Fundamentals21 wrote:It almost feels like we've been watching different players. You think it's no slight, but you're placing him 2 tiers lower than he really is.
- His defensive impact measures to be above average. A guard like Oscar Robertson would have to be roughly a Jason Kidd level defender to equal Dirk's impact on that end. He can certainly be an important piece to a good defense, even if he's not an anchor.
- Dirk is #8 all time in RS Defensive Rebounds.
- #15 all time in Defensive Rebounding % in Playoffs - Right between Tim Duncan and David Robinson. I think your assessment on his rebounding is off by a good amount.
I can't reconcile those rebounding stats with actual rebounding numbers that aren't that great. Here's a comparison with the players you mentioned:
Dirk -- career 7.8 TRB average, averaged double-figures in TRBs 0 times
Duncan -- career 10.8 TRB average, averaged double-figures in TRBs 13 times
Robinson -- career 10.6 TRB average, averaged double figures in TRBs 9 times
Dirk was a better rebounder in the playoffs, with a career 10.0 TRB playoff average, compared to Duncan at 11.4 and Robinson at 10.6. But we shouldn't disregard the regular season numbers or focus solely on the defensive end where Dirk did well and ignore the offensive end where Dirk didn't do well.
As for defense, he benefits by being part of a good defensive unit and having very good defenders around him. Like you said, it almost feels like we've been watching different players, because when I've watched Dirk (not just recently but over his career), I've seen a guy who is good at team position defense but not a good individual defender and not good at blocks (0.9 per game RS and PS compared to 2.2/2.3 for Duncan and 3.0/2.5 for Robinson). The year the Mavs won the title, Dirk was 11th on the team in defensive box +/-. On his most successful teams, he was always surrounded by great defenders. I'm not saying he's James Harden bad, just that he's a below average defender.
Fundamentals21 wrote:- I think your post implies that it's somewhat of a soft game that limits the offense. He seems to have the agility to take bigmen off the dribble and take it straight to the basket. What here limits my offense from being great?- Pick and Roll/High Post - One of the best in any era.
He is excellent in the high post PnR, but that's not because he takes it straight to the basket. He either uses the screen for an outside shot or, if he rolls, most often drives partway and does his patented step-back. A 7-footer who takes only 14.4% of his shots inside 3 feet isn't a finisher. Compare that to Duncan, who took 30.9% of his shots inside 3 feet, and Duncan is a guy well known for his outside shot.
I never characterized it as soft. Dirk has competitive fire, and I'd never characterize him as soft. I'm just discussing what he does well and what he doesn't.
Fundamentals21 wrote:- Playmaking - How much is this hurting my offense? I give him the ball, what is going wrong for the rest of my team due to his lack of assist totals? What limited the teams he worked with? At most you need an Old Jason Kidd to provide additional playmaking? I don't feel my team's lacking anything because of this critique - it's certainly not a hole you will have a difficult time overcoming. Dirk plays the type of game that DOES allow teammates to have good years in Dallas - namely centers and even average to mediocre guards like Monta Ellis. He benefits his teammates immensely.
Of course Dirk is helping when he scores, and no, I'm not expecting him to be Jason Kidd. But there are numerous all-time greats who were very good in multiple areas, and there are numerous all-time bigs who were far better playmakers than Dirk. Karl Malone, despite playing with John Stockton the vast majority of his career, still averaged 3.6 assists. Tim Duncan averaged 3.0. David Robinson averaged 2.5, the same as Dirk. Kevin McHale, known as "the black hole" because once the ball went into him, it never came out, averaged 1.7 assists. Dirk's not a black hole, but he's not great in that area, either.
I'm just trying to fairly assess the guy, and that requires looking at all areas, not disregarding the ones he doesn't shine in because he's so good at what he does well.
Fundamentals21 wrote:- I actually think overall you're massively underrating his Midrange ability as a scorer. I don't know if allergic to the paint really makes sense here. It appears like you're criticizing him for his play style more than anything else. Dirk can take it to the paint, but the Midrange has to be where most of his shots come from, as the spacing opens up the entire offense. The center benefits, the open man in the corner benefits, a guard with a good drive game benefits, etc. What is my offense missing?
No, mid-range is what Dirk does best, so I'm not underrating that at all. By "allergic to the paint," I meant the extremely low percentage of shots he took within 10 feet -- 14.4% from 0-3 feet, 8.4% from 3-10 feet, which means a whopping 77.2% of his shots came outside of 10 feet. That is what it is. You can spin that to say that he creates spacing that opens up opportunities for others, which it does and I agree with, but spacing is not a benefit that trumps everything else, and you can't claim that he finishes well at the rim or draws free throws at an elite level or stuff like that when he doesn't.
It seems to me that those promoting Dirk as a candidate at this level are disregarding his weaknesses or using one view of the stats prism to overstate his impact in certain areas. To me, a fair assessment requires looking at everything.
