don't require the use of quick twitch muscle fibers. This is basic biology.

Guys have been amazing ball handlers while being a crappy athlete.

Name one premier slasher that was a poor athlete. I'll wait.

There has never been a terrible athlete that was an elite above the rim.

Guess it's a good thing KD and GA are elite at the rim! KD is better than AD even.

There has never been a guy that was elite at blocking shots, rebounding the ball, and dunking that was a bad athlete. Ball handling is an amazing skill to have, potentially the best thing a player can have as an NBA player, but you don't have to be athletic to do it. Also I just don't get the criticism, like I said, Davis creates a ton of good looks and has an insanely low turnover rate even with a simplistic handle. You know why? Because he's overwhelming whoever guards him with athleticism.

No one said Davis wasn't an excellent athlete, straw man. He's simply inferior to KD and Giannis in this respect.

Also, no one has explained yet why Giannis is so far inferior to Davis in every measure as a player, despite Davis be dominant because of his athleticism. Davis uses freakish athletic ability to be an elite player, despite still developing his skills and body. Giannis... Doesn't. What's the issue? He's a pretty good player, but if he's clearly more athletic than a guy that is crushing it based on athleticism, what is he lacking? Serious question. He's not a great jump shooter, and he's pretty young and new to the game, but dominant athletes have always found a way to make a much bigger mark on the game, and we're talking about guys that were way less gifted with the ball still finding ways to make a bigger mark.

Pretty sure this was answered on the first or second page, but Giannis is the superior athlete, Davis is more skilled and plays with a superior basketball IQ. Simple.

[Whirrun]

Guys, why do you feed an argument that you have no chance of winning, even if you know you are right?

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but the Davis crowd is losing. Both in argumentation, and the poll.

By the logic in this thread:

Kyrie Irving must rate REALLY highly among point guards in athleticism. Because, despite being weaker / slower than many others, his handle, shot creativity and coordination allow him to get to and convert at the rim.

Yes, Kyrie is one of the better athletes at PG. This is news?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

If you want to talk about explosiveness, you need to look at what a player can do from a standing still position.
Durant is really nothing special in such situations, while Davis is really insane.
Also, I suspect some people don't have it clear what a "first step" actually is.

[Whirrun]

If you want to talk about explosiveness, you need to look at what a player can do from a standing still position.
Durant is really nothing special in such situations, while Davis is really insane.
Also, I suspect some people don't have it clear what a "first step" actually is.

Describe to us what a first step is, and how 6'11 KD is able to consistently beat defenders without one?

I'll wait.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Off the dribble?

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[Whirrun]

Off the dribble?

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So, he doesn't move... He just dribbles the ball against the floor and somehow teleports to the basket?

Why isn't Blake Griffin a great slasher? Has an excellent handle for a big.

[MiltownHawkeye]

There are Pelicans fans in this thread that think Davis has comparable lateral quickness to Durant and Giannis? This is seriously a thing being disputed?

Also, just because dexterity and coordination go into what makes an athlete doesn't mean you have to think Steph Curry is a super-athlete.

Also, you don't need to think Giannis is a better player to be a better athlete than Davis.

Lots of ridiculous strawmans getting tossed out here.